This won't be an easy fix

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vikergirl
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 26, 2023 21:12:19 GMT -6 via mobile legendsofthenorth, ukvikings, and 1 more like this

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Post by vikergirl on Sept 26, 2023 21:12:19 GMT -6

There are some people that are literally mad that both KAM and KOC were hired. Also fans can be impatient and want instant gratification but there is no instant gratification in a process of rebuilding, competitive or otherwise. There are people mad at the argument of culture in the locker room or team. Some people think well you make a boatload of money, you need to be a robot, shut up and play. But this is the world we live in. It's not old era football.

Some people are not patient period. But it's a newer regime dealing with the competitive rebuild mandate and recognizing that it is not going as planned. Last year was a fun, crazy and wild ride. This is a realignment of the universe and part of it is luck correcting. There is the cleaning up of the previous regime and trying to create a new one. It is trying to get things to come together and figure out next steps. More big decisions will need to be made. At some point, they are going to have to take a shot at a qb. Will Hunter walk and will Cousins move on?

Personally, I think the idea of starting over with a new coach and GM next year would be dumb as hell. Why? Because you have to give enough time for things to come together but no one wants to hear that. They have to do better in the draft. They have to be smarter with resources. They have to improve the OL and defense. There are a lot of things that have to happen. And yes of course I want the team to win but I don't want a revolving door of coaches and GM's. It won't be an easy fix. In fact it is going to be downright painful but the reality is staring everyone in the face and I am going to ride it out

ukvikings
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 26, 2023 21:23:06 GMT -6 via mobile legendsofthenorth and vikergirl like this

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Post by ukvikings on Sept 26, 2023 21:23:06 GMT -6

Whenever the competitive rebuild phase started to tilt more towards rebuild through our record, that would start in essence a two year clock. That clock involves moving on from Kirk, actually drafting a QB high for the first time in ages, eating dead cap, getting one set of high picks from a reset year(edge rusher please!), and then having a ton of cap space with a second year QB coupled with young talent accumulated in the 23-25 drafts alongside their stars(JJ, Darrisaw, Hock) to be real contenders for the first time since 17.

The most common misconception I see, which will turn more folks against Kwesi if they don’t agree with his QB pick this year, is thinking the cap clearing moves recently will mean we’ll have all this space in 24. We just won’t. He also won’t sign marquee guys for multiple reasons, one of which being getting high comp picks for the first time in years.

The question for me will be whether the public pressure this season and off-season impacts anything with Kwesi. Personally I think the criticism is over the top with the only valid criticism being the complete 2022 draft. I think once Kirk is gone and the edict to stay playoff level competitive is gone in 2024, Kwesi will get an actual chance and we’ll see how it goes.

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This won't be an easy fix Sept 26, 2023 21:40:22 GMT -6 HunterMorrow likes this

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Sept 26, 2023 21:40:22 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2023 17:25:04 GMT -6 FreeBird | AJ Hanson said:

It. Takes. Time.

Bad apples rise to the top pretty fast. I want KAM gone after this year, if for nothing else than I dont want him drafting our QBOTF. KAM had a chance to start over when he came here but he left everything as is. As a GM hes signed 2 bad contracts, and hasnt signed at least 1 he should have.

Id personally give KOC to the end of the year to give up play calling, and concentrate as a HC. Zimmer didnt know how to do this either.

Ted Glover
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 26, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -6 Skol Troll likes this

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Post by Ted Glover on Sept 26, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2023 20:58:41 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Let's say we didn't pay Kirk this season. What rookie quarterback and free agent acquisitions save our season? We can then apply that to next season.

The season is underway, so I don't see any impact signings that can turn around a -7 turnover margin after three games; they're going to have to figure out on their own.

Sept 26, 2023 20:58:41 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

We have to nail the draft and then supplement through free agency. That's not the case, and doubt is creeping in.

I agree. He's had two drafts, one looks really bad, one looks promising, but both are too early to tell. Free agency has been limited because of the cap, imo. I just don't get why people want to run Kwesi out of town, but were willing to give Rick the benefit of the doubt, year after year, when Rick got the team into this cycle of bad drafts, which lead to bad contracts and extensions, and mid free agent signings because of dwindling cap space.

Run through GM's and coaches every two years you become as dysfunctional as the Browns. I don't get the impatience here after such a short time here.

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This won't be an easy fix Sept 26, 2023 21:58:24 GMT -6 via mobile Skol Troll likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 26, 2023 21:58:24 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -6 Ted Glover said:

Run through GM's and coaches every two years you become as dysfunctional as the Browns. I don't get the impatience here after such a short time here.

I'd ignore the crazies suggesting firing KAM and KO. For now...

But if we're having a lot of the same conversations a year from now? I think it's fair to entertain the idea of not wanting to see Year 4.

We really can't, as the kids say, FAFO with our Big Three on offense (JJ, Darrisaw, and Hock). There needs to be a clear Purple Path Forward SOON. The 2022 draft is like a pee-stained wet blanket killing the optimism for this new regime. Sucks...

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This won't be an easy fix Sept 26, 2023 23:04:37 GMT -6 via mobile HunterMorrow and kmillard like this

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Post by comet52 on Sept 26, 2023 23:04:37 GMT -6

Selling the notion that this team is on some path to greatness if only we'll all just sit back and wait takes genuine chutzpah considering that literally nothing has happened since the regime change that suggests a better foundation is being built.

Using stock Viking p.r. bullsh*t like "the Wilfs are patient" to support it is pure comedy gold. The Wilfs need patience because so far, 18 years of their mediocre management has produced not so much as a trip to the SB.

The g.m. keeps showing us he's in over his head, and the year one bump for the rah-rah HC is in the distant rear view mirror as his play calling and game management look very shaky. The cupboard is bare on D and the only path for competency at QB going forward is to waste more time and money going nowhere with Kirk Cousins.

There's a significant chance this team is headed for multiple years of double digit losses based on what I can see. No doubt we'll all appreciate the Wilf's patience while they stick it out with their new dynamic duo and get guys to write soothing p.r. about how it's not so bad, just be patient! Caveat-- that doesn't extend to the fans who died waiting for the team to actually accomplish something like hiring a genuinely great g.m. or h.c. or winning something more than an annual NFL participation trophy.

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

Minniman
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 0:36:52 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid, HunterMorrow, and 1 more like this

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Post by Minniman on Sept 27, 2023 0:36:52 GMT -6

Don't even get me started.

KAM immediately signed Cousins to a "uber guaranteed no trade" contract, and then he signed Thielen to an awful contract when the Vikings had all of the leverage.

Re-signing Bradbury was not a good sign as far as the offensive line goes. The guy got pushed back into Cousins so often that they are now intimate.

Then there was the draft debacle. KAM traded down, got robbed, and had it done to him by a division rival. Then he drafted the weakest link on a great college defense that had its better players already drafted, and the GM whiffed on most of the others.

Kwesi reached for Ingram, and KOC started him no matter how awful he played or how much he looked like a "Course Landaise" French cow dodger.

To shore up the offensive line this offseason, KAM, KOC, and Co. went with the status quo and spent a lot of cash on the tight ends instead. No high draft picks, and no top tier free agents ... partially because of the bad deals he signed with Cousins, Thielen, the backup tight end, and the fullback, and because his first round debacle from the year before was missing a third round pick.

The Vikings are flabbergast with failures, flops, and foolery. Dude, if you don't know football, at least read John Madden's books and ask people in the know why Spielman failed here. Here is a clue: after the quarterback, an offensive is built from the line outward.

Last Edit: Sept 27, 2023 0:37:46 GMT -6 by Minniman

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slapnut19
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -6 via mobile andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by slapnut19 on Sept 27, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -6

Take a look back at the 2017 team. That was group was built from players drafted and acquired from 2012-2016 with some oline reinforcements in the spring of 2017. That's usually how long it takes to build a complete team. I really don't understand why Kwesi was supposed to have accomplished that in two offseasons. Let the guy have a chance to build something before throwing him away. Every GM has some bad draft picks and players that don't work out for whatever reason. In the years I mentioned above we had some high draft picks like Kalil, Floyd, Patterson and Treadwell who didn't live up to expectations and it didn't derail our overall team development and eventual success. Kam definitely needs some more draft hits to balance things out but I'm not throwing him away after one bad draft

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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 7:03:16 GMT -6 Ted Glover likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 27, 2023 7:03:16 GMT -6

Ted Glover, excellent post... It's definitely thought provoking and well worth the read... I've said my pieces in various other threads, but this is a good place to consolidate that.

KAM so far has been doing a pretty good job of money management. I do agree that Rick's mess is a big problem here. KAM focuses on value, and other than really Davenport so far, he's done a pretty good job of doing that. By next season, most of our cap issues with be gone, which hopefully also means the end (for now) of void years and that type of thing. I think he over does it a bit on the value, and certainly has shown some weaknesses (Detroit trade), but his primary goal has been to clean up the money mess. I think draft concerns though are valid, and I suspect he's a bit too over reliant on certain analytics pieces. He's consistently, for instance, found value with injured players, counting on a much improved medical staff to keep us on the right side of that equation. I'm not sure that works as well with draftees who have health issues already and aren't physically mature enough to handle the beating of the NFL and the types of players they face, and then there are guys like Davenport, that just cannot stay healthy. The next question to me is whether or not KAM has the guts to be decisive given this team's start. The Wilfs might be fine with a 1st round playoff loss, but starting 0-3 when they should realistically be 2-1 and fighting for an 8-9 finish and possible playoff spot is foolish given the QB situation we're in presently.

KOC is a different problem. He doesn't appear to have grown much as a play caller or as an HC from year one to year two. For all the talk about accountability, thus far, he hasn't been accountable. His teams have been unprepared and there seems to be way too much indecision from him. There's no letting Phillips call plays so he can focus more on the HC aspects of his job during game day. He might be a mastermind at designing plays, but he's not good at managing things to his team's strengths and mitigating their weaknesses, and I don't have patience for that kind of thing. At the same time, he clearly did something right last year.

I do agree that time will tell with both of these. There are red flags with both, the question is whether or not they will adjust and learn from mistakes. I saw a bit more of that from KAM this draft, for instance, than I have from KOC so far this season. I do agree that this isn't necessarily a blow it up with them kind of thing just yet, but my patience is certainly going to wear thin. At least the 23 draft class is looking like it could turn out to be an above average class, and he's definitely getting better with trades, but until there are some results and clear adjustments where things aren't working, I think people are right to be skeptical.

andhesloose28
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 7:03:40 GMT -6 ukvikings likes this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Sept 27, 2023 7:03:40 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2023 21:58:24 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

The 2022 draft is like a pee-stained wet blanket killing the optimism for this new regime. Sucks..

That draft sucks its clear, but go look at many Rick put together as well, Im not going to call for anyone head over one draft let alone their first one. Nothing changes with this team until a new QB is selected in the first maybe second round and deemed the franchise. That is when a new era of Vikings football begins. As much as getting rid of Thielen, Kendricks etc this still feels like the same Vikings teams years. No Kirk isnt the main problem of this team by any means, both can be true even though people dont make it seem that is possible.

Ppl are angry at 0-3, but is this team really worse than last year? I still think its an overall better team. The product looks better they just cant hang onto the football. Im not panicking, ill let this thing play out. People are acting as if they went all in after a fraudulent 13 win season, I give them credit for still stripping it down and realizing they weren't that good last year. This is the least stressfull year for me as in the beginning I said this team will either compete, or they are going in a new direction at QB finally. Its a win win.

AND TED..great post to put things in perspective. Who knows if Kwesi or Kevin will be the ones, but im letting it play out. I like the direction they are moving in at least. Takes serious balls and self awareness to do what they did last offseason after a 13 win season. They are cleaning up the mess right now. Need to hit some draft picks though.

Last Edit: Sept 27, 2023 7:07:59 GMT -6 by andhesloose28

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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 7:23:33 GMT -6 via mobile andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on Sept 27, 2023 7:23:33 GMT -6

Of course not, we have been kicking the fan down the road since 2020. The old gm apparently tried to change things up and start going younger but was denied by ownership. Ownership then put in their super competitive mandate so we could just keep pushing out mediocre teams as long as possible as opposed to rebuilding. The wilfs are the big issue here but in their defense mediocrity seems to work with a large chunk of fans so I guess they are just catering to that and have no real reasons to change.

That doesn’t entirely excuse Kam but it was always going to be impossible to completely turn the roster over while staying competitive unless we had perfect drafts like 4 years straight. We just started the process of cutting aging vets and 3 weeks in fans are already calling for a new regime lol. I actually think Addison, hockenson, Blackmon, pace looks like a good use of assets for the 2nd draft to make up for the first draft a bit. I think even though it’s 4 years late moving on from vets was the right call. We just should have gone all in on the rebuild instead of wasting more cap and assets to try and be mediocre.

Koc is in a tough spot too given the talent and expectations. We see charts showing how open our wrs have been all year. If you watch the 22 view it becomes apparent as well. We are one of the best teams in the league at designing plays to get wrs open (granted with elite talent). Yet he gets blamed because our qb is back to his old ways and can’t make easy decisions play after play and we turn it over at an extreme rate right now. Again there are flaws here but he doesn’t have much of a chance with the expectations compared to how the players on the field are playing.

So at the end of the day it’s too early to tell on anyone. We don’t have a direction and the coaches are handicapped by limited talent due to the half and half approach. Cousins will play better moving forward and we likely fumble less leading us right back to the happy spot of 8ish wins so fans can get excited about running it back next year with only a couple improvements needed to be a playoff team. Then we can debate all off-season if we should make it 7 plus years for a qb that only should have lasted 2 at his price tags or if maybe it is time to actually fully invest in the future.

Josey Wales Moderator Posts: 11,575 Likes: 4,737	This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 9:25:30 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown and HunterMorrow like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Josey Wales on Sept 27, 2023 9:25:30 GMT -6 Sept 26, 2023 20:40:35 GMT -6 Funkytown said: "Do you wanna get a look at Cine, Booth, Asamoah, etc.?" KO: "Not particularly. I see them every day." 😂
	Last Edit: Sept 27, 2023 9:27:22 GMT -6 by Josey Wales

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,552 Likes: 31,479 Fan Since: 1998	This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 11:16:48 GMT -6 via mobile Danchat and Josey Wales like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Sept 27, 2023 11:16:48 GMT -6

Will
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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 11:29:33 GMT -6 HunterMorrow likes this

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Post by Will on Sept 27, 2023 11:29:33 GMT -6

The NFL is extremely competitive. Winning consistently is hard. In the NFC, what teams have been winners since 2017?
Philly, LA, San Fran, Green Bay, and Tampa Bay. The Vikings and Saints were not quite good enough to make the top teams list since 2017. Each of these teams had good defenses, good offensive lines, and effective QBs when they made the Super Bowl. (GB did not make the SB but won a lot of games and was arguably a top team that failed in the playoffs)

I bring this up because the Vikings have had a declining Defense since 2017. They have built a good offense around Cousins, and their IOL has been weak because of some poor draft picks. (Bradbury, Ingram, ...) But at least they invested in their Offensive Line during the draft. They have not invested in the Defensive Line for a decade or more. 3rd, 4th, and 5th round picks don't typically get you a top 5 defense. Being fortunate with Hunter is not a repeatable strategy. Is Sharrif Floyd in 2013 the last 1st round draft pick on the D-Line?

Every GM misses on players, but it is legitimate to question the Cine pick when the DL has not had real priority investment since 2013. The Vikings are deep at Safety without Cine. The Vikings were more competitive when they had difference makers on the D-Line. They need both Edge rushers and interior linemen. It will take a few years of drafts to get there; will KAM do it?

The Vikings also need to draft a QB, and 2024 may be the year. If the 2024 draft does not produce both a QB and a stud on D, then that draft is probably a failure. Pressure to replace KAM will grow.

I still think KO will be a very good Head Coach. He is more than just a rah-rah Coach.

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This won't be an easy fix Sept 27, 2023 12:17:27 GMT -6 Funkytown, Josey Wales, and 1 more like this

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Post by Jor-El on Sept 27, 2023 12:17:27 GMT -6

Very very worthwhile discussion topic. But:

Sept 26, 2023 16:03:13 GMT -6 Ted Glover said:

people who miss Rick and want him back (I've seen those sentiments on Twitter)

Seriously, there are people who want Spielman back?? Some memory neurons are in really rough shape around here. The article covers Spielman incompetence pretty well, so I won't go further. But I could...

Sept 26, 2023 20:30:51 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

Not the time to spend on FAs. KAM has also done a good job on not over investing huge cap dollars on FAs. Keeping the books open for future years, unlike Rick who buried future cap for years and years. So I am glad he hasnt givrn out huge long contracts in FA yet because the team isnt ready for those yet.

OK, KAM has done short deals, but is that smart, or him showing he just isn't confident in his own decisions? For example, we're all glad he didn't sign Chandon Sullivan to a 4-year contract in 2022, right? Same with Marcus Davenport, at least so far. But is that going to look so good if one of his FA signings ever works out? Let's say Dalton Risner (or maybe even Davenport) plays great for us the rest of this season. Great - expect that we just gave that player a nice audition for free agency and we have little or no advantage in retaining him. Risner could look like the solution at RG we have been waiting for - and walk next March. Short deals might seem "safe", but they're also gutless. If your GM is a good player evaluator and thinks his coaches can maximize the potential of Byron Murphy, don't you want that 25-year-old on your roster for more than 2 years? All signs point to KAM himself not even believing he's a good personnel evaluator. Of course that brings us to KAM's drafting...

Sept 26, 2023 20:40:35 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Purple Pain inquiring minds: "Do you wanna get a look at Cine, Booth, Asamoah, etc.?"

KO: "Not particularly. I see them every day.”

Hilarious, and true, and it sure seems like KO was keeping one ray of hope for his GM alive by running Ingram out there, but is that coming to an end? I think Risner will take Ingram's job soon, and then that 2022 draft will officially be: Bust, Bust, Bust, Bust, Evans, and some late-round fodder. And Evans might be nothing more than an adequate starter.

We all realize people who are new to a job need some time to learn and we sympathize. The problem is, when a new regime takes over a team, they often have an especially high draft position because the last regime failed. Sorry that Kwesi still had his learner's permit in 2022, but YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO WASTE THE 12TH PICK OVERALL, especially when kicking off a rebuild. Spielman, for all his flaws, had the 9th pick overall when Zimmer took over, and he got Anthony Barr. No, we didn't get Aaron Donald, but Barr was a good player and Zimmer acted like he was the cornerstone of his defense. Compared to Barr, Lewis Cine is used chewing gum scraped off the bottom of a seat in USBank stadium.

One thing that has - so far - relieved the anger about 2022 is that there are no Aaron Donalds, no players who the Vikings passed and became stars. But 20 players were picked between #12 and #32, and some of them are going to emerge. Maybe Jordan Davis or Kyle Hamilton or someone else, but when there's a name and face for KAM's waste of that #12 pick, the heat will rise higher.

I don't think Kwesi is going to get fired. But seeing how O'Connell had to urge him to draft Addison, KAM should immediately relinquish all responsibility for draft and personnel decisions. The key is finding QBOTF as everyone agrees, but I don't think KAM is qualified to have anything to do with that decision.

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This won't be an easy fix

Post by vikergirl on Sept 26, 2023 21:12:19 GMT -6

Post by ukvikings on Sept 26, 2023 21:23:06 GMT -6

Post by PurpleKoolaid on Sept 26, 2023 21:40:22 GMT -6

Post by Ted Glover on Sept 26, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -6

Post by Funkytown on Sept 26, 2023 21:58:24 GMT -6

Post by comet52 on Sept 26, 2023 23:04:37 GMT -6

Post by Minniman on Sept 27, 2023 0:36:52 GMT -6

Post by slapnut19 on Sept 27, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -6

Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 27, 2023 7:03:16 GMT -6

Post by andhesloose28 on Sept 27, 2023 7:03:40 GMT -6

Post by mngopher35 on Sept 27, 2023 7:23:33 GMT -6

Post by Josey Wales on Sept 27, 2023 9:25:30 GMT -6

Post by Funkytown on Sept 27, 2023 11:16:48 GMT -6

Post by Will on Sept 27, 2023 11:29:33 GMT -6

Post by Jor-El on Sept 27, 2023 12:17:27 GMT -6

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