I wanna bite some kneecaps.

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 10:31:47 GMT -6

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 10:31:47 GMT -6

Nov 30, 2023 14:41:45 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Nov 29, 2023 20:23:52 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

But in this case, I think there is also some deep-seated opposition to EVER seeing Hall start. Its masquerading as not wanting him to start now, but behind it all they really don't think he should ever start because they "know" he can't possibly ever be any good. Because he's an injury prone 5th rounder who played in a spread offense.

Interesting perspective, but what would be behind not wanting Hall to ever play? The only thing I can think is that people who are scouting the 2024 draft, and already dreaming of us getting their favorite QB prospect, don't want that idea muddied by Hall looking like he might be a good player.

I don't think its a coincidence that the most vocal opponents of playing Hall are also college football and amateur draft hounds.

I'm not personally eager to see Hall, but I get your point. If he's never going to be more than a Steve Dils backup, it doesn't matter if he gets ruined by playing early. Besides, what is the evidence that playing too early "ruins" a QB? Most of the young QBs who wash out might have done so even if they were carefully nursed along for a few seasons. Conversely, what proves that those developed slowly were eventually better players? Did Jordan Love have the polish and poise of a veteran when he finally got to start this year?

It would be nice if FSUVike would answer these questions, but I think we are just expected to take his word for it. I want examples, numbers,etc. Surely we can't assume KOC is doing everything right on this one topic when he is doing almost everything else wrong!?

I don't think there are any good analogies, examples, comparisons or numerical data. I think its a highly subjective decision with a lot of room for error. "Ok Joe looks ready" (but he isn't) or "Joe's not ready but we have to use him anyway" (and he proves them wrong). We can all probably think of examples of both, but I'm still willing to see the highly objective formula that takes the subjective guessing out of it.

Last Edit: Dec 2, 2023 10:33:48 GMT -6 by Oracle Bone Diviner

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 10:35:06 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 10:35:06 GMT -6

Dec 1, 2023 13:57:55 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Dec 1, 2023 12:31:59 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

he literally got concussed in his second drive vs Atlanta due to a reckless run. It's not kid gloves. It's called player development. If he has earned the coaches trust and they think he should start vs Vegas then cool, sign me up. Beyond that there's no logical reason just to throw him out there because some petulant fans are stomping their feet demanding to see him now

Player development is far too advanced of a concept for a number of folks on this forum.

You need to stop insulting the intelligence of people who disagree with you.

There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild

itinerant, noun; a person who works and wanders.

slapnut19
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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 12:20:45 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 12:20:45 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 10:03:49 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

Dec 1, 2023 11:58:33 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

me too. Next training camp after he's had a chance to fully develop. Not in the middle of the playoff race

How long does it take to fully develop a Jaren Hall, and based on what? Are you sure it's one season, and not 12 games or 15 games 23 games or 48 games? What exactly are you basing these estimates of yours on? They sure sound like you are just making them up.

do most projects magically become ready before their first season is done?

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 12:39:40 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 12:39:40 GMT -6

Nov 30, 2023 15:26:54 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 30, 2023 14:51:35 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

I think you might be onto something.

Ridiculous. Name me a single Analyst or Scout that was like 'how did a kid as talented as Hall fall all the way to the 5th Round'.

IF he has any chance to develop into a QB2 he needs time to learn how to read Defenses from under Center. 2 years of being Shotgun-only and in 6 months of learning a far more sophisticated system from a different vantage point and its time for him to sink or swim already?

That's how you ruin guys, not develop them. O'Connell is doing this the right way. Mullens gives them the best shot to make the Playoffs.

Now, if and when they are completely eliminated, and IF Kevin feels like Jalen is fully ready for it, that is when you get him some snaps or even a full game.

Well that would be generous to allow him a few snaps and maybe even a full, meaningless game. Then next year year people can say "yeah he looked good but he only played one meaningless game."

Hell, he's already started a meaningful game and his play itself looked fine. No reason to demote him to meaningless games then unless that proves to have been an illusion.

Since one of the knocks on Hall is being injury prone, and not without reason, what happens if we spend another year or two developing him into "another Gardner Minshew" only to find out he can't stay healthy for a full game, or 5? How smart does "hold him back to develop him" look then? One of the things we need to find out is whether he can stand up to the physical demands of the NFL. It seems unlikely to me that they can develop that aspect of him very much. If he gets concussed too easily, we need to send him off to find another job for his own good.

There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild

itinerant, noun; a person who works and wanders.

Oracle Bone Diviner
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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 12:40:36 GMT -6

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 12:40:36 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 12:20:45 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Dec 2, 2023 10:03:49 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

do most projects magically become ready before their first season is done?

I didn't think you would answer the question.

There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild

itinerant, noun; a person who works and wanders.

slapnut19
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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 12:54:29 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 12:54:29 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 12:40:36 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

Dec 2, 2023 12:20:45 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

do most projects magically become ready before their first season is done?

I didn't think you would answer the question.

why dont you explain how he's ready? Was it clearly being #3 out of camp? How about being #3 last week? Imo a project qb doesn't magically get developed halfway through a season where some fans get impatient and want him to play. He wasn't drafted with the expectation to play this year. If he was expected to be ready to play I doubt we would have even traded for Dobbs or have spent checking into acquiring other qbs which we did

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 13:32:55 GMT -6 comet52 and vikingpwr like this

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 13:32:55 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 12:54:29 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Dec 2, 2023 12:40:36 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

I didn't think you would answer the question.

I'm not the one claiming he needed to "get ready" so I'm not going to lay down the reasons why I think he has gotten ready. I don't even care if he is ready, if indeed he needed to be readied.

I simply want to see if he is ready, and more importantly, whether he is able. That could mean playing him for several games, one game, one half, it all depends on what happens. I might say after one game that he looks very able, but not quite ready.

Or I might think he is not able. I simply lack the ability to predict what will happen.

There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild

itinerant, noun; a person who works and wanders.

slapnut19 Hall of Fame Nominee Posts: 9,415 Likes: 3,016 Member is Online	I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6 I get the impression some of you would rather lose with Hall instead of win with Mullens

vikingpwr
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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 15:16:00 GMT -6 comet52 likes this

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Post by vikingpwr on Dec 2, 2023 15:16:00 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

I get the impression some of you would rather lose with Hall instead of win with Mullens

I'd rather play our rookie QB and see what he brings to the table than the two career backups who have shown their ceiling.

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 2, 2023 16:55:39 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 16:55:39 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 15:16:00 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

I get the impression some of you would rather lose with Hall instead of win with Mullens

I'd rather play our rookie QB and see what he brings to the table than the two career backups who have shown their ceiling.

did Keenum show his ceiling before 2017? because Mullens prior to this year was basically Keenum prior to then

For the record I don't think Mullens is leading us on a deep playoff run

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 3, 2023 11:34:42 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Dec 3, 2023 11:34:42 GMT -6

Dec 1, 2023 0:14:41 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Nov 30, 2023 21:42:30 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Maybe

I don't mean in a "Hall could be the future" sorta way, I mean in a "we find out" sorta way. Either answer helps us. Dobbs nor Mullens are the future. Hall is the only potential QBotF on the roster so it would be nice to answer some questions before the offseason. I guess we should probably draft a QB no matter what because there's nothing wrong with a little competition, unless your starter is Kirk Cousins and you need to protect his delicate sensibilities.

Since good quarterbacks often take a year or two to show they are good quarterbacks, a few games with Hall isn't going to show a complete picture, but the other quarterbacks on the Vikings roster, and not on IR, have their player clouds full of pictures of their career, and all of them have blemishes, bad contrast, and a lack of focus.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 3, 2023 11:47:22 GMT -6 comet52 likes this

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Post by Minniman on Dec 3, 2023 11:47:22 GMT -6

Dec 1, 2023 11:33:26 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Dec 1, 2023 11:23:18 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

We have two backups and a rookie. Play the rookie now and see what ya got.

playoffs matter. Not just Jaren Hall's evaluation

Playoffs matter, but the Vikings were a borderline playoff team before Cousins went down, and neither Mullens nor Dobbs look to have much WAR.

Nick Mullens has awful field vision and is a picks machine. He always has been, and he likely always will be. His 27/23 TD/INT ratio is bad. An NFL career 3.5 INT% is asking to lose the ball on turnovers.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 3, 2023 12:07:57 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner and Jor-El like this

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Post by Minniman on Dec 3, 2023 12:07:57 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

I get the impression some of you would rather lose with Hall instead of win with Mullens

That statement makes too many assumptions to be logical. To start, one cannot assume Mullens has a better chance of winning than Hall.

Jaren Hall was a better college QB than Mullens, and Mullens has shown nothing but an inability to avoid giving up the football in the NFL.

Nick Mullens' college TD/INT ratio: 87/46 for 1.89, Completion percentage: 60.0, YPA 7.8, AYPA 7.5

Mullens was better his junior and senior seasons. His TD ratio was 62/23 for 2.70. Mullens' completion percentage was 63.4%, and his YPA was 8.6 in those years.

Jaren Hall's college TD/INT ratio: 52/11 for 4.73, Completion percentage: 65.2, YPA: 8.6, AYPA 9.4

While one can state that Hall is unproven in the NFL, one can also state that Mullens has not proven to be a quality starter either.

Last Edit: Dec 3, 2023 12:13:16 GMT -6 by Minniman

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 3, 2023 12:22:17 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Dec 3, 2023 12:22:17 GMT -6

Nov 29, 2023 20:06:19 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

I was getting hopeful after the 1st 2 Dobbs games. You could see the imperfections but his ability to break out of a collapsing pocket and make something out of nothing seem to cover for those flaws. Now I've kinda seen enough. It was fun to believe that his unpredictability and speed along with the confusion Flores was creating on defense could have made us like secret weapon dangerous. Hoping it might have even been enough to recreate something like Case and the 2017 Vikes. Seemed possible for a short while. If Kevin's not going to design plays to use Dobbs legs we might as well just go with Mullens. Or just let Hall play for some interest. I still believe though that Kevin does owe it to the rest the team to play the guy he believes gives them the best chance to win. At 6-6 and still in the playoff race I think it sends the wrong message to the other guys to say...we need to start thinking about next year.

I tend to agree, but the question, to me at least, is what changed? Was it Dobbs or KOC? He stopped running, and he's had opportunities to do so. I know it's a passing league, but I have to think to some extent he's being coached not to do it and it's showing. In my opinion, KOC is forcing him into his system. So we have yet another round peg being fit into a square hole. That's not good. Our running game is already an example of that.

Nov 30, 2023 6:53:51 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

I agree. We have actually seen Hall play several times since August and he looked exactly how I thought he would. If they think he's the best option after the break that's cool but I don't believe there should be some mandate to play him. I get the tanking crowd doesn't care about the playoffs but the team does and I want to play the best option to get us there. That best option might be a combination of all 3 before the season is over. I just can't buy in to the idea that we have to get an answer about Hall right now when the plan was never to play him year one.

This would throw off opposing teams... I'm not sure I'd count pre-season, as I'd expect him to have developed a bit since then. He should have a grasp of the offense, and yes, I'd like to see him. He had all of 2 drives before getting concussed. He needs to learn to slide obviously. In the case of that drive, diving forward might have gotten him the TD and saved the concussion, but he's likely stopped short anyway. He's got to be smarter when he runs, that's for sure or he's going to be spending way too much time on the sideline. But on that second drive, he looked good. He was pinned pretty deep on that first drive, so the play book was somewhat limited. I'd cut him some slack on the 3 and out.

Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

I get the impression some of you would rather lose with Hall instead of win with Mullens

What exactly is on Mullens's resume that says we have a great chance of winning with him? That's my problem with this discussion. I can understand not ruining a kid of Hall is truly not ready. That makes no sense and only the coaching staff is capable of making that assessment. My bigger concern at the moment is square peg round hole philosophy our head coach seems to have with his QBs.

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I wanna bite some kneecaps. Dec 4, 2023 12:50:16 GMT -6 via mobile Jor-El likes this

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Post by FSUVike on Dec 4, 2023 12:50:16 GMT -6

Hall starting over Mullens is literally the equivalent of Roy starting over Phillips. Or Ward starting over Harrison Smith.

Rounds 4-7 are for drafting reliable Special Teams players and depth pieces that you hope to develop, be it into serviceable fill-ins for injury or potential future Starters if you are lucky.

Depth pieces you hope to develop. Not Start as a Rookie at the most important position on your Team while you are trying to reward your Players for digging themselves out of that 1-4 start to the season.

It's clear O'Connell values one thing above all else: a QB that will stand tall in the pocket and throw the ball to the primary read if that is what the Defense is giving on that play. He obviously doesn't value scrambling to buy time or outright QB run plays since he inarguably tried to turn Dobbs into a Pocket Passer the last two weeks.

Mullens will throw it to the primary read. Often when that person is covered, resulting in picks. But O'Connell values that trait because he believes he can scheme guys open against any Defense. And often the best play is to just throw the ball to JJ and let him outduel the coverage and make the contested catch. And Mullens will rarely scramble.

IF Hall starts at some point it won't have anything to do with the Team's record. It will solely have to do with O'Connell believing that Jaren provides the best chance to win out of the 3 options.

To put it another way, don't be shocked if Mullens or Dobbs starts the last game of the year if the Vikings are already out of Playoff contention. Kevin and Flores are competitors that clearly don't believe in tanking. They will always use the players they think gives them the best chance to win the game.

Last Edit: Dec 4, 2023 12:52:00 GMT -6 by FSUVike

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I wanna bite some kneecaps.

Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 10:31:47 GMT -6

Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 10:35:06 GMT -6

Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 12:20:45 GMT -6

Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 12:39:40 GMT -6

Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 12:40:36 GMT -6

Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 12:54:29 GMT -6

Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Dec 2, 2023 13:32:55 GMT -6

Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -6

Post by vikingpwr on Dec 2, 2023 15:16:00 GMT -6

Post by slapnut19 on Dec 2, 2023 16:55:39 GMT -6

Post by Minniman on Dec 3, 2023 11:34:42 GMT -6

Post by Minniman on Dec 3, 2023 11:47:22 GMT -6

Post by Minniman on Dec 3, 2023 12:07:57 GMT -6

Post by diehardtwinsfan on Dec 3, 2023 12:22:17 GMT -6

Post by FSUVike on Dec 4, 2023 12:50:16 GMT -6

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