Positives and negatives through 13 games

Reignman
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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 21, 2022 19:03:10 GMT -6 OdinHammer likes this

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Post by Reignman on Nov 21, 2022 19:03:10 GMT -6

Nov 21, 2022 8:02:01 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

I have been thinking a lot about a Kirk extension. I support him but I think it might be time to try and move on after 2023. I dunno, I go back and forth

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

The ceiling is exactly what it's been for years: win a game in the Playoffs, get their doors blown off when they face an opponent with a good Offensive and Defensive Line. And folks, that ain't gonna change any time soon.

This bit right here seems to contradict this next bit ...

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Positive is the NR bringing in a new culture. This is largely the same Team on Offense and the Defense has 2 actual additions from what Zimmer had the last two years and has produced much better results.

I mean I get what you're trying to say, I think, but what's the point of changing the culture if it leads to the same soft team and playoff results?

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

I am enjoying watching this Team

Again, this bit doesn't go with this bit ...

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

This is not a Team that is going to contend for a Superbowl any time soon.

You enjoy the team even though you know it's going to end in disappointment?

Nov 21, 2022 10:30:25 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Nov 21, 2022 1:22:20 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Whoa whoa whoa, I was told no stats?

That is not a stat, it's a record.

Is that your big move? Semantics lol? Well I hate to break it to you but, like wins/losses, stats are a "record" of what has happened, and records are just stats of wins and losses.

Nov 21, 2022 17:15:33 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

I think you have a pretty loose definition of "elite" compared to most.

Funkytown or en Fuegotown? *skeptic*

The Funk is on fire. *burn*

Nov 21, 2022 18:27:41 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

This season is going to end precisely the way I predicted before it started. One Playoff win followed by a keister kicking. And I don't legitimately see anything Kwesi can do to break that ceiling in 2023. He doesn't have the Draft Picks or the Cap Space to do anything except continue to work in the margins.

Exactly! That's why I keep saying if they don't win it this year, they're not going to next year. This isn't a young team that's going to get better with another year of experience. For this particular roster, experience is the enemy. And now we're dealing with what looks like 2 consecutive wasted draft classes, so even if Kwesi had the draft capital to play with next year, where's the confidence he's going to draft anyone that can contribute right away? And where's the confidence this coaching staff can even coach anyone up? Can we point to a single player that's been fixed from the Zimmer regime? Everyone is playing at the exact same level or they've regressed. It's a miracle we're 8-2.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

legendsofthenorth
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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 21, 2022 19:18:05 GMT -6 via mobile Reignman likes this

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Post by legendsofthenorth on Nov 21, 2022 19:18:05 GMT -6

Nov 21, 2022 19:03:10 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Nov 21, 2022 8:02:01 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

I have been thinking a lot about a Kirk extension. I support him but I think it might be time to try and move on after 2023. I dunno, I go back and forth

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

The ceiling is exactly what it's been for years: win a game in the Playoffs, get their doors blown off when they face an opponent with a good Offensive and Defensive Line. And folks, that ain't gonna change any time soon.

This bit right here seems to contradict this next bit ...

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Positive is the NR bringing in a new culture. This is largely the same Team on Offense and the Defense has 2 actual additions from what Zimmer had the last two years and has produced much better results.

I mean I get what you're trying to say, I think, but what's the point of changing the culture if it leads to the same soft team and playoff results?

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

I am enjoying watching this Team

Again, this bit doesn't go with this bit ...

Nov 21, 2022 9:22:56 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

This is not a Team that is going to contend for a Superbowl any time soon.

You enjoy the team even though you know it's going to end in disappointment?

Nov 21, 2022 10:30:25 GMT -6 comet52 said:

That is not a stat, it's a record.

Is that your big move? Semantics lol? Well I hate to break it to you but, like wins/losses, stats are a "record" of what has happened, and records are just stats of wins and losses.

Nov 21, 2022 17:15:33 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

I think you have a pretty loose definition of "elite" compared to most.

Funkytown or en Fuegotown? *skeptic*

The Funk is on fire. *burn*

Nov 21, 2022 18:27:41 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

This season is going to end precisely the way I predicted before it started. One Playoff win followed by a keister kicking. And I don't legitimately see anything Kwesi can do to break that ceiling in 2023. He doesn't have the Draft Picks or the Cap Space to do anything except continue to work in the margins.

Exactly! That's why I keep saying if they don't win it this year, they're not going to next year. This isn't a young team that's going to get better with another year of experience. For this particular roster, experience is the enemy. And now we're dealing with what looks like 2 consecutive wasted draft classes, so even if Kwesi had the draft capital to play with next year, where's the confidence he's going to draft anyone that can contribute right away? And where's the confidence this coaching staff can even coach anyone up? Can we point to a single player that's been fixed from the Zimmer regime? Everyone is playing at the exact same level or they've regressed. It's a miracle we're 8-2.

Players who are performing better under KOC
1. Pat Pete
2. Darrisaw
3. Cleveland
4. Bradbury
5. Tomlinson
6. Dantzler
7. Bynum
8. All of ST minus kicker

MidwinterViking
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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 21, 2022 19:24:17 GMT -6 Krauser likes this

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Post by MidwinterViking on Nov 21, 2022 19:24:17 GMT -6

Nov 21, 2022 18:27:41 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 21, 2022 17:37:29 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

Yeah probably. I would say for me it is that you are playing as one of the top 10 best in the league at your position. Others might have higher standards.

What's yours top 1, 3, 5 at your position?

I think Top 10 at their position is a fair definition of Elite. Hunter and Tomlinson are not Top 10, though. Top 20? Yes.

So that's JJ, the 2 Tackles, Z, Peterson and Hock. 6 out of 22 Starters.

Not in the Top 20? The rest of the O-Line. PFF grades aside they've been whooped by Philly, Washington and Dallas. And struggled against blitzing from Zona and the Fins.

Cook can still run like a gazelle in the open field. Problem is he has only gotten to said field a handful of times.

The LBs and Safeties can't cover the middle of the field. The baby Corners will be babies for at least another year. The DT depth sucks and they still don't have a legit interior pass rusher going on year whatever now.

The Receiving Corps after JJ is pedestrian. Kirk remains neither the problem nor the solution.

The only foundational building blocks are JJ, Darrisaw, O'Neill and Hockenson. Z and Peterson are on the wrong side of 30. I will add Tomlinson and Phillips to the list as long and Dalvin is extended at a reasonable price. Everything else is total unknowns.

This season is going to end precisely the way I predicted before it started. One Playoff win followed by a keister kicking. And I don't legitimately see anything Kwesi can do to break that ceiling in 2023. He doesn't have the Draft Picks or the Cap Space to do anything except continue to work in the margins.

Using your own definition then Cleveland is an elite guard. And having 6 / 22 in the elite category is really good.

Also key building blocks:

Dantzler - is a solid #2 corner

Hunter - still only 28 and has several more years left, there is every reason to add more years to his deal

Cleveland - Shown very good improvement from his first to second year on the left side and should be here for a while.

Then there is a list of guys who's future isn't written yet who are either fringe contributors, still developing or too young That list includes: KJ Osborn, Ed Ingram, Patrick Jones, Akalyb Evans, DJ Wonnum, Cam Bynum. And wild cards the new regime seemed to want: Lewis Cine, Andrew Booth, Jalen Reagor, Brian Asamoah. All 10 of those guys won't all work out, but there is a strong possibility 2-3 develop into core players.

The Vikings roster is in fine shape for the future.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 21, 2022 19:34:13 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Danchat on Nov 21, 2022 19:34:13 GMT -6

Nov 21, 2022 19:18:05 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

2. Darrisaw

Nov 21, 2022 19:18:05 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

7. Bynum

They were both rookies, plus Bynum only started 2 games last year... and PFF had him at elite in those two games, and below average now. *skeptic*

Nov 21, 2022 19:18:05 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

8. All of ST minus kicker

All? Nwangwu has been worse at returning kicks, Reagor is not a good punt returner... Wright is an improvement and the coverage units are solid, that is about it.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 22, 2022 2:20:30 GMT -6 via mobile legendsofthenorth likes this

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Post by giveemthehorns on Nov 22, 2022 2:20:30 GMT -6

My biggest concern from Sunday is TJ. Early in that game there were plays there for him to make. Plays that he is 100% capable of making. He's been an uber plus in literally everything but the endzone, we need to get him an easy one early on Thursday. If this team is gonna go full Voltron on the NFC, we need TJ to not drop touchdowns.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 22, 2022 14:25:18 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown likes this

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Post by FSUVike on Nov 22, 2022 14:25:18 GMT -6

Nov 21, 2022 19:24:17 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Nov 21, 2022 18:27:41 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

I think Top 10 at their position is a fair definition of Elite. Hunter and Tomlinson are not Top 10, though. Top 20? Yes.

So that's JJ, the 2 Tackles, Z, Peterson and Hock. 6 out of 22 Starters.

Not in the Top 20? The rest of the O-Line. PFF grades aside they've been whooped by Philly, Washington and Dallas. And struggled against blitzing from Zona and the Fins.

Cook can still run like a gazelle in the open field. Problem is he has only gotten to said field a handful of times.

The LBs and Safeties can't cover the middle of the field. The baby Corners will be babies for at least another year. The DT depth sucks and they still don't have a legit interior pass rusher going on year whatever now.

The Receiving Corps after JJ is pedestrian. Kirk remains neither the problem nor the solution.

The only foundational building blocks are JJ, Darrisaw, O'Neill and Hockenson. Z and Peterson are on the wrong side of 30. I will add Tomlinson and Phillips to the list as long and Dalvin is extended at a reasonable price. Everything else is total unknowns.

This season is going to end precisely the way I predicted before it started. One Playoff win followed by a keister kicking. And I don't legitimately see anything Kwesi can do to break that ceiling in 2023. He doesn't have the Draft Picks or the Cap Space to do anything except continue to work in the margins.

Using your own definition then Cleveland is an elite guard. And having 6 / 22 in the elite category is really good.

Also key building blocks:

Dantzler - is a solid #2 corner

Hunter - still only 28 and has several more years left, there is every reason to add more years to his deal

Cleveland - Shown very good improvement from his first to second year on the left side and should be here for a while.

Then there is a list of guys who's future isn't written yet who are either fringe contributors, still developing or too young That list includes: KJ Osborn, Ed Ingram, Patrick Jones, Akalyb Evans, DJ Wonnum, Cam Bynum. And wild cards the new regime seemed to want: Lewis Cine, Andrew Booth, Jalen Reagor, Brian Asamoah. All 10 of those guys won't all work out, but there is a strong possibility 2-3 develop into core players.

The Vikings roster is in fine shape for the future.

Please stop using PFF as your Holy Grail of grading. It's painfully obvious that Cleveland is nowhere near a Top 10 Guard.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 22, 2022 14:56:05 GMT -6

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Post by MidwinterViking on Nov 22, 2022 14:56:05 GMT -6

Nov 22, 2022 14:25:18 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 21, 2022 19:24:17 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Using your own definition then Cleveland is an elite guard. And having 6 / 22 in the elite category is really good.

Also key building blocks:

Dantzler - is a solid #2 corner

Hunter - still only 28 and has several more years left, there is every reason to add more years to his deal

Cleveland - Shown very good improvement from his first to second year on the left side and should be here for a while.

Then there is a list of guys who's future isn't written yet who are either fringe contributors, still developing or too young That list includes: KJ Osborn, Ed Ingram, Patrick Jones, Akalyb Evans, DJ Wonnum, Cam Bynum. And wild cards the new regime seemed to want: Lewis Cine, Andrew Booth, Jalen Reagor, Brian Asamoah. All 10 of those guys won't all work out, but there is a strong possibility 2-3 develop into core players.

The Vikings roster is in fine shape for the future.

Please stop using PFF as your Holy Grail of grading. It's painfully obvious that Cleveland is nowhere near a Top 10 Guard.

Ok - provide a better one.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 22, 2022 18:01:28 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown likes this

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Post by FSUVike on Nov 22, 2022 18:01:28 GMT -6

Nov 22, 2022 14:56:05 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Nov 22, 2022 14:25:18 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Please stop using PFF as your Holy Grail of grading. It's painfully obvious that Cleveland is nowhere near a Top 10 Guard.

Ok - provide a better one.

My eyes provide a better one. And he's given up the 5th most pressures. Ingram ranks first. Hardly what I would call building blocks.

Edit: the 3rd most pressures. So even worse than I thought.

Last Edit: Nov 22, 2022 18:34:13 GMT -6 by FSUVike

legendsofthenorth Ring of Honor Enter your message here... Posts: 5,723 Likes: 3,265	Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 22, 2022 21:05:52 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by legendsofthenorth on Nov 22, 2022 21:05:52 GMT -6 Positive: Appreciate no statistical data being used in this thread Negative: We might have to draft a CB again next year

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 22, 2022 21:47:41 GMT -6 MidwinterViking likes this

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Post by Danchat on Nov 22, 2022 21:47:41 GMT -6

Nov 22, 2022 21:05:52 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

Positive: Appreciate no statistical data being used in this thread

Negative: We might have to draft a CB again next year

I would expect Peterson probably returns and Dantzler is still under contract... plus Evans looked pretty good for a 4th rounder. Slot CB should be the primary need, and you don't need to spend a high pick on one of those.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 23, 2022 7:33:04 GMT -6

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Post by MidwinterViking on Nov 23, 2022 7:33:04 GMT -6

Nov 22, 2022 18:01:28 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 22, 2022 14:56:05 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Ok - provide a better one.

My eyes provide a better one. And he's given up the 5th most pressures. Ingram ranks first. Hardly what I would call building blocks.

Edit: the 3rd most pressures. So even worse than I thought.

In God we trust. All others must bring data. - A.E. Demming

My eyes tell me Cleveland stunk is first year, improved significantly when he moved back to the left side (where he said he was more comfortable), and continued his development this year. PFF (a place with actual data, and did take into account his pressure rate) seems to agree with that take.

The reality of the NFL is there aren't 64 starting guards good enough to keep the keyboard warriors happy. That makes a guard who is an elite run blocker and questionable pass blocker a good and valuable player. Everything about Cleveland says he is well on his way to earning a second contract here.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 23, 2022 12:12:45 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by FSUVike on Nov 23, 2022 12:12:45 GMT -6

Nov 23, 2022 7:33:04 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Nov 22, 2022 18:01:28 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

My eyes provide a better one. And he's given up the 5th most pressures. Ingram ranks first. Hardly what I would call building blocks.

Edit: the 3rd most pressures. So even worse than I thought.

In God we trust. All others must bring data. - A.E. Demming

My eyes tell me Cleveland stunk is first year, improved significantly when he moved back to the left side (where he said he was more comfortable), and continued his development this year. PFF (a place with actual data, and did take into account his pressure rate) seems to agree with that take.

The reality of the NFL is there aren't 64 starting guards good enough to keep the keyboard warriors happy. That makes a guard who is an elite run blocker and questionable pass blocker a good and valuable player. Everything about Cleveland says he is well on his way to earning a second contract here.

If you are going to extend a Guard who is a questionable pass blocker you'd better have a good to great pass blocking Center next to him. Which means you also need a good pass blocking RG so the Center can help Cleveland out when Teams line up their best pass rusher against him.

Right now opponents are trying to get their best pass rushers that are versatile enough to kick inside lined up across Ingram. So Ezra isn't even the primary focus and yet he's still giving up pressure left and right.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 23, 2022 13:39:36 GMT -6

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Post by WisconsinVike on Nov 23, 2022 13:39:36 GMT -6

positives: 1. No more Zimmer - and thankfully he left that lucky horseshoe for O'Connell

2. O'Connell doesn't treat the press like ignorant children

negatives: 1. the basic concept of Dona"shells" defense is the same as dancing in Catholic school -

stay at least two feet away from your partner at all times - under no circumstances is physical contact allowed.

2. Listening to O'Connell say after every game "I have to coach better"

quit talking about it and actually do it - it's getting really old

3. has anybody in this years Viking draft actually contributed positively on a regular basis? *poop*

Last Edit: Nov 23, 2022 14:45:36 GMT -6 by WisconsinVike

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 23, 2022 14:28:38 GMT -6 via mobile FSUVike likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Nov 23, 2022 14:28:38 GMT -6

Nov 23, 2022 12:12:45 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Nov 23, 2022 7:33:04 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

In God we trust. All others must bring data. - A.E. Demming

My eyes tell me Cleveland stunk is first year, improved significantly when he moved back to the left side (where he said he was more comfortable), and continued his development this year. PFF (a place with actual data, and did take into account his pressure rate) seems to agree with that take.

The reality of the NFL is there aren't 64 starting guards good enough to keep the keyboard warriors happy. That makes a guard who is an elite run blocker and questionable pass blocker a good and valuable player. Everything about Cleveland says he is well on his way to earning a second contract here.

If you are going to extend a Guard who is a questionable pass blocker you'd better have a good to great pass blocking Center next to him. Which means you also need a good pass blocking RG so the Center can help Cleveland out when Teams line up their best pass rusher against him.

Right now opponents are trying to get their best pass rushers that are versatile enough to kick inside lined up across Ingram. So Ezra isn't even the primary focus and yet he's still giving up pressure left and right.

That is what I am seeing too. Cleveland is serviceable if his Center and RG are good, but since they aren't, he is getting exposed frequently.

The Vikings RG, C and LG are 1st, 2nd and 3rd in most pressures given up at their positions. That doesn't scream progress to me it just seems like more of what we have seen for the past 4 years at those positions.

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Positives and negatives through 13 games Nov 23, 2022 15:38:51 GMT -6 via mobile legendsofthenorth and FSUVike like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Nov 23, 2022 15:38:51 GMT -6

Positives:
As trite as it is, the culture is better now than it was with Zimmer at the end. The team currently believes they are still in any game and doesn't stop fighting until the end.

The run D IS much better.

JJ just keeps getting better and better.

Peterson is a great CB and should be for another couple more seasons.

The safeties are playing well.

Z was a great signing.

The tackle position is set for years if injuries don't ruin Darrisaw.

We are 8-2.

Negatives:
Peterson is the only good CB the Vikings have. Dantzler and Sullivan are the biggest reasons the pass defense is as bad as it is and the Vikings need an upgrade there bigtime.

Hunter is not a 3-4 OLB. The Vikings should look to trade him this offseason and draft his replacement.

Cousins has regressed significantly. If JJ is taken away he can't do anything.

The Oline is still bad on the interior.

The offense has gotten worse with a new play caller, not better.

Donatell's D is living off of turnovers and it isn't sustainable. Without those turnovers you get games like Dallas.

We are 8-2.