Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024?

slapnut19
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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 13:39:25 GMT -6 via mobile VFL likes this

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Post by slapnut19 on Nov 15, 2023 13:39:25 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 13:21:54 GMT -6 Uncle said:

^^The key in a Cousins return in 2024+ is the price...doesn't matter if it's a 1-yr deal, or 2-4 more years, the price is going to be the sticking point...

I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion and multiple threads on the QB scenarios when the 2023 finally ends, but if Dobbs continues to play at the level he has the past 2 weeks (ie, competent starting QB w/ the ability to get yards w/ his legs), the discussion might revolve around whether or not Kirk can accept "bridge QB" type of money or if and his agent think they can get market price again. Kirk and his agent tried to get market price this past offseason but Kwesi (and I'm assuming O'Connell, too) didn't want to sign-up for 2-3 more seasons with Kirk at market price (choosing to "shelve" contract talks to after the 2023 season) and that was before the Achilles injury - I can't imagine Kwesi/O'Connell will want to sign-up for 2-3 more seasons of Kirk at market price after the Achilles.

that's the key imo. Would Kirk take a one year deal or at minimum a two year deal that we can get out of i.e. no fully guaranteed or without a no trade clause? Or if someone like Atlanta offers up 2 or 3 fully guaranteed would he just take that and move on. For all the talk about how much he loves Minnesota it still will come down to $

comet52
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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 14:02:29 GMT -6 via mobile Oracle Bone Diviner, TAFKASP, and 2 more like this

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Post by comet52 on Nov 15, 2023 14:02:29 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 13:34:53 GMT -6 Josey Wales said:

Nov 11, 2023 11:32:22 GMT -6 comet52 said:

I'll predict he's played his last down as a Viking.

It's a cost-free take, just like KOC's happy talk about Kirk and everything else. I will repeat myself: pay attention to their actions not their perpetual word salad back slapping.

Speaking of "cost-free", aren't we on the books for like $25M of Kirk's contract next year?

He is the gift that keeps giving.

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 14:15:07 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Nov 15, 2023 14:15:07 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 13:21:54 GMT -6 Uncle said:

^^The key in a Cousins return in 2024+ is the price...doesn't matter if it's a 1-yr deal, or 2-4 more years, the price is going to be the sticking point...

I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion and multiple threads on the QB scenarios when the 2023 finally ends, but if Dobbs continues to play at the level he has the past 2 weeks (ie, competent starting QB w/ the ability to get yards w/ his legs), the discussion might revolve around whether or not Kirk can accept "bridge QB" type of money or if and his agent think they can get market price again. Kirk and his agent tried to get market price this past offseason but Kwesi (and I'm assuming O'Connell, too) didn't want to sign-up for 2-3 more seasons with Kirk at market price (choosing to "shelve" contract talks to after the 2023 season) and that was before the Achilles injury - I can't imagine Kwesi/O'Connell will want to sign-up for 2-3 more seasons of Kirk at market price after the Achilles.

I'm wondering were you heard that they tried to get another deal this year. Maybe I missed that story.

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 14:18:32 GMT -6 suncoastvike and vikingpwr like this

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Post by Raptorman on Nov 15, 2023 14:18:32 GMT -6

Nov 11, 2023 14:02:41 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Nov 11, 2023 13:46:02 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

huh?

Its pretty straight forward, what word are you having a problems with?

The "Bad head coach" part. I wouldn't think a two year coach who is 19-8 and just won 5 in a row isn't that bad. But then, what do I know, I'm just some faceless name on an internet forum.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 16:14:16 GMT -6 VFL likes this

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Post by coltrane on Nov 15, 2023 16:14:16 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 14:02:29 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Nov 15, 2023 13:34:53 GMT -6 Josey Wales said:

Speaking of "cost-free", aren't we on the books for like $25M of Kirk's contract next year?

He is the gift that keeps giving.

When a QB who's essentially off the street comes in and plays at least as well (and possibly better) than your franchise one has in years, it makes perfect sense to re-sign the franchise one right? That's how I was taught.

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 16:25:10 GMT -6 Funkytown, comet52, and 1 more like this

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Post by Uncle on Nov 15, 2023 16:25:10 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 14:15:07 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

I'm wondering were you heard that they tried to get another deal this year. Maybe I missed that story.

From a late March 2023 Will Ragatz article on the Vikings.si.com website (link):

In a recent episode of the Access Vikings podcast, Star Tribune writers Ben Goessling and Andrew Krammer shared some interesting details on the Cousins extension talks. Essentially, the issue was that Cousins wanted a three-year, fully guaranteed deal, but the Vikings didn't want to commit to him through the 2025 season.

"The sense I've gotten is that they didn't want to commit as long as what he was looking for," Goessling said. "It seemed like they were almost moving in different directions. They wanted something shorter, he wanted something longer. My understanding is that 2025 was the issue."

"They are at least willing to look at the possibility of, 'Do we go to a bridge starter? Do we go to a younger quarterback?'" Goessling said. "They're willing to look at their options in conjunction with Kirk Cousins rather than just committing to him for the next three or four years."

Most notably, it sounds like Cousins was willing to take a bit less than market value in exchange for the security of three fully guaranteed years, but the Vikings still weren't interested.

"I had also heard that he wasn't asking for $40 (million), he wasn't asking for that much in terms of what Daniel Jones got, who is obviously much younger but much less accomplished," Krammer said. "Cousins' camp was kind of surprised, I guess, from what I heard, at the Vikings not jumping (at), or at least accepting, more of what they were asking for."

So Cousins' camp was willing to take a bit less than market price (ie, less than the awful Daniel Jones deal the Giants gave him) for the security of 3-4 more years, but Kwesi/O'Connell didn't want to commit to it and were "willing to look at their options in conjunction with Kirk Cousins".

After that, in June Minicamp, Kirk said that he will "shelve" contract talks until the 2024 offseason in March (link):

The Vikings and Cousins talked in the spring, but agreed not to do an extension.

"I think we'll probably talk about the contract next March. Until then, just focus on this season and the job to do right now."

After the draft in April, Vikings General Manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah didn't commit to a long-term future with Cousins.

"This is an important position, so obviously you emphasize that one when you can. We like where we are at the quarterback position. But every option is open to us," the general manager said.

Prior to the Achilles injury, things were headed in Kirk's direction as the was playing well despite the team's 1-4 start. Then they won in Chicago and won the critical home game vs SF which seemed to spur the momentum towards saving the season...

...and then Kirk suffered the injury late the following week in Green Bay and then Dobbs has come in and led the Vikings to back-to-back wins with little-to-no preparation. If Dobbs continues to play at the "competent" level he played at in Atlanta and vs New Orleans for the rest of the season, suddenly, Kirk and his agent have less leverage that the Vikings have no other options come March 2024...

The uncertainty around Kirk's recovery and how he'll look on the field once he's fully recovered, as well as the possibility of the Vikings getting "competent" starting QB play from other "bridge" QB's while possibly drafting one early in 2024 gives the Vikings more options that what they had prior to Kirk's injury...

...which leads me to the notion that if Kwesi/O'Connell wouldn't commit to Kirk this past offseason prior to the injury (even for slightly less than market price), I highly doubt they will commit to him post injury at anywhere near market price...if Kirk wants to stay in Minnesota, it's possible that he may have to lower his asking price and "commitment" (ie, he can forget about any "no trade clauses" or guaranteed contracts) for the Vikings to sign up for 2-3 more years of him with the team...

The one area that Kirk and his team might have some leverage over the Vikings during contract talks is the $28.5m dead cap hit in 2024 the Vikings are currently looking at if they don't extend him and roll that to future years. The Vikings are certainly in much better shape cap-wise heading into 2024 than they were heading into 2022/2023, but, they still need to ink the Jefferson extension and it's not like they'll have oodles and oodles of cap laying around to spend....if they want to open up a bit more, they'll need to move that $28.5m Cousins dead cap figure to the future and the only way to do that is by extending Kirk to another contract...

Last Edit: Nov 15, 2023 16:25:52 GMT -6 by Uncle

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 17:53:39 GMT -6 via mobile suncoastvike and Uncle like this

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Post by Funkytown on Nov 15, 2023 17:53:39 GMT -6

Depending how the rest of the year plays out, Kirk or Dobbs and a QBOTF is still the way to go.

From what I've gathered, KO prefers a quarterback with extremely high football intelligence. I think there is a reason they went after someone like Dobbs in the first place. I just don't think a rookie comes in and does super well in KO's offense. Heck, even the vets struggle to put a full four quarters together.

Also, from what I've gathered ... KAM is hesitant to go all-in on the big decisions. He likes to have the best of both worlds so to speak and keep his options open. Not only that, this team wants to compete. He listens to the leaders' input, as part of the culture of collaboration. How does that factor into Cousins and Dobbs, who knows? TBD. But you have to keep one of them at this point. That was my point from Day 1. Playing a rookie QB in 2024 isn't any sexier now than it was a month ago. Nope. Stick with a reliable vet and let the QBOTF sit and learn for a bit. Go from there.

Last Edit: Nov 15, 2023 17:56:35 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 18:33:28 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Uncle on Nov 15, 2023 18:33:28 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 17:53:39 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

From what I've gathered, KO prefers a quarterback with extremely high football intelligence. I think there is a reason they went after someone like Dobbs in the first place. I just don't think a rookie comes in and does super well in KO's offense. Heck, even the vets struggle to put a full four quarters together.

Great point here, Funkytown , and it reminds me of O'Connell's interview on Pat McAfee's show after the Atlanta win where O'Connell talked about three things he and Kwesi looked for in a QB on the trade market: intelligence...athletic...and had experience playing in the NFL.

Here's the interview and O'Connell references those three things at the 1:25 mark:

And to further build on that, you can see now why they might have went after Jaren Hall, who is intelligent (tied for 3rd best S2 Cognition Test score with Levis, only behind Bryce Young and Jake Haener), is athletic/mobile (which Hall is) and has experience (Hall was a 2-yr starter at BYU)...

...and you start the see some of the attributes that Kwesi/O'Connell will be looking for in QB's if they go after anyone early in the 2024 Draft.

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 18:48:42 GMT -6 VFL likes this

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Post by idavike on Nov 15, 2023 18:48:42 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 18:33:28 GMT -6 Uncle said:

...and you start the see some of the attributes that Kwesi/O'Connell will be looking for in QB's if they go after anyone early in the 2024 Draft.

earlier in the year I was convinced Penix would be a good fit, but that was based on KAM/KOC success rate working with Kirk and how KOC can scheme using a pocket passer. Now things have changed, and while to early to tell with the Dobbler effect, one could argue for resigning Dobbs and then drafting a guy like either, Daniels, McCarthy, or Travis. I have to admit, it's been awhile since the Vikings have had a moblie QB and I have forgotten how fun it is to watch at the NFL level.

Last Edit: Nov 15, 2023 18:49:56 GMT -6 by idavike

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 19:01:09 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner likes this

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Post by VFL on Nov 15, 2023 19:01:09 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 12:57:36 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

It would be refreshing if the focus remains on moving this team forward this season with the current roster instead of Kirk-camp postering for his contract next year, in what could be viewed as trying to throw shade on the recent excitement with most every Vikings fan.

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 19:28:54 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on Nov 15, 2023 19:28:54 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 19:01:09 GMT -6 VFL said:

Nov 15, 2023 12:57:36 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

It would be refreshing if the focus remains on moving this team forward this season with the current roster instead of Kirk-camp postering for his contract next year, in what could be viewed as trying to throw shade on the recent excitement with most every Vikings fan.

I post 90% of the news updates here, whether I personally agree with what I share or not.

When Kirk news pops up, I'll post it. That's how it works. Maybe you've missed the dozens of Pro Dobbs posts of mine? That'd be awfully convenient. There's literally one three whole posts before your reply.

Check the thread title. The quarterback debate will live on. That's just how it's going to be until we find the guy. We can enjoy this year and think ahead. That's kind of how it works for diehards.

Last Edit: Nov 15, 2023 19:31:25 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 19:30:25 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by legendsofthenorth on Nov 15, 2023 19:30:25 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 19:01:09 GMT -6 VFL said:

Nov 15, 2023 12:57:36 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

It would be refreshing if the focus remains on moving this team forward this season with the current roster instead of Kirk-camp postering for his contract next year, in what could be viewed as trying to throw shade on the recent excitement with most every Vikings fan.

In all fairness Kirk was playing unbelievable football. Dont get me wrong, I want them to draft one but damn how fast people are forgotten in this league

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 19:32:09 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by legendsofthenorth on Nov 15, 2023 19:32:09 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 18:48:42 GMT -6 idavike said:

Nov 15, 2023 18:33:28 GMT -6 Uncle said:

...and you start the see some of the attributes that Kwesi/O'Connell will be looking for in QB's if they go after anyone early in the 2024 Draft.

earlier in the year I was convinced Penix would be a good fit, but that was based on KAM/KOC success rate working with Kirk and how KOC can scheme using a pocket passer. Now things have changed, and while to early to tell with the Dobbler effect, one could argue for resigning Dobbs and then drafting a guy like either, Daniels, McCarthy, or Travis. I have to admit, it's been awhile since the Vikings have had a moblie QB and I have forgotten how fun it is to watch at the NFL level.

MCCarthy is their target but he wont be at their slot. Well my target atleast 😉

Last Edit: Nov 15, 2023 19:32:41 GMT -6 by legendsofthenorth

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 20:19:22 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on Nov 15, 2023 20:19:22 GMT -6

On the drive back from Minnesota on Monday, I was talking about the ideal scenario...

It's good to see others exploring my ideas. Heck yeah!

What if the Vikings don’t want to make a decision? What if they decide there’s room on the roster for both Cousins and Dobbs? One site has suggested that it’s a possibility. . .actually, more than just a possibility, as they’re predicting that it’s going to happen.

Spotrac, a site that is dedicated to the contract side of the various sports leagues, has an article up projecting the next contracts for both Cousins and Dobbs (and Jared Goff, but who cares). In that article, they make it clear that they think the Vikings will re-sign both Cousins and Dobbs during the 2024 offseason.

First, they project the Vikings to sign Cousins to a 3-year, $120 million deal with $80 million guaranteed. That would probably be Cousins’ last big NFL contract, as he would be 39 by the time it was over with and probably ready to hang it up. On top of that, they rightly point out that Cousins would likely accept such a deal because of the nature of the injury he suffered.

That brings us to Dobbs, who Spotrac says the Vikings can re-sign for a two-year, $18 million price with $9 million guaranteed. That would make Dobbs the highest-paid backup quarterback in the league. It would also commit the Vikings to about $50 million/year at the quarterback position, assuming that Jaren Hall would stay around as the third-string quarterback.

While this would be an ideal situation for the Vikings in that it would give them both a quality starter and a backup that you know can actually win football games for you, I’m not sure how realistic it’s going to be a couple of months from now. If Dobbs keeps this up, his price tag is going to (rightly) continue to climb, and some team is likely going to roll the dice on him to be a starter. After all, if you remember back to the 2018 offseason, Case Keenum got a two-year, $36 million deal from Denver to be their starter.

Of course, he’s now on his fifth team in the six seasons since he left Minnesota, but the larger point is that he parlayed a great season as a backup into a hefty payday and made it pretty clear he wasn’t going to settle for a backup role. And if Dobbs keeps up at the rate he has in his first two games in Minnesota, he probably won’t, either.

Probably won't happen, but it's another thing to consider. As I said the other day, if the past few weeks have taught us anything, it's that we need a reliable QB2 and QB3. No more guys like Mannion. Quarterbacks have been dropping like flies for the past few years. The trend finally caught us, too.

If you're a team who is serious about remaining competitive, the backup quarterback situation is crucial. It's too bad we didn't see at least a game or two from Hall, because that's an important piece of the puzzle, too. Is he a reliable QB2 or not?

Last Edit: Nov 15, 2023 20:40:18 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Kirk, Or A Potential First Round QB in 2024? Nov 15, 2023 20:22:07 GMT -6 comet52 likes this

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Post by VFL on Nov 15, 2023 20:22:07 GMT -6

Nov 15, 2023 19:28:54 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Nov 15, 2023 19:01:09 GMT -6 VFL said:

It would be refreshing if the focus remains on moving this team forward this season with the current roster instead of Kirk-camp postering for his contract next year, in what could be viewed as trying to throw shade on the recent excitement with most every Vikings fan.

I post 90% of the news updates here, whether I personally agree with what I share or not.

When Kirk news pops up, I'll post it. That's how it works. Maybe you've missed the dozens of Pro Dobbs posts of mine? That'd be awfully convenient. There's literally one three whole posts before your reply.

Check the thread title. The quarterback debate will live on. That's just how it's going to be until we find the guy. We can enjoy this year and think ahead. That's kind of how it works for diehards.

My reply wasn't directed towards you personally as I don't shoot the messengers. Rather it was about the news itself. For some reason you seem to single me out regardless of the post. It would be nice if you applied the same respect/civility you demand/suggest in private messages to me.

Thank you for pointing out the thread title as I am totally incapable of deciphering such on my own. I also appreciate the education in your opinion on how it works for diehards. Geez.

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