What We Learned in 23

This. It will happen, whether by CBA or something else. This season is proof that backups can win. I agree that you need good QB play, and we have seen teams win with backups when they adjust. Our team didn't, which is unfortunate. Our offense did some pretty impressive things when we brought in this really smart person who didn't know the offense, but when he got shoehorned into the offense, look what happened. I still blame KOC for that. We probably would be in the playoffs right now had the offense been adjusted to Dobb's talents. I doubt we're hoisting a Lombardi at the end of the season, but it's still a very different conversation that we're having right now.

To ratsalad's point though, you do need good QB play... but what I think is really missing is that you need good coaching that takes advantage of it. I do agree that we're going to have to draft someone at some point. I'm not sure the right answer is to trade away the entire future for a shot a Williams or May. But we're going to have to take a guy and develop him and probably adjust the system to some extent to fit the talents of the guy we picked. Sure, pick a guy that best fits the system we're trying to build, but where there are gaps, adjust.

I also do think that there is something to be said about not being the perpetual team drafting high. It's pretty hard to escape that cycle once you're there. The Lions have been there since the 90s. The same is true with the Browns and Bengals. It's one inept move after another chasing a Powerball ticket or that one penny stock for lack of a better term. The Bears have drafted how many high QBs, and they still don't know if they have the answer with Fields? And the big reason for that has more to do with their inability to put talent around the guy they have and develop him, which is my second point. It's not enough to just pick a guy, throw him into the deep end, and hope he figures it out. Yeah, once and a while a guy will. Most don't. That's a terrible strategy. Pick a guy, develop him, and build a system around him that maximizes his strengths and hides his weaknesses to the best of your abilities. Some things like accuracy can only be partially fixed by coaching out bad habits and repetition. The rest is brain development, which just takes time. I had hoped that this was KAM and KOC's plan. I still hope that is the case, though after what I saw this year, I'm not very confident in KOC anymore. I'm really hoping KAM sees that, because if he doesn't, this franchise is effed.

No one is building winners around these qbs though.

No one is building winners around these qbs though. Another thread points out changes with hall, another showed I believe 4 early throws with open WRs short on crossing routes. The narratives still exist though. It’s not an issue of if the offense has changed or if there are short routes. There are and it has. To the extent it should happen is more of the debate but too many are ignoring the actual context of what really has happened.

Dobbs and mullens already have a history as well. We saw what even shannahan was able to get out of this type of situation and it was worse (around a year they made the sb). The reality is everyone knows these aren’t good qbs which is why they are available so cheap. Dobbs had success running an offense defenses were preparing for and making off script plays on key downs. When teams took away that ability with a spy he struggled in a major way as tape was now out there with him in this offense. On top of this the defense let in 27+ points in 4/8 games as well.

When shannahan had mullens as starter with a good team around him they went 5-11. Dobbs is 4-18 outside of mn. We are 3-5 with a more questionable situation than sf and similar level backup QBs. People just got way too hyped off the early success with Dobbs. I even noted this back then when not a single other poster than myself saw us below .500 after that Atlanta game. Despite what is typical in these situations, even with a shannahan/Super Bowl type of team in down years.

I'm not saying you can turn these guys into the next Joe Montana or something like that. I'm saying you need to do what you can to give them a chance to succeed. Flacco in Cleveland isn't running the same offense that Watson ran. Browning didn't run the same offense that Burrow did. Mishnew didn't run the same either. That's the point. Yes, KOC did run a short pass or crossing route here or there, but the bulk of his throws have been the same 5-7 step drops. That's his default, every single time. And his run game sucks. And his screen game sucks.

I think my bigger concern is who is making who look good. Is KOC making Kirk look good or is the other way around? After this season, I think Kirk is the one making KOC look good. KOC looks utterly lost right now. He certainly doesn't look like some offensive genius.

That defense was 2nd in the league in ppd lol. It was still playing amazing it’s just that the offense took a complete nosedive when Kirk got here. It was still top 10 the following year too so definitely good enough to win. We just needed the offense to step it up from with keenum but it wasn’t really able to unfortunately. I think an elite qb would have had a legit chance to win with that type of talent (even Kirk cousins got us ranked liked 2-4 and 9th those two years in sb odds). There was plenty of talent there still we didn’t lose tons of players until 2020.

I do agree now we have a long way to go to recover. That’s what I’ve been saying since 2020 and it’s why keeping Kirk around and trying to patch holes never made sense. We didn’t even have success with teams like the first two seasons, now we are going to with mediocre talent around him? We needed to do a real rebuild but refused. Now we are stuck in a similar position after a couple more poor drafts and pushing money back.

We need to have a really good draft (hitting on qb and hopefully dline) while getting our cap situation right this offseason. That would set our future up much better than previous seasons of patching up holes around Kirk with limited cap (by pushing it back). We likely take a bit of a down year next season but after that should be in a much better position moving forward.

No. You are an example of what’s wrong with the new generation of stat nerds who take something like that and formulate an opinion based on that number without having the benefit of context.

The defense was not anywhere near as good . If you like stats look at the third down stats. The defense and coaching wasn’t good enough in 2017 to win a championship. It took a miracle on offense to win the game.

Rhodes was a huge part of 2017 and he dropped off in 2018. 250 points given up in 2017 and 340 in 2018. #1 defense dropped to #9 the next year. Dropping that much on defense means you are no longer a championship defense yet fans are still clinging to that excuse for not repeating the success. 260 1st downs given up in 17 and 303 in 18.


And on offense we got a new coordinator and new scheme that was so bad he got fired early. And is now in the minor leagues


And yet the blame for not winning a championship is blamed on the QB. The QB stats if you like them are one of the things that went up. 30/10 vs 25/15. That is the stat specifically controlled by the QB. More points passing. Less turnovers by passing.