What if Kevin is wrong?

whoskmoon
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 6:09:08 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 13, 2022 6:09:08 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 16:20:28 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Jul 12, 2022 14:36:40 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I am saying either he gets credit for getting a great season out of a backup QB, the best season out of a massive bust in Sam Bradford and getting more out of Kirk Cousins than Sean McVay or he doesn't get blamed for holding the QB back.

Your post is a contradiction. He either had nothing to do with the offense or he gets credit for Case, Sam and Cousins improving under his coaching.

Blowing a 5-0 start and being forced into quick check-downs because of lack of depth at O-line and running back was getting the most out of Sam? Sam got the most out Sam by being that rare healthy QB for an entire season...yet wasn't good enough to get to the post season. I agree with the previous poster that Zim gets little credit for Case. That was Pat. All Zimmer could add was maybe he will stay starter or not. Zim threw horseshoes like hand grenades and seemed even a little aggravated at times Case was helping to win games. The point I stopped watching his pressers.
To be fair though if we had that 2017 defense with Kirk we wouldn't have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons.

That is fine if you don't want to give credit for Zimmer helping those QBs succeed, just don't then also blame him for holding QBs back. He gets some credit for those QBs succeeding or he gets none of the blame for QBs failing.

suncoastvike
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 7:25:59 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Jul 13, 2022 7:25:59 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 6:09:08 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jul 12, 2022 16:20:28 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Blowing a 5-0 start and being forced into quick check-downs because of lack of depth at O-line and running back was getting the most out of Sam? Sam got the most out Sam by being that rare healthy QB for an entire season...yet wasn't good enough to get to the post season. I agree with the previous poster that Zim gets little credit for Case. That was Pat. All Zimmer could add was maybe he will stay starter or not. Zim threw horseshoes like hand grenades and seemed even a little aggravated at times Case was helping to win games. The point I stopped watching his pressers.
To be fair though if we had that 2017 defense with Kirk we wouldn't have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons.

That is fine if you don't want to give credit for Zimmer helping those QBs succeed, just don't then also blame him for holding QBs back. He gets some credit for those QBs succeeding or he gets none of the blame for QBs failing.

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andhesloose28
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -6 suncoastvike likes this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 13, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -6

You fail to mention Zim wanted nothing to do with the offense that is literally a fact. You have no argument to Zim not meeting with his highest paid player and QB until the last year of his coaching career. Your missing all the main points. I cant see you but there is no way your actually typing these QBs had their "best" years because of Zim with a straight face. No player, analyst, or coach would actually ever say that. While there is plenty of evidence and blurbs that easily refute that. Again im not a Zim hater at all, the guy was right Kirk wasnt a fit in 2018 for the team that was here and built. But that doesnt change the fact that Zim is a glorified DC and this offense will be better with Kevin at the helm. Its almost impossible to not happen.

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2022 12:06:30 GMT -6 by andhesloose28

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 13:03:47 GMT -6

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Post by CAMartin on Jul 13, 2022 13:03:47 GMT -6

I find the "Kirk is gonna be Kirk" bit of this conversation to be kinda hilarious.

Kirk started in a notably bipolar team, that considered him to be an unwanted consolation prize after they broke RGIII.

He came here, to an increasingly-obsolete HC that didn't want him, couldn't seem to put good OGs in front of him, and whose vaunted defenses were rated in the 30s while Kirk's protection was rated in the mid-late 20s.

I'll be the first to state taht I'm not entirely sure who Kirk Cousins is, really. Washington has been a complete C-F since Snyder bought the team, and Zimmer didn't seem to like a single Vikings QB not named Teddy...so, it's borderline impossible to really gauge Kirk's actual ceiling in a functional setting...

...unless you look at the "most consectutive 25+ TD seasons with 3000+ yards" part of things, along with some other metrics, that utterly derail his "checkdown charlie" club.

Admittedly, I have no use for his hate club. I think accusing someone that doesn't call his own plays and wasn't even really allowed audibles to be a "stat padder" to show a tragic lack of understanding of football...period. No, he ain't perfect. On the other hand, I saw NO make fools of both Rodgers and Brady last season, while neither Mahomes nor Allen got to the Superb Owl...so....

OK, KOC...time to earn that money and acclaim...!

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 13:12:48 GMT -6 suncoastvike and andhesloose28 like this

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Post by Danchat on Jul 13, 2022 13:12:48 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

You fail to mention Zim wanted nothing to do with the offense that is literally a fact. You have no argument to Zim not meeting with his highest paid player and QB until the last year of his coaching career. Your missing all the main points. I cant see you but there is no way your actually typing these QBs had their "best" years because of Zim with a straight face. No player, analyst, or coach would actually ever say that. While there is plenty of evidence and blurbs that easily refute that. Again im not a Zim hater at all, the guy was right Kirk wasnt a fit in 2018 for the team that was here and built. But that doesnt change the fact that Zim is a glorified DC and this offense will be better with Kevin at the helm. Its almost impossible to not happen.

I think whoskmoon's point is if that Zimmer had nothing to do with the offense, then the idea that 'he was holding the unit back from being great' is overblown since he was letting our offensive coordinators do what they can to maximize Kirk. Stefanski and Gary Kubiak did a solid job even though they were 'held back' because the HC wouldn't meet with Kirk on the regular basis, or at least that's the narrative I'm seeing.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 13:58:08 GMT -6 via mobile andhesloose28, lostdonkey, and 1 more like this

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Post by FSUVike on Jul 13, 2022 13:58:08 GMT -6

Something I think is definitely overblown is the notion that because Cousins was with the WFT when McVay and O'Connell were there we somehow already know how he performs in the McVay scheme.

As if McVay had already perfected his system and Gruden had no input at all. As if Kirk is the exact same Player he was back then. And we don't even know how much of McVay's current system Kevin is even going to keep, let alone how much Kirk might have experience in from back then.

That was long enough ago that it really isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2022 14:01:06 GMT -6 by FSUVike

andhesloose28
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:02:18 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 13, 2022 14:02:18 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 13:12:48 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Jul 13, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

You fail to mention Zim wanted nothing to do with the offense that is literally a fact. You have no argument to Zim not meeting with his highest paid player and QB until the last year of his coaching career. Your missing all the main points. I cant see you but there is no way your actually typing these QBs had their "best" years because of Zim with a straight face. No player, analyst, or coach would actually ever say that. While there is plenty of evidence and blurbs that easily refute that. Again im not a Zim hater at all, the guy was right Kirk wasnt a fit in 2018 for the team that was here and built. But that doesnt change the fact that Zim is a glorified DC and this offense will be better with Kevin at the helm. Its almost impossible to not happen.

I think whoskmoon 's point is if that Zimmer had nothing to do with the offense, then the idea that 'he was holding the unit back from being great' is overblown since he was letting our offensive coordinators do what they can to maximize Kirk. Stefanski and Gary Kubiak did a solid job even though they were 'held back' because the HC wouldn't meet with Kirk on the regular basis, or at least that's the narrative I'm seeing.

Yeah I get it, but that leads me to my original point that having an actual relationship with the HC and a very good offensive mind can only be better. I was never knocking Zim. He just didnt have a positive impact on the offense that is all im saying. By 2019 the run run narrative was gone because his defense wasnt good enough to talk crap about the offense.

andhesloose28
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:06:11 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 13, 2022 14:06:11 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 13:58:08 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Something I think is definitely overblown is the notion that because Cousins was with the WFT when McVay and O'Connell were there we somehow already know how he performs in the McVay scheme.

As if McVay had already perfected his system and Gruden had no input at all. As if Kirk is the exact same Player he was back then. And we don't even know how much of McVay's current system Kevin is even going to keep, let alone how much Kirk might have experience in from back then.

That was long enough ago that it really isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Very good point. Not to mention it is totally different when the guy your working directly with is now the HC as well. We dont know what goes on behind closed doors. Just cause a guy was your OC you still have the HC as a boss. Its just a scenario we have never seen before that we are about to this year and its hard to not be excited about it. Is Kirk going to turn into Mahomes? No. But you know hes going to put in this best possible position to succeed, and the offense in general is going to be something we haven't seen. These are just facts.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:24:53 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 13, 2022 14:24:53 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

You fail to mention Zim wanted nothing to do with the offense that is literally a fact. You have no argument to Zim not meeting with his highest paid player and QB until the last year of his coaching career. Your missing all the main points. I cant see you but there is no way your actually typing these QBs had their "best" years because of Zim with a straight face. No player, analyst, or coach would actually ever say that. While there is plenty of evidence and blurbs that easily refute that. Again im not a Zim hater at all, the guy was right Kirk wasnt a fit in 2018 for the team that was here and built. But that doesnt change the fact that Zim is a glorified DC and this offense will be better with Kevin at the helm. Its almost impossible to not happen.

How do we know Zimmer didnt want to use Case for another year (or 2)? The Cousins experiment has failed completely, how could Case have been worse? Zimmer wouldnt have been so behind the 8 ball in '18 if he didnt have Cousins cap.

No one knows, esp with Zimmer. And LOL at KOC being better as a HC. What do you base that on? Your gut? My gut says its going to take years for things to get better with KAM and KOC. If they ever do. Harbough ,might have been a lot bet if the Wilfs didnt have to try and be the GM. Red had better teams with no money, then the teams lately. Need new owners.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:32:33 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 13, 2022 14:32:33 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 13:03:47 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

"most consectutive 25+ TD seasons with 3000+ yards" part of things, along with some other metrics, that utterly derail his "checkdown charlie" club.

Jul 13, 2022 13:03:47 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

"most consectutive 25+ TD seasons with 3000+ yards" part of things, along with some other metrics, that utterly derail his "checkdown charlie" club.

And where did this get us other then behind in cap debt and Kirk being a millionaire? Im glad youre happy with mediocrity. I want us to be the king in our division, then the king of the NFC, and then the king of the SB. Im over Cousins. Have been since I heard Ricky panicked again and bought a QB.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:35:01 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 13, 2022 14:35:01 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 13:58:08 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Something I think is definitely overblown is the notion that because Cousins was with the WFT when McVay and O'Connell were there we somehow already know how he performs in the McVay scheme.

As if McVay had already perfected his system and Gruden had no input at all. As if Kirk is the exact same Player he was back then. And we don't even know how much of McVay's current system Kevin is even going to keep, let alone how much Kirk might have experience in from back then.

That was long enough ago that it really isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Well a lot of fans thinks it is a fair comparison. But it doesnt jive with the KOC is now god here in MN.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:35:14 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 13, 2022 14:35:14 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 14:24:53 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Jul 13, 2022 12:05:20 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

You fail to mention Zim wanted nothing to do with the offense that is literally a fact. You have no argument to Zim not meeting with his highest paid player and QB until the last year of his coaching career. Your missing all the main points. I cant see you but there is no way your actually typing these QBs had their "best" years because of Zim with a straight face. No player, analyst, or coach would actually ever say that. While there is plenty of evidence and blurbs that easily refute that. Again im not a Zim hater at all, the guy was right Kirk wasnt a fit in 2018 for the team that was here and built. But that doesnt change the fact that Zim is a glorified DC and this offense will be better with Kevin at the helm. Its almost impossible to not happen.

How do we know Zimmer didnt want to use Case for another year (or 2)? The Cousins experiment has failed completely, how could Case have been worse? Zimmer wouldnt have been so behind the 8 ball in '18 if he didnt have Cousins cap.

No one knows, esp with Zimmer. And LOL at KOC being better as a HC. What do you base that on? Your gut? My gut says its going to take years for things to get better with KAM and KOC. If they ever do. Harbough ,might have been a lot bet if the Wilfs didnt have to try and be the GM. Red had better teams with no money, then the teams lately. Need new owners.

I dont get what your saying about Case? I literally said Zim was right that Kirk wasnt a fit to our team...Think your reading that wrong

And when did I say KOC will be a better HC? In my other posts I talk about the offense and Kirk which will be better under Kevin. No there is no evidence to claim this but basing it off of them not losing their OC to another HC coaching job every year, and the healthy relationship kevin and kirk will have, and mixed in with Kevin being a former QB and Mcvay obv wanted him around until he no longer could block him from interviews, Id say there is a pretty good chance that our OFFENSE will be in the best shape its been in a while.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:38:41 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 13, 2022 14:38:41 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 14:35:14 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 13, 2022 14:24:53 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

How do we know Zimmer didnt want to use Case for another year (or 2)? The Cousins experiment has failed completely, how could Case have been worse? Zimmer wouldnt have been so behind the 8 ball in '18 if he didnt have Cousins cap.

No one knows, esp with Zimmer. And LOL at KOC being better as a HC. What do you base that on? Your gut? My gut says its going to take years for things to get better with KAM and KOC. If they ever do. Harbough ,might have been a lot bet if the Wilfs didnt have to try and be the GM. Red had better teams with no money, then the teams lately. Need new owners.

I dont get what your saying about Case? I literally said Zim was right that Kirk wasnt a fit to our team...Think your reading that wrong

And when did I say KOC will be a better HC? In my other posts I talk about the offense and Kirk which will be better under Kevin. No there is no evidence to claim this but basing it off of them not losing their OC to another HC coaching job every year, and the healthy relationship kevin and kirk will have, and mixed in with Kevin being a former QB and Mcvay obv wanted him around until he no longer could block him from interviews, Id say there is a pretty good chance that our OFFENSE will be in the best shape its been in a while.

Your welcome. But I didnt read it wrong. I was saying Zimmer didnt want Kirk but wanted to stick with Case. If for nothing else, the fans loved Case. Not so much with Cousins.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 14:50:23 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 13, 2022 14:50:23 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 14:38:41 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Jul 13, 2022 14:35:14 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

I dont get what your saying about Case? I literally said Zim was right that Kirk wasnt a fit to our team...Think your reading that wrong

And when did I say KOC will be a better HC? In my other posts I talk about the offense and Kirk which will be better under Kevin. No there is no evidence to claim this but basing it off of them not losing their OC to another HC coaching job every year, and the healthy relationship kevin and kirk will have, and mixed in with Kevin being a former QB and Mcvay obv wanted him around until he no longer could block him from interviews, Id say there is a pretty good chance that our OFFENSE will be in the best shape its been in a while.

Your welcome. But I didnt read it wrong. I was saying Zimmer didnt want Kirk but wanted to stick with Case. If for nothing else, the fans loved Case. Not so much with Cousins.

Fans love of players dont win rings. First of all Zim never really liked Case either, because he was too wild with the ball. So he likely wouldnt have been back either, and the broncos paid him far more anyway. Kirk is a better QB than Case, so in theory they brought him in thinking it would bring them over the top. Obviously there is a lot more thats needed to go into the equation that Rick and likely the Wilfs didnt realize.The year in general was a fluke, everything went perfect. Next year Oline was significantly worse, mixed with Kirk not being as much of a magician as Case to mask it. Again Ill be first to admit and have said Zim was right that Kirk was not a fit for this team.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 16:41:19 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 13, 2022 16:41:19 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2022 14:50:23 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 13, 2022 14:38:41 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Your welcome. But I didnt read it wrong. I was saying Zimmer didnt want Kirk but wanted to stick with Case. If for nothing else, the fans loved Case. Not so much with Cousins.

Fans love of players dont win rings. First of all Zim never really liked Case either, because he was too wild with the ball. So he likely wouldnt have been back either, and the broncos paid him far more anyway. Kirk is a better QB than Case, so in theory they brought him in thinking it would bring them over the top. Obviously there is a lot more thats needed to go into the equation that Rick and likely the Wilfs didnt realize.The year in general was a fluke, everything went perfect. Next year Oline was significantly worse, mixed with Kirk not being as much of a magician as Case to mask it. Again Ill be first to admit and have said Zim was right that Kirk was not a fit for this team.

Every time I dont think i could disagree with you more, you make a post like this. You know what doesnt wiin rings? KIRK COUSINS.

He likely wound have kept Case. He didnt say he was wild. He didnt like him taking chances. Well those throws got us further than Cousins ever came close to. Neither of us know what Zimmer would have done given the chance. Why the hate for

Case? His stats wearnt as good as Cousins? Who the F cares. Wins matter, not stats. LOL, calling it luck.

You keep saying you know Kirk wasnt the right fit, But you know Case wasnt? Whatever.