Dallas Turner

whoskmoon
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Dallas Turner Nov 6, 2024 19:34:43 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Nov 6, 2024 19:34:43 GMT -6

Nov 6, 2024 16:40:15 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Nov 6, 2024 12:30:08 GMT -6 stout93 said:

Didn't we all say that Barr being used as a hybrid and not straight pass rusher was the wrong decision???

And now we're saying we're OK with Turner being turned into that same role?

That's apples and oranges, Barr was an off-ball LB for Zimmer whereas fans wanted him to be a full-time edge rusher. For Turner, either way he is still an edge rusher first but the question is how much is he dropping back into coverage and playing like a hybrid LB at times.

For reference, Van Ginkel is dropping back in coverage about 37% of the time while Greenard is dropping back 11%. That's about the discrepancy we're talking about.

AVG is just a special type of player and I see no evidence Flores needs an edge rushers dropping into coverage at the rate AVG does. Whenever AVG has not been on his team, his edges drop back into coverage higher than a typical 3-4, but closer to that 11% rate Greenard does. Wonnum played that role for most of last year for instance, and dropped back at around a 11% rate. In 2018 in NE the most coverage snaps by an edge was 27. In 2019 in Miami, prior to Van Ginkle taking a larger role in the defense, Vince Biegel dropped back 11%. Then in 2020, AVG took over and that number jumped up to 15% for him, and in 2021 it jumped to 21%. Then Flores was fired and AVG was in coverage on 27% of his snaps in 2022 and 20% in 2023 with a different DC.

Drank
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Dallas Turner Nov 6, 2024 19:35:18 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Drank on Nov 6, 2024 19:35:18 GMT -6

Nov 6, 2024 19:19:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Nov 6, 2024 11:30:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

In Flores' system. This is where you chronically make the same mistake with your data over and over again. You generically apply historical data to the current situation while ignoring context.

Brian was a scout. A DC for a dynasty. Is currently the highest rated DC in the League. He wanted Turner. He's using Turner like he uses AVG: a hybrid OLB/ILB. A role your data points factually don't account for because you are using players like Hunter who almost never drop into coverage.

Most of us want Dallas used more and as a traditional Edge. Brian wants him to learn and play a dual role in one of the more complicated schemes seen in recent memory. In that context, being just 21 years old absolutely matters.

Except Flores was perfectly fine using him primarily as a pass rusher week 1, and when he was pretty bad in that game, with Jones playing well, he was relegated to the bench and special teams.

This has nothing to do with Flores' scheme, nothing to do with him wanting Turner to drop into coverage more, this has everything to do with Flores thinking Jones is better at rushing the passer than Turner. With Cashman back, Jones continuing to suck, and Turner looking good in limited pass rush snaps, he will rush the passer more in the coming game. All of this at the age of 21.

They say age ain’t nothing but a number. Also this is a young man’s game. If some can play at 21 means we can’t use that excuse. There are tons of examples too.

I was once told to be patient with guys like Cine and Booth too and we know how that ended.

Turner is already above them all it took was one play. Turner fine as long as it picks up like it did this past week and week 1. At least last week he did play.

I’m not counting sacks because historically some guys don’t get like 10 early. 4 or 5 will due with flashes. What we want is reps. Hopefully that stays where we just saw it.

This under Jones though nope… Would Bosa, Parsons, Hutch etc etc sit behind Jones all year as rookies. We all should know the answer to that. So I want a pass of Jones this year. This past week was in the right direction so Skol to that.

Last Edit: Nov 6, 2024 19:36:54 GMT -6 by Drank

slapnut19
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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 4:22:15 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by slapnut19 on Nov 7, 2024 4:22:15 GMT -6

Nov 6, 2024 19:35:18 GMT -6 Drank said:

Nov 6, 2024 19:19:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Except Flores was perfectly fine using him primarily as a pass rusher week 1, and when he was pretty bad in that game, with Jones playing well, he was relegated to the bench and special teams.

This has nothing to do with Flores' scheme, nothing to do with him wanting Turner to drop into coverage more, this has everything to do with Flores thinking Jones is better at rushing the passer than Turner. With Cashman back, Jones continuing to suck, and Turner looking good in limited pass rush snaps, he will rush the passer more in the coming game. All of this at the age of 21.

They say age ain’t nothing but a number. Also this is a young man’s game. If some can play at 21 means we can’t use that excuse. There are tons of examples too.

I was once told to be patient with guys like Cine and Booth too and we know how that ended.

Turner is already above them all it took was one play. Turner fine as long as it picks up like it did this past week and week 1. At least last week he did play.

I’m not counting sacks because historically some guys don’t get like 10 early. 4 or 5 will due with flashes. What we want is reps. Hopefully that stays where we just saw it.

This under Jones though nope… Would Bosa, Parsons, Hutch etc etc sit behind Jones all year as rookies. We all should know the answer to that. So I want a pass of Jones this year. This past week was in the right direction so Skol to that.

were any of those players drafted to play olb in a Flores system? It's obvious he wasn't drafted to JUST rush the passer. This isn't some Turner vs Jones situation. It's a Flores is developing Turner situation so why don't we let that happen instead of panicking every other day. He had a good game last week and suddenly we are throwing Cines name out?

slapnut19 Hall of Fame Nominee Posts: 9,415 Likes: 3,016	Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 4:34:59 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by slapnut19 on Nov 7, 2024 4:34:59 GMT -6 Here's Flores talking about Turner after the draft. www.nfl.com/news/vikings-dc-brian-flores-compares-first-rounder-dallas-turner-to-donta-hightower

diehardtwinsfan
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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 10:07:04 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 7, 2024 10:07:04 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 4:22:15 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Nov 6, 2024 19:35:18 GMT -6 Drank said:

They say age ain’t nothing but a number. Also this is a young man’s game. If some can play at 21 means we can’t use that excuse. There are tons of examples too.

I was once told to be patient with guys like Cine and Booth too and we know how that ended.

Turner is already above them all it took was one play. Turner fine as long as it picks up like it did this past week and week 1. At least last week he did play.

I’m not counting sacks because historically some guys don’t get like 10 early. 4 or 5 will due with flashes. What we want is reps. Hopefully that stays where we just saw it.

This under Jones though nope… Would Bosa, Parsons, Hutch etc etc sit behind Jones all year as rookies. We all should know the answer to that. So I want a pass of Jones this year. This past week was in the right direction so Skol to that.

were any of those players drafted to play olb in a Flores system? It's obvious he wasn't drafted to JUST rush the passer. This isn't some Turner vs Jones situation. It's a Flores is developing Turner situation so why don't we let that happen instead of panicking every other day. He had a good game last week and suddenly we are throwing Cines name out?

I can see this both ways. He was playing well before his injury, so I really hope that the break was more due to Flores giving Jones II a longer leash and him recovering a bit. But I do think that given his talent, I'd expect him to play a bit, even though we're very deep in his position. I'd say even more so given how poorly our defense was playing with him not on the field against Detroit, GB, etc.

But yeah, I think it's completely unfair to toss Cine's name out there. Cine was unfortunately a bust from day 1 and Turner has already out performed Cine in Cine's career. I tend to agree with you that he'll be fine, but I do find his usage perplexing.

whoskmoon
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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 12:20:00 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by whoskmoon on Nov 7, 2024 12:20:00 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 4:22:15 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Nov 6, 2024 19:35:18 GMT -6 Drank said:

They say age ain’t nothing but a number. Also this is a young man’s game. If some can play at 21 means we can’t use that excuse. There are tons of examples too.

I was once told to be patient with guys like Cine and Booth too and we know how that ended.

Turner is already above them all it took was one play. Turner fine as long as it picks up like it did this past week and week 1. At least last week he did play.

I’m not counting sacks because historically some guys don’t get like 10 early. 4 or 5 will due with flashes. What we want is reps. Hopefully that stays where we just saw it.

This under Jones though nope… Would Bosa, Parsons, Hutch etc etc sit behind Jones all year as rookies. We all should know the answer to that. So I want a pass of Jones this year. This past week was in the right direction so Skol to that.

were any of those players drafted to play olb in a Flores system? It's obvious he wasn't drafted to JUST rush the passer. This isn't some Turner vs Jones situation. It's a Flores is developing Turner situation so why don't we let that happen instead of panicking every other day. He had a good game last week and suddenly we are throwing Cines name out?

This is a prime example of the simplest answer being right one.

Either Turner struggled in his first game while Jones played well, getting Turner essentially relegated to just special teams until injuries and poor play from Jones got him more playtime. Or, Flores has the most unique development plan in the league where he wants to start off with a player playing a bunch of snaps week 1, sit him for another 6 games and then start playing him again week 8.

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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 13:32:53 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by NoresemanSam on Nov 7, 2024 13:32:53 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 12:20:00 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Either Turner struggled in his first game while Jones played well, getting Turner essentially relegated to just special teams until injuries and poor play from Jones got him more playtime. Or, Flores has the most unique development plan in the league where he wants to start off with a player playing a bunch of snaps week 1, sit him for another 6 games and then start playing him again week 8.

My (uneducated) guess is that Turner demonstrated that he didn't fully understand what he was supposed to do out there and he's been in remedial training since. We certainly can't question his physical abilities and basic skill set.

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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 14:44:30 GMT -6 via mobile comet52 likes this

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Post by FSUVike on Nov 7, 2024 14:44:30 GMT -6

Nov 6, 2024 19:19:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Nov 6, 2024 11:30:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

In Flores' system. This is where you chronically make the same mistake with your data over and over again. You generically apply historical data to the current situation while ignoring context.

Brian was a scout. A DC for a dynasty. Is currently the highest rated DC in the League. He wanted Turner. He's using Turner like he uses AVG: a hybrid OLB/ILB. A role your data points factually don't account for because you are using players like Hunter who almost never drop into coverage.

Most of us want Dallas used more and as a traditional Edge. Brian wants him to learn and play a dual role in one of the more complicated schemes seen in recent memory. In that context, being just 21 years old absolutely matters.

Except Flores was perfectly fine using him primarily as a pass rusher week 1, and when he was pretty bad in that game, with Jones playing well, he was relegated to the bench and special teams.

This has nothing to do with Flores' scheme, nothing to do with him wanting Turner to drop into coverage more, this has everything to do with Flores thinking Jones is better at rushing the passer than Turner. With Cashman back, Jones continuing to suck, and Turner looking good in limited pass rush snaps, he will rush the passer more in the coming game. All of this at the age of 21.

Tunnel Vision still working fine. How could Turner possibly be ready for a dual role in Week 1? Although he did drop into coverage some at Alabama he didn't do it in the volume Flores requires.

Dallas got early reps to get his feet wet. Jones simply outplayed him early on for the Edge spot opposite of Greenard when AVG drops into coverage. As Jones started to fade Turner has gotten ramped up.

And Dallas also looked better against the run last game, which is the biggest concern with him coming out of college weighing less than 250. So another element could certainly be that he needed to add some strength and show better against the run in practice before Brian was ready to get him more involved.

Your anti-KAM bias is sure in full effect here.

Last Edit: Nov 7, 2024 14:46:13 GMT -6 by FSUVike

diehardtwinsfan Moderator Posts: 11,892 Likes: 7,450	Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 15:27:08 GMT -6 slapnut19 likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 7, 2024 15:27:08 GMT -6 are we forgetting that Turner wasn't bad at all when he was on the field prior to his injury?

spence Franchise Player Posts: 3,425 Likes: 986	Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 15:42:19 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by spence on Nov 7, 2024 15:42:19 GMT -6 Turner is still going to be one of the best defensive players in this league
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ratsalad
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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 16:23:44 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by ratsalad on Nov 7, 2024 16:23:44 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 14:44:30 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 6, 2024 19:19:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Except Flores was perfectly fine using him primarily as a pass rusher week 1, and when he was pretty bad in that game, with Jones playing well, he was relegated to the bench and special teams.

This has nothing to do with Flores' scheme, nothing to do with him wanting Turner to drop into coverage more, this has everything to do with Flores thinking Jones is better at rushing the passer than Turner. With Cashman back, Jones continuing to suck, and Turner looking good in limited pass rush snaps, he will rush the passer more in the coming game. All of this at the age of 21.

Tunnel Vision still working fine. How could Turner possibly be ready for a dual role in Week 1? Although he did drop into coverage some at Alabama he didn't do it in the volume Flores requires.

Dallas got early reps to get his feet wet. Jones simply outplayed him early on for the Edge spot opposite of Greenard when AVG drops into coverage. As Jones started to fade Turner has gotten ramped up.

And Dallas also looked better against the run last game, which is the biggest concern with him coming out of college weighing less than 250. So another element could certainly be that he needed to add some strength and show better against the run in practice before Brian was ready to get him more involved.

Your anti-KAM bias is sure in full effect here.

Who would be pro KAM at this point lol

vikingpwr
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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 17:44:56 GMT -6 slapnut19 likes this

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Post by vikingpwr on Nov 7, 2024 17:44:56 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 16:23:44 GMT -6 ratsalad said:

Nov 7, 2024 14:44:30 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Tunnel Vision still working fine. How could Turner possibly be ready for a dual role in Week 1? Although he did drop into coverage some at Alabama he didn't do it in the volume Flores requires.

Dallas got early reps to get his feet wet. Jones simply outplayed him early on for the Edge spot opposite of Greenard when AVG drops into coverage. As Jones started to fade Turner has gotten ramped up.

And Dallas also looked better against the run last game, which is the biggest concern with him coming out of college weighing less than 250. So another element could certainly be that he needed to add some strength and show better against the run in practice before Brian was ready to get him more involved.

Your anti-KAM bias is sure in full effect here.

Who would be pro KAM at this point lol

Me.

whoskmoon
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Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 20:21:13 GMT -6 via mobile Danchat likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Nov 7, 2024 20:21:13 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 15:27:08 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

are we forgetting that Turner wasn't bad at all when he was on the field prior to his injury?

According to PFF he was the worst defender on the field for MN week 1.

I know PFF isn't perfect, but Flores must have agreed somewhat with them since Turner's snapcount was cut in half the following week.

Last Edit: Nov 7, 2024 20:21:28 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

legendsofthenorth Ring of Honor Enter your message here... Posts: 5,717 Likes: 3,257	Dallas Turner Nov 7, 2024 21:35:31 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by legendsofthenorth on Nov 7, 2024 21:35:31 GMT -6 I thought Turner had a really good game. Not a fan of dropping him into coverage so much

whoskmoon
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Dallas Turner Nov 8, 2024 8:23:43 GMT -6 via mobile ratsalad likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Nov 8, 2024 8:23:43 GMT -6

Nov 7, 2024 14:44:30 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 6, 2024 19:19:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Except Flores was perfectly fine using him primarily as a pass rusher week 1, and when he was pretty bad in that game, with Jones playing well, he was relegated to the bench and special teams.

This has nothing to do with Flores' scheme, nothing to do with him wanting Turner to drop into coverage more, this has everything to do with Flores thinking Jones is better at rushing the passer than Turner. With Cashman back, Jones continuing to suck, and Turner looking good in limited pass rush snaps, he will rush the passer more in the coming game. All of this at the age of 21.

Tunnel Vision still working fine. How could Turner possibly be ready for a dual role in Week 1? Although he did drop into coverage some at Alabama he didn't do it in the volume Flores requires.

Dallas got early reps to get his feet wet. Jones simply outplayed him early on for the Edge spot opposite of Greenard when AVG drops into coverage. As Jones started to fade Turner has gotten ramped up.

And Dallas also looked better against the run last game, which is the biggest concern with him coming out of college weighing less than 250. So another element could certainly be that he needed to add some strength and show better against the run in practice before Brian was ready to get him more involved.

Your anti-KAM bias is sure in full effect here.

It isn't tunnel vision it is avoiding making up crazy scenarios to justify an opinion and looking at things the way they are.

Turner had been playing so little because Flores felt, possibly still feels Jones is the better pass rusher. Which at this point is more on Flores than Turner.