What if Kevin is wrong?

whoskmoon
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 12:40:54 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 12, 2022 12:40:54 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 9:49:29 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 12, 2022 9:18:57 GMT -6 Danchat said:

While that is a good point, other teams are going to be making mistakes on QBs more often than not. That's just the nature of the beast.

Eh, was Kirk that much better in the Kubiak scheme than the McVay one? I looked back at the numbers and they're not that much different - and I've made the claim that Kirk hasn't improved that much over his 7 years as a full-time starter. It's also been since 2016 when McVay was Kirk's OC, which is a long time ago in football - I expect KOC to have new ideas added over the years with their success with the Rams. I think it's realistic to think that Kirk can improve, but we shouldn't take it for granted like a lot of Vikings fans are.

For me its not even about comparing Kubiak to Mcvays. Its mostly just not having Zimmer here and any influence he had, combined with what should be a very healthy relationship with Kevin and Kirk. Hopefully Kirk will feel more comfortable taking those shots and Kevin can get that out of him. I want to see more INTS!!! The oline is the second biggest factor and again will likely determine how elite this offense will be. While Bradbury still scares the lights outta me you have to assume RG is going to be a lot better which is huge.

For a HC who apparently held his QB back, Zimmer sure did have a lot of success improving QBs. Sam Bradford, Case Keenum AND Kirk Cousins all had their best seasons under Zimmer. How does that happen with "Zimmer's influence" holding them back?

andhesloose28
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 12:58:10 GMT -6 HunterMorrow and suncoastvike like this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 12, 2022 12:58:10 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 12:40:54 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jul 12, 2022 9:49:29 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

For me its not even about comparing Kubiak to Mcvays. Its mostly just not having Zimmer here and any influence he had, combined with what should be a very healthy relationship with Kevin and Kirk. Hopefully Kirk will feel more comfortable taking those shots and Kevin can get that out of him. I want to see more INTS!!! The oline is the second biggest factor and again will likely determine how elite this offense will be. While Bradbury still scares the lights outta me you have to assume RG is going to be a lot better which is huge.

For a HC who apparently held his QB back, Zimmer sure did have a lot of success improving QBs. Sam Bradford, Case Keenum AND Kirk Cousins all had their best seasons under Zimmer. How does that happen with "Zimmer's influence" holding them back?

Oh come on lol I dont hate Zimmer and enjoyed his time here, thought he was going to be the one to deliver us one but you just sound foolish and biased. The guy wanted nothing to do with the offense. Which I dont even really care I liked Zimmer ball (2015-2017) he ended up being right that Kirk didnt fit into this team, which he built. Zim never wanted Kirk, which again I really dont care because Zim was right, spending all that money on a QB was not how this team was built. Zim wanted his defense to control the game and the offense not make mistakes. That is literally facts until Kirk came. Regardless as the head coach you have to either quit or adapt at that point. He never built a relationship with Kirk.

Anyways Ill give you Case there, but that has mostly to do with Shurmur scheme and the talent we had. Your really claiming Zimmer made all these QBs better? You cant really believe that. I just meant having an actual relationship with Kevin will be better than what Zimmer brought to the offense, which was literally nothing. He didnt even sit down and talk with Kirk about the game plan or anything until this year. Come on.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2022 13:01:23 GMT -6 by andhesloose28

Jor-El
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 12:58:42 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 12, 2022 12:58:42 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 9:44:29 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 12, 2022 8:24:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Buffalo and KC needed a bunch of teams to make mistakes prior to them drafting their guy though. In 2017, Cleveland, Chicago, SF, Jacksonville, NYJ, MN, Cincy, AZ, Buffalo and Denver all should have been looking to improve the QB spot in that draft and either stupidly traded away their pick, passed on Mahomes or decided not to move up and get him with more ammunition than KC had.

In 2018, Buffalo was incredibly lucky Mayfield, Barkley, Darnold and Chubb were selected by QB needy teams before the best QB in that draft class was.

Relying on other teams to make stupid mistakes just doesn't seem like a good strategy for improving the QB spot and I would prefer the Vikings rely more on strategy and ability to identify a great QB than luck.

So you wake up every morning and call last nights lotto numbers?

Pretty easy to say other teams made mistakes and Bills and Cheifs look like legends now. Its all after the fact. The draft is a gamble, always was always will be. The number 1 QB taken next year may turn out to be a dud while the number 5 guy is the next HOFer. No one truly knows. You just have to take that chance at some point. Next year seems to be a good one to do so.

Teams make mistakes but I think we underemphasize the situation of each QB. Say that the Bears had drafted Mahomes and the Chiefs settled for Trubiskey. I'm not going to go so far as to say their careers would be reversed, but do you think Mahomes, who was not a finished product out of college, would have excelled if he was thrown into the Bears' starting lineup in week 5? And I actually think if Trubiskey had Andy Mahomes coaching him, and was given a year to sit and learn behind Alex Smith and then played in the KC offense...well, probably not quite the high results of Mahomes, but you get the idea. As for Josh Allen, IMO he still would have played well if the Browns had picked him, but if he was thrown into the dumpster fire of the Jets?

My point is (obviously) - if O'Connell can coach and develop QBs, he might be fine without getting the #1 overall pick. If he can't coach them, he could draft Trevor Lawrence and he'll play like - well, like Trevor Lawrence did last season.

But another thing: neither the Chiefs or the Bills got their great QBs in the bottom half of the draft, but picked those "steals" 10th and 7th overall respectively. So if the argument is that O'Connell can identify and develop the next young star QB, OK, but he still needs a pick somewhere in the top 10. Vikings owners and Kwesi better be ready to pay the price to move up that high.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2022 13:04:13 GMT -6 by Jor-El

Will
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 12:59:38 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by Will on Jul 12, 2022 12:59:38 GMT -6

The longer QBs such as Favre and Manning played, the better they got at reading defenses and going to the best play. It made Favre very difficult to beat in his later years at Green Bay. Obviously, I'm not saying Cousins is Favre or Manning; I am saying that QBs get better at recognizing defenses, and if they have the green light to check out of bad plays and into good ones, they get better results. Cousins has shown better play recognition since he has been here, and when he is not being hurried, he is good.

Cousins should have the freedom to check out of bad plays and get into better plays. O'Connell and Phillips are getting an older, wiser Cousins than they had before. If the scheme and the line are even a little better, the Vikings should convert more 3rd downs and score more points. Over the course of a game, this might translate into two to four more pass attempts per game, another TD or FG, and 250 to 500 more yards passing per season. 4,500 to 5,000 yards and 40+ TD passes is possible. At those numbers, and with an improved Defense, Cousins improves his numbers and wins more games. The Vikings contend with more teams.

andhesloose28
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 13:04:20 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 12, 2022 13:04:20 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 12:58:42 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jul 12, 2022 9:44:29 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

So you wake up every morning and call last nights lotto numbers?

Pretty easy to say other teams made mistakes and Bills and Cheifs look like legends now. Its all after the fact. The draft is a gamble, always was always will be. The number 1 QB taken next year may turn out to be a dud while the number 5 guy is the next HOFer. No one truly knows. You just have to take that chance at some point. Next year seems to be a good one to do so.

Teams make mistakes but I think we underemphasize the situation of each QB. Say that the Bears had drafted Mahomes and the Chiefs settled for Trubiskey. I'm not going to go so far as to say their careers would be reversed, but do you think Mahomes, who was not a finished product out of college, would have excelled if he was thrown into the Bears' starting lineup in week 5? And I actually think if Trubiskey had Andy Mahomes coaching him, and was given a year to sit and learn behind Alex Smith and then played in the KC offense...well, probably not quite the high results of Mahomes, but you get the idea. As for Josh Allen, IMO he still would have played well if the Browns had picked him, but if he was thrown into the dumpster fire of the Jets?

My point is (obviously) - if O'Connell can coach and develop QBs, he might be fine without getting the #1 overall pick. If he can't coach them, he could draft Trevor Lawrence and he'll play like - well, like Trevor Lawrence did last season.

But another thing: neither the Chiefs or the Bills got their great QBs in the bottom half of the draft, but picked them 10th and 7th overall respectively. So if the argument is that O'Connell can identify and develop the next young star QB, OK, but he still needs a pick somewhere in the top 10. Vikings management, and Kwesi, better be ready to pay the price to move up that high.

Your 100% right and great point that people don't realize. Coaching and situations plays a lot of factors in careers as well, especially young QBs. Im actually very intruiged with Mitch still I wanted us to bring him in and move on from Kirk. I wouldnt be surprised to see him turn it around in Pitt if he gets that chance. He looked different in Buffalo, I know only preseason but still. I also wouldve liked him to follow Daboll to the Giants.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 14:30:02 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 12, 2022 14:30:02 GMT -6

Jul 9, 2022 20:50:32 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Jul 9, 2022 19:03:58 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

I certainly wouldnt be ok with it. KOC is a yes man, as is KAM. KOC hasnt called a play in his NFL career. But if the Wilfs admit, err I mean KOC admits it was a bad idea and moves on, that would help the loss of another year. Thanks Kirk, your a superstar.

Ramble on.............

WTF is wrong with you. A lot more people think Cousins is a mistake. You have a different view so you make comments like 'ramble on'. Although a great song, its just another insult you try to throw at people who disagree with you.

whoskmoon
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 14:36:40 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 12, 2022 14:36:40 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 12:58:10 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 12, 2022 12:40:54 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

For a HC who apparently held his QB back, Zimmer sure did have a lot of success improving QBs. Sam Bradford, Case Keenum AND Kirk Cousins all had their best seasons under Zimmer. How does that happen with "Zimmer's influence" holding them back?

Oh come on lol I dont hate Zimmer and enjoyed his time here, thought he was going to be the one to deliver us one but you just sound foolish and biased. The guy wanted nothing to do with the offense. Which I dont even really care I liked Zimmer ball (2015-2017) he ended up being right that Kirk didnt fit into this team, which he built. Zim never wanted Kirk, which again I really dont care because Zim was right, spending all that money on a QB was not how this team was built. Zim wanted his defense to control the game and the offense not make mistakes. That is literally facts until Kirk came. Regardless as the head coach you have to either quit or adapt at that point. He never built a relationship with Kirk.

Anyways Ill give you Case there, but that has mostly to do with Shurmur scheme and the talent we had. Your really claiming Zimmer made all these QBs better? You cant really believe that. I just meant having an actual relationship with Kevin will be better than what Zimmer brought to the offense, which was literally nothing. He didnt even sit down and talk with Kirk about the game plan or anything until this year. Come on.

I am saying either he gets credit for getting a great season out of a backup QB, the best season out of a massive bust in Sam Bradford and getting more out of Kirk Cousins than Sean McVay or he doesn't get blamed for holding the QB back.

Your post is a contradiction. He either had nothing to do with the offense or he gets credit for Case, Sam and Cousins improving under his coaching.

whoskmoon
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 14:42:36 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 12, 2022 14:42:36 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 9:44:29 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 12, 2022 8:24:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Buffalo and KC needed a bunch of teams to make mistakes prior to them drafting their guy though. In 2017, Cleveland, Chicago, SF, Jacksonville, NYJ, MN, Cincy, AZ, Buffalo and Denver all should have been looking to improve the QB spot in that draft and either stupidly traded away their pick, passed on Mahomes or decided not to move up and get him with more ammunition than KC had.

In 2018, Buffalo was incredibly lucky Mayfield, Barkley, Darnold and Chubb were selected by QB needy teams before the best QB in that draft class was.

Relying on other teams to make stupid mistakes just doesn't seem like a good strategy for improving the QB spot and I would prefer the Vikings rely more on strategy and ability to identify a great QB than luck.

So you wake up every morning and call last nights lotto numbers?

Pretty easy to say other teams made mistakes and Bills and Cheifs look like legends now. Its all after the fact. The draft is a gamble, always was always will be. The number 1 QB taken next year may turn out to be a dud while the number 5 guy is the next HOFer. No one truly knows. You just have to take that chance at some point. Next year seems to be a good one to do so.

I will answer your question with a question. Is it more likely I earn my fortune playing the lottery or working hard, investing smartly and having good financial planning?

The Vikings had the opportunity to increase their chances of securing the best QB in the 2023 draft and they chose not to take it. So if their plan was improve at QB in the 2023 draft what they did decreased their chances of achieving their plan.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 14:48:15 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 12, 2022 14:48:15 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 14:42:36 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The Vikings had the opportunity to increase their chances of securing the best QB in the 2023 draft and they chose not to take it. So if their plan was improve at QB in the 2023 draft what they did decreased their chances of achieving their plan.

Just to be clear, are you talking about their 2022 draft trade-down strategy? Or whether they are going to tank effectively??

whoskmoon
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 15:05:58 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 12, 2022 15:05:58 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 14:48:15 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jul 12, 2022 14:42:36 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The Vikings had the opportunity to increase their chances of securing the best QB in the 2023 draft and they chose not to take it. So if their plan was improve at QB in the 2023 draft what they did decreased their chances of achieving their plan.

Just to be clear, are you talking about their 2022 draft trade-down strategy? Or whether they are going to tank effectively??

Their trade down philosophy AND their unwillingness to take a step back this year so they can cling to the opportunity of winning 10 games and get bounced in the first or second round.

mikenessfan Living Legend Posts: 20,403 Likes: 2,561	What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 15:10:00 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mikenessfan on Jul 12, 2022 15:10:00 GMT -6 I think the wilfs have the most to do with retaining cousins. At least that is what judd zulgad eluded to on their podcast. I believe it too as it makes since.

suncoastvike
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 16:20:28 GMT -6 andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by suncoastvike on Jul 12, 2022 16:20:28 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 14:36:40 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jul 12, 2022 12:58:10 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Oh come on lol I dont hate Zimmer and enjoyed his time here, thought he was going to be the one to deliver us one but you just sound foolish and biased. The guy wanted nothing to do with the offense. Which I dont even really care I liked Zimmer ball (2015-2017) he ended up being right that Kirk didnt fit into this team, which he built. Zim never wanted Kirk, which again I really dont care because Zim was right, spending all that money on a QB was not how this team was built. Zim wanted his defense to control the game and the offense not make mistakes. That is literally facts until Kirk came. Regardless as the head coach you have to either quit or adapt at that point. He never built a relationship with Kirk.

Anyways Ill give you Case there, but that has mostly to do with Shurmur scheme and the talent we had. Your really claiming Zimmer made all these QBs better? You cant really believe that. I just meant having an actual relationship with Kevin will be better than what Zimmer brought to the offense, which was literally nothing. He didnt even sit down and talk with Kirk about the game plan or anything until this year. Come on.

I am saying either he gets credit for getting a great season out of a backup QB, the best season out of a massive bust in Sam Bradford and getting more out of Kirk Cousins than Sean McVay or he doesn't get blamed for holding the QB back.

Your post is a contradiction. He either had nothing to do with the offense or he gets credit for Case, Sam and Cousins improving under his coaching.

Blowing a 5-0 start and being forced into quick check-downs because of lack of depth at O-line and running back was getting the most out of Sam? Sam got the most out Sam by being that rare healthy QB for an entire season...yet wasn't good enough to get to the post season. I agree with the previous poster that Zim gets little credit for Case. That was Pat. All Zimmer could add was maybe he will stay starter or not. Zim threw horseshoes like hand grenades and seemed even a little aggravated at times Case was helping to win games. The point I stopped watching his pressers.
To be fair though if we had that 2017 defense with Kirk we wouldn't have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2022 16:26:31 GMT -6 by suncoastvike

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 16:37:42 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid likes this

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 12, 2022 16:37:42 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 16:20:28 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

To be fair though if we had that 2017 defense with Kirk we wouldn't have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons.

If we had that 2017 OL I don't think Kirk would be walking any more.

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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 12, 2022 17:47:26 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Jul 12, 2022 17:47:26 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 16:37:42 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jul 12, 2022 16:20:28 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

To be fair though if we had that 2017 defense with Kirk we wouldn't have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons.

If we had that 2017 OL I don't think Kirk would be walking any more.

Yeah I wish Kirk had Case's eyes in the back of his head and ability to bend a little at the waist. Other then that I still like Kirk's game better. The chemistry has never been equal though with Case and that 2017 team.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2022 17:50:13 GMT -6 by suncoastvike

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whoskmoon
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What if Kevin is wrong? Jul 13, 2022 6:07:12 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 13, 2022 6:07:12 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2022 12:59:38 GMT -6 Will said:

The longer QBs such as Favre and Manning played, the better they got at reading defenses and going to the best play. It made Favre very difficult to beat in his later years at Green Bay. Obviously, I'm not saying Cousins is Favre or Manning; I am saying that QBs get better at recognizing defenses, and if they have the green light to check out of bad plays and into good ones, they get better results. Cousins has shown better play recognition since he has been here, and when he is not being hurried, he is good.

Cousins should have the freedom to check out of bad plays and get into better plays. O'Connell and Phillips are getting an older, wiser Cousins than they had before. If the scheme and the line are even a little better, the Vikings should convert more 3rd downs and score more points. Over the course of a game, this might translate into two to four more pass attempts per game, another TD or FG, and 250 to 500 more yards passing per season. 4,500 to 5,000 yards and 40+ TD passes is possible. At those numbers, and with an improved Defense, Cousins improves his numbers and wins more games. The Vikings contend with more teams.

Favre was the same QB 10 years in as he was 5 years in, but Manning certainly honed his ability to read defenses as his career progressed. However, it was always a strength of his he just got better at it. So while his athletic ability declined, his decision making got better and he was able to make up for it.

That is a weakness of the current QB who struggles beyond his first read. So when his physical abilities decline, he will decline rapidly as well. There is a reason elite QBs last so long while average QBs decline rapidly.