Mackey and Judd

I mean I expect you to say this but your first post in this thread and some responses in the Kirk thread are what I am describing actually.

How much teams have won with Kirk leading the way is just a fact. We can get into the context but overall like I said there is a reason outside of this fan base most place him where the so called “haters” do when looking at the full picture. Keenum lead us further than Kirk has in 5 seasons here. The follow up to Kirks playoff win was a big issue just like it was with Keenums the year prior. That doesn’t mean people think keenum is a better qb but we paid a massive amount more for Kirk to take us to the next level. The offense just hasn’t been able to be elite despite that, only one season has it ranked higher in ppd than when keenum was the qb. That’s why keenum is referenced so often, context. The oline has been bad since before cousins (we averaged less than 4 yards per carry) and the defense was top 10 his first two years here.

I agree that Kirk can win some prime time games and lead comebacks. I thought last year he was very impressive in those aspects until the end of the giants game. Recently defense has definitely been the bigger issue. I am not sure you are necessarily taking the criticisms as a whole though and are misrepresenting what many are saying (like I was pointing out). This team as currently constructed and with an aging Cousins won’t win is different than saying Cousins on a completely loaded roster still couldn’t. The point many often make is that he isn’t good enough for the money we have paid (top 5 in his time here). People even in this thread have responded to the op with facts and corrections and it’s just crickets and the same rambling despite that. The ones that often respond with context/facts get ignored, misrepresented and called haters.

You can definitely argue that but it’s not like he has had major success himself since then. Keenum did lead that year playing the most important position, it’s the nature of being a qb. That he is generally a backup but helped produce that much is telling of how elite our weapons were (that’s even without cook most of that season). He did a good job of managing drives and making plays when needed even if he isn’t a better player than most starters. The oline has been pretty bad since before cousins, look at the starters in 2017 (we averaged less than 4 yards per carry). Keenum just excelled in escaping and buying time where cousins has issues in that area exposing it more.

I agree Zimmer never seemed to want Cousins from the start and should have managed not getting his way better. I get why he didn’t want him in the first place though given what we have seen at the same time. He may have been overrated as a cb guru but when the team was playing Zimmer ball with lesser QBs they were more successful than since we shifted to a high priced guy like cousins. He was a very good defensive coach and the team fell off when we couldn’t keep talent on that end or replace it. The offense was better when cousins himself threw less tds lol. It’s a horrible stat to use to judge and if the team as a whole is better with him throwing less then the extra ones are sort of meaningless.

Either way we were still not a top 10 team in ppd last year with Zimmer gone. It’s not just a Zimmer thing at this point, Cousins just isn’t the type to elevate an offense despite being paid so much over the years. He’s solid but overpaid and at this point in his career there is no reason to keep extending him with our roster. It’s not all his fault like I said but he has some blame. We had elite weapons, solid oc, top 10 defense and he was a major problem in that 49ers playoff game. The perception about him is based on that full context of what you have laid out and what I have. He doesn’t suck and it’s not all his fault but when he was surrounded with talent he became an issue. He has struggled a lot in big moments/games throughout his career. He usually gets ranked in the 11-15 range but was paid at the top of the league.

There has been a lot of coping out there about how Ingram "wasn't that bad" and how "we'll be fine with him" in 2023... and we also made zero impact additions in the trenches and lost Tomlinson.


Is it, though? I think we get more of the same that we saw in 2022 from him in 2023. It feels like we say this every year about him, and the primary difference has been his play in clutch situations pre 2021 and post 2021. I don't think there's a whole lot left to prove, he'll probably throw for 4000+ yards and 30 TDs again.


There are many who will always be miserable no matter what happens, but we've also never seen a Vikings championship before so we don't know exactly what would occur. I believe that the vast majority of fans would be riding the high of a championship through the next season and the optimism around the team would be over the moon for at least the next year or few - but we simply don't know because we've never come close.

No no, I didn't mean optimism for their actual life - I specifically said "optimism around the team". I don't believe anything about sports championships leading to better health or work! 

Well, that's certainly not how I interpret that phrase!

The oline was rated 29th in 2018 by PFF, and I quote: "Outside of left tackle Riley Reiff – who himself had some ugly outings, most notably Buffalo – the Vikings didn’t have a single offensive lineman with a top-80 grade this season. Their interior was quite easily one of the worst in the league. Tom Compton, Pat Elflein, and Mike Remmers combined to give up 18 sacks on the season." They went on to say that the IOL was terrible, and that most of the team took steps backward from 2017 (barring Diggs and Thielen).  Rhodes actually had one of his worst seasons.

Wider view, right?  The fact that the number of pressures from the IOL alone was putrid (and part of a recurring pattern) should also be a strong consideration, but legit, recorded reasons myseteriously become "excuses" to the armchair GM crowd.

2019?  Defense slipping, partially due to injuries, cost us some games including against Seattle. Cook brilliant until hurt (another pattern we know well), IOL still...itself, SF dominates us in the trenches (both ways) after our playoff win in NOLA.  SF would do the same thing to GB the following week.

Fair?

Yes, you insulting people who disagree with you on a QB who has done nothing for your favorite team is a prime example of how most Kirk defenders behave.  

Kirk didn't play alone, he played on a team that helped carry a backup QB to the NFCCG game.  How did that work out again?