Zim suspect against winning teams

whoskmoon
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jun 30, 2021 14:37:18 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jun 30, 2021 14:37:18 GMT -6

Jun 30, 2021 13:11:15 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jun 30, 2021 12:19:29 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Ooph, are you really equating the impact a DT or CB has on W-Ls with the impact of a QB?

I do think there are differences in the level of impact at different positions...but YOU are equating the impact of the QB with the impact of the Head Coach!! That is why I (sarcastically) raised the idea that all the players might bring their own past W-L records into the mix.

The Head Coach is supposed to forge his players into a unit that takes the best of their abilities to create a stronger unit. Are you saying that Zimmer lets Cousins push aside all his own (Zimmer's) positive traits for the team as a whole and flush them down the toilet? Wow, Cousins has amazing power, considering he does not hire assistant coaches, create a game plan, call plays, help scout and draft players, or impact the defensive unit in any formal way - all of which Zimmer can do.

This is getting a bit off topic and I don't want to come off as someone who is defending Zimmer as a HC who can help us win the SB. He hasn't done enough for me to defend him on that.

Sticking to what he did against winning teams, if a HC's QB is playing poorly he will lose most games against winning teams, correct? This is true from Billy B to Andy Reed. Against lesser teams you can eek out a win with the rest of the team playing well, but beating a really good team you need your QB to step up. Scoring points, a requisite to winning, is really hard if your QB is struggling.

Now, if every game was like the LAR game in 2018, sure that would be a pattern where the QB was asked to do too much and that would be on the HC. Is that the norm though?

whoskmoon
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jun 30, 2021 14:48:07 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jun 30, 2021 14:48:07 GMT -6

Jun 30, 2021 11:23:13 GMT -6 vikingbill said:

Jun 30, 2021 9:48:19 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I believe he is undefeated when leading going into the 4th and is 24-6 with any lead going into the 3rd. He has lost 1 game with a two score lead going into the 3rd. He seems to do pretty okay holding onto leads to me.

I believe we were up in the Mahome less KC game in the 4th qtr and Zim would run the ball on 1st and 2nd down and then try to throw on 3rd and 9 and Cousins would get swarmed. Resulted in several 3 & outs. Might have happened in the Dallas game as well. We also choked against Tenn but that one was back and forth.

There wasn't a drive where the team ran on 1st and 2nd down and went 3 and out in the 4th against KC, a team they were down against going into the 4th. There was one 3 and out in the 4th in that game and on that particular drive you might have a point. Pass on 1st, followed by a run for -3 and then another run on 3rd and 13 because the QB was not throwing the ball well that game and they didn't trust him.

Against Dallas, the Vikings passed on every 2nd and 3rd down in the 4th. .

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Zim suspect against winning teams Jun 30, 2021 19:48:16 GMT -6 suncoastvike likes this

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Post by comet52 on Jun 30, 2021 19:48:16 GMT -6

Jun 30, 2021 3:13:55 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Jun 30, 2021 1:57:20 GMT -6 comet52 said:

They picked the wrong coach. This was clear by 2016 (to me anyway). They've been doubling down on the guy ever since and have nothing to show for it.

2016 was the year I stopped fully believing. Even 2017 felt more like just plain chemistry between Case, Adam and Diggs. All used masterfully by Pat. Zimmer just horseshoe'd it. 2016 sure showed a side to him I didn't like.
That cold Green Bay night in 2015 that we ripped the division from them seems farther away then that.

Yeah, I really thought we were on a good trajectory when they won that game in GB. But Blair Walsh took care of whatever momentum they had and Zimmer imploded the following year. Game over. Then the gods gifted him with Case's horseshoe and all he could do was act like having a lucky qb and some winning team mojo was the equivalent of eating a sh*t sandwich. Douchebag.

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wxman91
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jun 30, 2021 20:04:10 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown and Jor-El like this

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Post by wxman91 on Jun 30, 2021 20:04:10 GMT -6

I can’t get past the obvious - there has been a fatal flaw on this team since Zimmer took over, and it has little to do with him. Rick has not given him a competent OL. The one year that there was an intersection of average T play (Reiff/Remmers) and average G play (Easton/Berger) we won 13 games and went to the NFCCG. Otherwise, we are trotting out Kalil/Clemmings or Samia/Dozier, and we get rolled by good defenses. I’m not saying that teams have to have a good OL to win, I’m just saying with 90% of the QBs in this league you aren’t going to be successful with an awful OL.

vikingbill
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jun 30, 2021 20:19:21 GMT -6

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Post by vikingbill on Jun 30, 2021 20:19:21 GMT -6

Jun 30, 2021 20:04:10 GMT -6 wxman91 said:

I can’t get past the obvious - there has been a fatal flaw on this team since Zimmer took over, and it has little to do with him. Rick has not given him a competent OL. The one year that there was an intersection of average T play (Reiff/Remmers) and average G play (Easton/Berger) we won 13 games and went to the NFCCG. Otherwise, we are trotting out Kalil/Clemmings or Samia/Dozier, and we get rolled by good defenses. I’m not saying that teams have to have a good OL to win, I’m just saying with 90% of the QBs in this league you aren’t going to be successful with an awful OL.

Can't argue with that. Spielman is an idiot. He can't pack his bags fast enough as far as I'm concerned. Criminal neglect on the oline for a decade.

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Zim suspect against winning teams Jun 30, 2021 20:29:18 GMT -6 OdinHammer likes this

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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 20:29:18 GMT -6

Jun 30, 2021 20:04:10 GMT -6 wxman91 said:

I can’t get past the obvious - there has been a fatal flaw on this team since Zimmer took over, and it has little to do with him. Rick has not given him a competent OL. The one year that there was an intersection of average T play (Reiff/Remmers) and average G play (Easton/Berger) we won 13 games and went to the NFCCG. Otherwise, we are trotting out Kalil/Clemmings or Samia/Dozier, and we get rolled by good defenses. I’m not saying that teams have to have a good OL to win, I’m just saying with 90% of the QBs in this league you aren’t going to be successful with an awful OL.

Man get off Rick that is my boy. LOL! Kidding(I do like him though) he has his warts. but I think Rick does a solid job with a lot of things. He is not perfect though, but I like ole Rick. I understand the criticism but Rick cool with me that's my guy.

I tried not to like him, but can't help it. I just don't think he is a bad GM overall. I think he does a lot of things well, a few bad, but he not the coach. All he can do is give them the guys they want then it is out of his hands.

Even Zim was a good hire. The problem is not Zim can't coach defense we know he can. The problem is the stubborn approach and the eff the offense in favor of the defense. Treat all the same, it's like my kids, if I favor one of my children over the others I am in the wrong. Same theme with this. Zim has to love all aspects of the team equally like his kids as a HC. Show equal love it's his duty and job description. I said that time after time that is my issue with him and if it don't change will be his downfall.

Last Edit: Jun 30, 2021 20:48:27 GMT -6 by Deleted

macvikings
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 1, 2021 8:28:08 GMT -6 via mobile whuisman, suncoastvike, and 1 more like this

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Post by macvikings on Jul 1, 2021 8:28:08 GMT -6

What is this, year eight? And none of us have faith in this coach when it comes to big game readiness or year-by-year consistency??

What are we doing here 😫😫😫

vikingpwr
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 1, 2021 18:16:43 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Jul 1, 2021 18:16:43 GMT -6

Jun 30, 2021 20:04:10 GMT -6 wxman91 said:

The one year that there was an intersection of average T play (Reiff/Remmers) and average G play (Easton/Berger) we won 13 games and went to the NFCCG.

Someone who gets it. That year 2017 was the year we drafted Pat Elflein. The other 4 starters on that line IMO helped him (Elflein)out a lot and masked his weaknesses.

Despite drafting a decent T in Brian O'Neil the 2018 season was a complete disaster for our OL when we lost our OL/running coordinator Tony Sparano and DeFilippo was the OC. Remmers and Compton were our guards. For all those who believe it doesn't matter who your guards are for a center to play well....ala Bradbury....think again. Elflein digressed in his second year with those 2 and has been a lost cause ever since. I find it funny how I wanted Chase Rouiller in that draft....That was one of Ricky's worst draft IMO. Oh well, we got Dalvin Cook in that 2017 draft and he's really good.

(2019) Garrett Bradbury was drafted and so far is kinda one dimensional. He can run block like nobody's business but needs to figure out how to pass block better. Like Elflein before him Bradbury has had weak guards playing alongside him.

(2020) Ezra Cleveland was drafted and looks to be a decent guard so far even though all the experts want him playing tackle.

(2021) Darrisaw and Davis are the latest O-linemen we've added and one or both of them should see the field this season.

All in all not bad. Ricky drafted a nice nucleus and we might see average or better in the near future.

Last Edit: Jul 1, 2021 18:24:29 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

suncoastvike
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 1, 2021 18:43:48 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Jul 1, 2021 18:43:48 GMT -6

Jul 1, 2021 8:28:08 GMT -6 macvikings said:

What is this, year eight? And none of us have faith in this coach when it comes to big game readiness or year-by-year consistency??

What are we doing here 😫😫😫

Stating the obvious. You summed it up in one sentence quite well. Though none have faith is not quite accurate or we wouldn't have much to talk about here. I with you though. This is the year. Or the 7 year itch will become the 8 year open wound.

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whoskmoon
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 1, 2021 19:56:36 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 1, 2021 19:56:36 GMT -6

I put together some numbers and one thing is clear, the offense just plain sucks against winning teams

Year	Opponent	Non GT Points for Offense	Points against Defense	Points for going into 4th	Points against going into the 4th	Point Diferential From Season Average For	Point Diferential From Season Average Against
2018	Rams	31	38	28	38	8.5	-16.7
2018	Chicago	13	17	6	14	-9.5	7.3
2018	Saints	13	23	13	23	-9.5	-1.7
2018	Patriots	10	24	10	17	-12.5	4.3
2018	Seattle	0	14	0	6	-22.5	15.3
2018	Chicago	10	24	10	13	-12.5	8.3
2019	GB	16	21	16	21	-9.4	-2.1
2019	KC	23	26	16	20	-2.4	-1.1
2019	Seattle	23	37	17	27	-2.4	-8.1
2019	GB	10	23	10	17	-15.4	1.9
2020	GB	20	41	10	29	-6.9	0.7
2020	Indy	3	26	3	16	-23.9	13.7
2020	TN	30	31	25	24	3.1	5.7
2020	Seattle	26	27	19	21	-0.9	8.7
2020	Saints	27	52	27	38	0.1	-8.3
2020	Tampa	14	26	14	23	-12.9	6.7
		16.81	28.13	14.00	21.69	-8.06	2.16



Average 2018		12.83	23.33	11.17	18.50	-9.67	2.80
Average 2019		18.00	26.75	14.75	21.25	-7.40	-2.35
Average 2020		20.00	33.83	16.33	25.17	-6.90	4.53

Defensively, the team has played better than their average on the season 10 of 16 games. Offensively that has only happened 3 times.

Less than 17 points per game when you exclude garbage time scores isn't going to win you many games against bad teams, let alone teams with winning records.

Deleted Ghosted Member Posts: 0 Likes:	Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 3, 2021 7:23:07 GMT -6 suncoastvike likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2021 7:23:07 GMT -6 Jul 1, 2021 19:56:36 GMT -6 whoskmoon said: I put together some numbers and one thing is clear, the offense just plain sucks against winning teams And who's fault is that?

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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 3, 2021 13:30:27 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Jul 3, 2021 13:30:27 GMT -6

Jul 3, 2021 7:23:07 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Jul 1, 2021 19:56:36 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I put together some numbers and one thing is clear, the offense just plain sucks against winning teams

And who's fault is that?

Could it be his philosophy of simply lining up and playing fundamentally sound football only works against teams that are over matched talent wise? Could it fail against other fundamentally sound good teams that are willing to take it at you. Keeping weak teams on their heels is his strong suit. Nobody made up this record. Playing good teams might just require you to come out of your comfort zone and attack. Waiting for your opening will only put you behind and then he usually has no answer for how to overcome these good teams playing good. Regardless of who's side of the ball you wish to blame. As you said ain't both sides really his responsibility?

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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 3, 2021 19:12:30 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 1 more like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 3, 2021 19:12:30 GMT -6

Jul 3, 2021 13:30:27 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Jul 3, 2021 7:23:07 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

And who's fault is that?

Could it be his philosophy of simply lining up and playing fundamentally sound football only works against teams that are over matched talent wise? Could it fail against other fundamentally sound good teams that are willing to take it at you. Keeping weak teams on their heels is his strong suit. Nobody made up this record. Playing good teams might just require you to come out of your comfort zone and attack. Waiting for your opening will only put you behind and then he usually has no answer for how to overcome these good teams playing good. Regardless of who's side of the ball you wish to blame. As you said ain't both sides really his responsibility?

Based on the video in the OP, you can knock Zimmer for both having nothing to do with the offense while also holding it back by being to controlling of it. He deserves all of the blame for the lack of success on offense because he is holding it back with his conservative mindset, but none of the credit for getting the best seasons out of EVERY QB he has ever coached.

Playing good fundamentals is the mantra of every HC. I assume you mean he doesn't like any sort of complex offense that might get the team more success and wants to just keep things simple. He somehow got SB winning Gary Kubiak to dumb down his offense, and held it back despite the offense being #1 in big plays in 2020. He held back the offense so much in 2017 and 2019 that his OC's got HCing jobs because of those seasons. He forced Defillipo to throw the ball too much with one of the best RBs in football on the team, and then fired him for not utilizing the best player on the offense. Pretty lousy track record.

The offense averaged fewer than 17 points per game during meaningful playtime since 2018 against winning teams in losses. That is indeed bad and the HC does deserve blame for it. He is the one who makes the final decisions on who plays, and he is the one who okays the game plan from his OC.

It is also right in line with what the current QB did before he got to MN when playing behind good Olines, with a top 10 receiving corps and with an offensive minded HC.

You want a dynamic offense that can beat the best. I agree, that is what we need. Have the Vikings had the Oline and QB capable of that over the past 7 seasons? If the answer to that is no, it doesn't mean Zimmer could coach that type of offense, but it does mean the GM and the current QB are just as much or more to blame for this record against winning teams as the HC.

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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 4, 2021 17:10:41 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by comet52 on Jul 4, 2021 17:10:41 GMT -6

Jul 3, 2021 19:12:30 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jul 3, 2021 13:30:27 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Could it be his philosophy of simply lining up and playing fundamentally sound football only works against teams that are over matched talent wise? Could it fail against other fundamentally sound good teams that are willing to take it at you. Keeping weak teams on their heels is his strong suit. Nobody made up this record. Playing good teams might just require you to come out of your comfort zone and attack. Waiting for your opening will only put you behind and then he usually has no answer for how to overcome these good teams playing good. Regardless of who's side of the ball you wish to blame. As you said ain't both sides really his responsibility?

Based on the video in the OP, you can knock Zimmer for both having nothing to do with the offense while also holding it back by being to controlling of it. He deserves all of the blame for the lack of success on offense because he is holding it back with his conservative mindset, but none of the credit for getting the best seasons out of EVERY QB he has ever coached.

Playing good fundamentals is the mantra of every HC. I assume you mean he doesn't like any sort of complex offense that might get the team more success and wants to just keep things simple. He somehow got SB winning Gary Kubiak to dumb down his offense, and held it back despite the offense being #1 in big plays in 2020. He held back the offense so much in 2017 and 2019 that his OC's got HCing jobs because of those seasons. He forced Defillipo to throw the ball too much with one of the best RBs in football on the team, and then fired him for not utilizing the best player on the offense. Pretty lousy track record.

The offense averaged fewer than 17 points per game during meaningful playtime since 2018 against winning teams in losses. That is indeed bad and the HC does deserve blame for it. He is the one who makes the final decisions on who plays, and he is the one who okays the game plan from his OC.

It is also right in line with what the current QB did before he got to MN when playing behind good Olines, with a top 10 receiving corps and with an offensive minded HC.

You want a dynamic offense that can beat the best. I agree, that is what we need. Have the Vikings had the Oline and QB capable of that over the past 7 seasons? If the answer to that is no, it doesn't mean Zimmer could coach that type of offense, but it does mean the GM and the current QB are just as much or more to blame for this record against winning teams as the HC.

Well it's nice to read another novella on why nothing wrong with the Vikings is Zim's fault. Time for a contract extension, because how could you ever give up on such a successful guy like that?

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vikingpwr
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Zim suspect against winning teams Jul 4, 2021 21:16:09 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Jul 4, 2021 21:16:09 GMT -6

Jul 4, 2021 17:10:41 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Well it's nice to read another novella on why nothing wrong with the Vikings is Zim's fault. Time for a contract extension, because how could you ever give up on such a successful guy like that?

It's reassuring to know that fans like you make certain that the blame is spread evenly throughout the current Minnesota Viking organization?

We haven't won the Super Bowl since 2014 because...............

Zimmer sucks and is set in his ways and won't change his archaic D or allow his offensive coaches to coach.

Wilf sucks and just wants mediocrity. He doesn't care about winning.

Ricky sucks and is a clueless GM. His cap guru Brzezinki is just kicking the can down the road with all the big contracts.

Kirk sucks and he's overpaid.

Patterson and Zimmer Jr suck and are just yes men. They don't know what the F they are doing.

(roflmao)