Retool or Rebuild for 2022?

FSUVike
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 21, 2021 19:20:22 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by FSUVike on Dec 21, 2021 19:20:22 GMT -6

Dec 21, 2021 15:22:52 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 21, 2021 14:31:18 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

I actually think Carr would thrive here. Kirk is better but Carr is a little different plus when you add in his value might be like 5m less than even a restructured Kirk and add in your getting a return on Kirk and don't have to draft some unknown QB. I'm in... Where do I sign...

Ehh ill pass. Carr has had a great Oline his whole career and hasnt accomplished anything. His price isnt going to be much cheaper than Kirk if anything at all. Im sure another team will give him a chance if the Raiders dont kinda like a Sam Darnold. Why would we want to continue on this path of trying to sign a free agent QB that hasnt worked besides a HOFer in Favre. Best way to do it is a QB on a rookie deal, and building a team.

This narrative that Carr has always had a great O-Line is false. Just more generic media BS that gets fed to us by Brian Griese level announcers. Same as the narrative that Cousins had a better O-Line in Washington.

There were a few seasons where Carr had a really good Line. That wasn't always healthy and had garbage for depth. And some pretty 'meh' weapons. That Line has been declining for 2 years now.

And the Lines Cousins was behind in Washington were really good...and didn't come close to playing a full season together. Just constantly banged up.

It's ironic, really. Minnesota has a bad Line with actually decent depth that is always healthy (except for the new kid at LT). I think Udoh is a pretty decent backup Guard. He'll get a penalty or two, which all backups get. But he isn't going to get your QB killed. Hill is OK in spurts but appears to be regressing. Brandel looks OK. Mason is a quality backup C/G.

The problem is the Center and Right Guard. If Davis doesn't pan out that's another need along with half the Defense.

andhesloose28
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 7:40:37 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 22, 2021 7:40:37 GMT -6

Dec 21, 2021 19:20:22 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Dec 21, 2021 15:22:52 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Ehh ill pass. Carr has had a great Oline his whole career and hasnt accomplished anything. His price isnt going to be much cheaper than Kirk if anything at all. Im sure another team will give him a chance if the Raiders dont kinda like a Sam Darnold. Why would we want to continue on this path of trying to sign a free agent QB that hasnt worked besides a HOFer in Favre. Best way to do it is a QB on a rookie deal, and building a team.

This narrative that Carr has always had a great O-Line is false. Just more generic media BS that gets fed to us by Brian Griese level announcers. Same as the narrative that Cousins had a better O-Line in Washington.

There were a few seasons where Carr had a really good Line. That wasn't always healthy and had garbage for depth. And some pretty 'meh' weapons. That Line has been declining for 2 years now.

And the Lines Cousins was behind in Washington were really good...and didn't come close to playing a full season together. Just constantly banged up.

It's ironic, really. Minnesota has a bad Line with actually decent depth that is always healthy (except for the new kid at LT). I think Udoh is a pretty decent backup Guard. He'll get a penalty or two, which all backups get. But he isn't going to get your QB killed. Hill is OK in spurts but appears to be regressing. Brandel looks OK. Mason is a quality backup C/G.

The problem is the Center and Right Guard. If Davis doesn't pan out that's another need along with half the Defense.

Still im willing to bet its graded out better than the Vikings in Kirks time..Regardless my point still stands whats the value of going from Kirk to Carr?

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6 via Tapatalk andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by pinfante79 on Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 7:40:37 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 21, 2021 19:20:22 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

This narrative that Carr has always had a great O-Line is false. Just more generic media BS that gets fed to us by Brian Griese level announcers. Same as the narrative that Cousins had a better O-Line in Washington.

There were a few seasons where Carr had a really good Line. That wasn't always healthy and had garbage for depth. And some pretty 'meh' weapons. That Line has been declining for 2 years now.

And the Lines Cousins was behind in Washington were really good...and didn't come close to playing a full season together. Just constantly banged up.

It's ironic, really. Minnesota has a bad Line with actually decent depth that is always healthy (except for the new kid at LT). I think Udoh is a pretty decent backup Guard. He'll get a penalty or two, which all backups get. But he isn't going to get your QB killed. Hill is OK in spurts but appears to be regressing. Brandel looks OK. Mason is a quality backup C/G.

The problem is the Center and Right Guard. If Davis doesn't pan out that's another need along with half the Defense.

Still im willing to bet its graded out better than the Vikings in Kirks time..Regardless my point still stands whats the value of going from Kirk to Carr?

The value is only there if the raiders cut ties with Carr and you can just sign him millions less than you can extend Kirk and trade Kirk at the same time. So you have similar quarterback play, granted Kirk is better than Derek Carr, but you save money against the cap and get to reinvest the return you get from trading Kirk.

It's a long shot. but in that scenario it makes sense...

But when you have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook, You don't really need Tom Brady... Granted it would be nice but it's not required to be a top flight offense....

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PurpleFloyd
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 8:35:45 GMT -6 via mobile comet52 likes this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 8:35:45 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 7:40:37 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 21, 2021 19:20:22 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

This narrative that Carr has always had a great O-Line is false. Just more generic media BS that gets fed to us by Brian Griese level announcers. Same as the narrative that Cousins had a better O-Line in Washington.

There were a few seasons where Carr had a really good Line. That wasn't always healthy and had garbage for depth. And some pretty 'meh' weapons. That Line has been declining for 2 years now.

And the Lines Cousins was behind in Washington were really good...and didn't come close to playing a full season together. Just constantly banged up.

It's ironic, really. Minnesota has a bad Line with actually decent depth that is always healthy (except for the new kid at LT). I think Udoh is a pretty decent backup Guard. He'll get a penalty or two, which all backups get. But he isn't going to get your QB killed. Hill is OK in spurts but appears to be regressing. Brandel looks OK. Mason is a quality backup C/G.

The problem is the Center and Right Guard. If Davis doesn't pan out that's another need along with half the Defense.

Still im willing to bet its graded out better than the Vikings in Kirks time..Regardless my point still stands whats the value of going from Kirk to Carr?

None. No value at all.

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 13:04:27 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by TAFKASP on Dec 22, 2021 13:04:27 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 22, 2021 7:40:37 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Still im willing to bet its graded out better than the Vikings in Kirks time..Regardless my point still stands whats the value of going from Kirk to Carr?

The value is only there if the raiders cut ties with Carr and you can just sign him millions less than you can extend Kirk and trade Kirk at the same time. So you have similar quarterback play, granted Kirk is better than Derek Carr, but you save money against the cap and get to reinvest the return you get from trading Kirk.

It's a long shot. but in that scenario it makes sense...

But when you have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook, You don't really need Tom Brady... Granted it would be nice but it's not required to be a top flight offense....

As we've seen many times, it's one thing to be a top offense in the regular season, it's another thing entirely to be one in the playoffs. Put the best version of Kirk on those Patriots teams and you'd be lucky to win a single Super Bowl.

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andhesloose28
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 13:22:40 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 22, 2021 13:22:40 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 13:04:27 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

The value is only there if the raiders cut ties with Carr and you can just sign him millions less than you can extend Kirk and trade Kirk at the same time. So you have similar quarterback play, granted Kirk is better than Derek Carr, but you save money against the cap and get to reinvest the return you get from trading Kirk.

It's a long shot. but in that scenario it makes sense...

But when you have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook, You don't really need Tom Brady... Granted it would be nice but it's not required to be a top flight offense....

As we've seen many times, it's one thing to be a top offense in the regular season, it's another thing entirely to be one in the playoffs. Put the best version of Kirk on those Patriots teams and you'd be lucky to win a single Super Bowl.

Well to be fair im not trying to compare Kirk to Brady they are two different gamers but brady didnt win any superbowls because of their offense lol maybe you can say the falcons one but still the defense had to make turnovers and stops to do the comeback as well. The one shootout game he got into vs Philly he lost and Nick Foles put up 40+ on them (just like us but @philly) Brady is an all time great but im not sure there is a super bowl he won by himself besides Falcons ill give him but that is still an all time choke more than anything. You put pressure on brady he folds just like any other QB in the league. Rewatch Denver AFC ship. I may come off as a brady hater but ive gained a lot of respect for him since he did win last year on a new team even though they are stacked. Idk what he did to deserve all this success but he is a very lucky individual as well.

andhesloose28
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 13:25:18 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 22, 2021 13:25:18 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 22, 2021 7:40:37 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Still im willing to bet its graded out better than the Vikings in Kirks time..Regardless my point still stands whats the value of going from Kirk to Carr?

The value is only there if the raiders cut ties with Carr and you can just sign him millions less than you can extend Kirk and trade Kirk at the same time. So you have similar quarterback play, granted Kirk is better than Derek Carr, but you save money against the cap and get to reinvest the return you get from trading Kirk.

It's a long shot. but in that scenario it makes sense...

But when you have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook, You don't really need Tom Brady... Granted it would be nice but it's not required to be a top flight offense....

Im actually starting to come to terms with what your saying, even though I dont know how much cheaper Carr would be. Obv Im not expecting Kirk to play next year at 45 million a year. I get its not a bad idea to have a quality QB play with this offense while they are still in their prime but this just would feel like another move to keep hanging on and doubling down.

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 16:03:17 GMT -6 via mobile suncoastvike likes this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 16:03:17 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 13:25:18 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

The value is only there if the raiders cut ties with Carr and you can just sign him millions less than you can extend Kirk and trade Kirk at the same time. So you have similar quarterback play, granted Kirk is better than Derek Carr, but you save money against the cap and get to reinvest the return you get from trading Kirk.

It's a long shot. but in that scenario it makes sense...

But when you have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook, You don't really need Tom Brady... Granted it would be nice but it's not required to be a top flight offense....

Im actually starting to come to terms with what your saying, even though I dont know how much cheaper Carr would be. Obv Im not expecting Kirk to play next year at 45 million a year. I get its not a bad idea to have a quality QB play with this offense while they are still in their prime but this just would feel like another move to keep hanging on and doubling down.

I think the 45 million question is key. There are a bunch of contracts out there and after the season there will be several more that are going to push probably 25-30% of QBs into the 40+ million range. That’s a huge escalation in a relatively short period where we went from basically Kirk and maybe one other in 2018 at even 30 million and now 4 years later all of those will be 50% higher.

It doesn’t seem sustainable and we may be entering a time where the league needs to do a reset like they did some years back with rookie contracts. Or they may need to adjust the salary cap.

I agree it’s a crazy amount of money to pay. And that it’s not sustainable.

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 22, 2021 16:21:24 GMT -6 via Tapatalk PurpleFloyd likes this

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Post by pinfante79 on Dec 22, 2021 16:21:24 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 13:25:18 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 22, 2021 8:01:03 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

The value is only there if the raiders cut ties with Carr and you can just sign him millions less than you can extend Kirk and trade Kirk at the same time. So you have similar quarterback play, granted Kirk is better than Derek Carr, but you save money against the cap and get to reinvest the return you get from trading Kirk.

It's a long shot. but in that scenario it makes sense...

But when you have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook, You don't really need Tom Brady... Granted it would be nice but it's not required to be a top flight offense....

Im actually starting to come to terms with what your saying, even though I dont know how much cheaper Carr would be. Obv Im not expecting Kirk to play next year at 45 million a year. I get its not a bad idea to have a quality QB play with this offense while they are still in their prime but this just would feel like another move to keep hanging on and doubling down.

Fair. But if you could improve the defense that's a much easier path to being a really good team... Otherwise you need to draft a quarterback, He needs to pan out, And you still need to fix the defense.... AND replace Dalvin and Thielen and Harrison Smith and Eric Kendricks...

I think for right now take the path of least resistance.

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suncoastvike
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 23, 2021 5:21:38 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Dec 23, 2021 5:21:38 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 16:21:24 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 22, 2021 13:25:18 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Im actually starting to come to terms with what your saying, even though I dont know how much cheaper Carr would be. Obv Im not expecting Kirk to play next year at 45 million a year. I get its not a bad idea to have a quality QB play with this offense while they are still in their prime but this just would feel like another move to keep hanging on and doubling down.

Fair. But if you could improve the defense that's a much easier path to being a really good team... Otherwise you need to draft a quarterback, He needs to pan out, And you still need to fix the defense.... AND replace Dalvin and Thielen and Harrison Smith and Eric Kendricks...

I think for right now take the path of least resistance.

So you seem solidly in the retool mind. Path of least resistance sounds good. If it works.
I think honestly the owners are probably there as well. I've seen it work in my Viking experience. Denny Green taking over for Jerry Burns and getting 11 wins out of a team that finished 6-10 and 8-8 the previous two years. Denny was solidly in the offensive minded camp yet won that 1st year with the defense left over from the previous regime. That was a lateral move Jerry old school OC Denny new offensive mind.
My only worry is as I suspect the owners will go offensive coach this time. We have too many questions and FA on defense to know what next years unit will look like. The offense has the tools but our Oline that is finally showing some signs of life is handpicked for a system the new regime might not use. Squared pegs vs round holes. Much like the last 10 years of this Oline.
If the owners expect a new regime to win now they might be handicapping them. We got a good team just make them better. The new coach will be...yeah but it's not my team just my responsibility.
I think they need fresh eyes and new ideas. Probably alot of new pieces. There are many questions, none more important then the $45 million one. Even Denny made some moves trades and cuts that made me think we were destin for a ugly rebuild. None less important to him then a new starting QB. I was very pleasantly surprised with 11 wins. Will these owner or if Rick is still heavily involved maybe let us take two steps back to go much further forward if that what's necessary?

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 23, 2021 10:46:26 GMT -6 via Tapatalk wivikesfan likes this

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Post by pinfante79 on Dec 23, 2021 10:46:26 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2021 5:21:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Dec 22, 2021 16:21:24 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Fair. But if you could improve the defense that's a much easier path to being a really good team... Otherwise you need to draft a quarterback, He needs to pan out, And you still need to fix the defense.... AND replace Dalvin and Thielen and Harrison Smith and Eric Kendricks...

I think for right now take the path of least resistance.

So you seem solidly in the retool mind. Path of least resistance sounds good. If it works.
I think honestly the owners are probably there as well. I've seen it work in my Viking experience. Denny Green taking over for Jerry Burns and getting 11 wins out of a team that finished 6-10 and 8-8 the previous two years. Denny was solidly in the offensive minded camp yet won that 1st year with the defense left over from the previous regime. That was a lateral move Jerry old school OC Denny new offensive mind.
My only worry is as I suspect the owners will go offensive coach this time. We have too many questions and FA on defense to know what next years unit will look like. The offense has the tools but our Oline that is finally showing some signs of life is handpicked for a system the new regime might not use. Squared pegs vs round holes. Much like the last 10 years of this Oline.
If the owners expect a new regime to win now they might be handicapping them. We got a good team just make them better. The new coach will be...yeah but it's not my team just my responsibility.
I think they need fresh eyes and new ideas. Probably alot of new pieces. There are many questions, none more important then the $45 million one. Even Denny made some moves trades and cuts that made me think we were destin for a ugly rebuild. None less important to him then a new starting QB. I was very pleasantly surprised with 11 wins. Will these owner or if Rick is still heavily involved maybe let us take two steps back to go much further forward if that what's necessary?

Our o line is 3/5 complete, and it was hell to get to that point. I'm sure this plenty of offensive minded coaches who would keep the same direction and I think the challenge, maybe not challenge, but as you don't hire the square peg to put in a round hole. We should be able to get the best coach on our terms that fit our players, There will be plenty of coaches available. What we have to offer is the most talented roster of the job openings, The nicest facilities, A great fan base, One of if not the best stadiums in the league. And that coach doesn't have to come in to a three-win team and start from the bottom up. I think a lot of coaches would look at that as a positive and if somebody has a completely different authentic philosophy maybe you don't even interview that guy. We offer a pretty good situation to come enter. Remember, A lot of the other openings are going to be disasters of franchises. Becoming the coach of the Vikings, of these Vikings, At this time, Is a pretty good gig.

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suncoastvike
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 23, 2021 11:05:52 GMT -6 TAFKASP and pinfante79 like this

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Post by suncoastvike on Dec 23, 2021 11:05:52 GMT -6

Dec 23, 2021 10:46:26 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 23, 2021 5:21:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

So you seem solidly in the retool mind. Path of least resistance sounds good. If it works.
I think honestly the owners are probably there as well. I've seen it work in my Viking experience. Denny Green taking over for Jerry Burns and getting 11 wins out of a team that finished 6-10 and 8-8 the previous two years. Denny was solidly in the offensive minded camp yet won that 1st year with the defense left over from the previous regime. That was a lateral move Jerry old school OC Denny new offensive mind.
My only worry is as I suspect the owners will go offensive coach this time. We have too many questions and FA on defense to know what next years unit will look like. The offense has the tools but our Oline that is finally showing some signs of life is handpicked for a system the new regime might not use. Squared pegs vs round holes. Much like the last 10 years of this Oline.
If the owners expect a new regime to win now they might be handicapping them. We got a good team just make them better. The new coach will be...yeah but it's not my team just my responsibility.
I think they need fresh eyes and new ideas. Probably alot of new pieces. There are many questions, none more important then the $45 million one. Even Denny made some moves trades and cuts that made me think we were destin for a ugly rebuild. None less important to him then a new starting QB. I was very pleasantly surprised with 11 wins. Will these owner or if Rick is still heavily involved maybe let us take two steps back to go much further forward if that what's necessary?

Our o line is 3/5 complete, and it was hell to get to that point. I'm sure this plenty of offensive minded coaches who would keep the same direction and I think the challenge, maybe not challenge, but as you don't hire the square peg to put in a round hole. We should be able to get the best coach on our terms that fit our players, There will be plenty of coaches available. What we have to offer is the most talented roster of the job openings, The nicest facilities, A great fan base, One of if not the best stadiums in the league. And that coach doesn't have to come in to a three-win team and start from the bottom up. I think a lot of coaches would look at that as a positive and if somebody has a completely different authentic philosophy maybe you don't even interview that guy. We offer a pretty good situation to come enter. Remember, A lot of the other openings are going to be disasters of franchises. Becoming the coach of the Vikings, of these Vikings, At this time, Is a pretty good gig.

I agree with everything but hiring a coach based on his fit to these players. Hire the best coach based on ability then let him decide the players abilities within his system. I'm not sure the other way around is any better then just keeping Zimmer.

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 26, 2021 20:57:42 GMT -6 via mobile Jor-El likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Dec 26, 2021 20:57:42 GMT -6

Was listening to KFAN earlier (after the game) and they were discussing how little the draft class has contributed this season, and that's on Spielman. Basically, there were too many project picks for a team in win-now mode. Basically, we needed more from the draft class, especially those 3rd and 4th-rounders, and they're nowhere to be found. I've said this before, but the "draft for the future" makes it seem like Spielman is safe, at least in some capacity (if you believe the promotion rumors). The guys were arguing that it put Zimmer in a tough spot. I think it's hard to expect a ton from a draft class, but I get where they are coming from. Before Darrisaw and Nwangwu got out there, the snaps for rookies were extremely low.

Last Edit: Dec 26, 2021 20:58:28 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 26, 2021 21:58:18 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Dec 26, 2021 21:58:18 GMT -6

Dec 26, 2021 20:57:42 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Was listening to KFAN earlier (after the game) and they were discussing how little the draft class has contributed this season, and that's on Spielman. Basically, there were too many project picks for a team in win-now mode. Basically, we needed more from the draft class, especially those 3rd and 4th-rounders, and they're nowhere to be found. I've said this before, but the "draft for the future" makes it seem like Spielman is safe, at least in some capacity (if you believe the promotion rumors). The guys were arguing that it put Zimmer in a tough spot. I think it's hard to expect a ton from a draft class, but I get where they are coming from. Before Darrisaw and Nwangwu got out there, the snaps for rookies were extremely low.

Interesting. I think Rick thought the Offense was set and Darrisaw was going to be a day one starter. He doing good now. The Mond pick was obviously one for the future and Chazz Surratt was way to raw for that high. We basically threw the 3rd round away twice for 2021 anyhow. I think he did reach too much thinking we were more set on defense with the FA's we signed and Hunter and Pierce returning. I really doubt he thought we'd need much from the rookie class this year so out thunk himself with guys he thought had up side for next year. I don't know if that was because he knew he was safe or just underestimated our immediate needs.

Last Edit: Dec 26, 2021 21:59:22 GMT -6 by suncoastvike

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Dec 27, 2021 9:26:31 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by hoople on Dec 27, 2021 9:26:31 GMT -6

Nov 14, 2021 12:49:54 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

He's definitely worth something... I highly doubt he gets what Stafford netted or anything like that, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he went for a 1st or a couple seconds in a deal. And honestly, I think it's time to trade him. Let Mond have the reigns for a season after red shirting... If it's a disaster, you're picking high in 2023 and can get a QB.