Lock up O’Neill?

mikenessfan
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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 10:11:52 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mikenessfan on Jul 21, 2021 10:11:52 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 10:04:42 GMT -6 Drank said:

Jul 21, 2021 9:58:41 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Drank I understand what you are saying, however like that article states the market for RT’s is changing now. And as we know our front office and coaches have a really hard time figuring out who the right guys are to draft at oline and then develop them. So when our best olineman is possibly going on the move over $2 million difference a year, I am not letting that stop me from signing him. If our front office and coaching staff didn’t lag in the identification and development of oline then I would be more than willing to let him walk if I felt like he was going to be the kirk cousins contract of olineman, but unfortunately we don’t have the capability to do that. Maybe Ezra Cleveland is a guy who could slide to rt and be effective, but I’m not sure he could as we haven’t seen it in the nfl yet.

To be clear I like ONeill but he not on Ramczyk level. He not better than Hunter at his position neither . Why y'all like overpaying for ONeill, Kirk especially and Rudy when he got money. But gripe on elite talent like Cook and Hunter it makes zero sense to me🤷🏾‍♂️ ONeill wasn't no better than Reiff last year. Obviously I rather have ONeill but I want elite play for elite money. I am being reasonable too.

Hey man I get what your point is. You want to pay good money for elite players. I do too. I don’t t like over paying for players. I also agree cook and hunter are elite I don’t think anyone can dispute that. And I’m glad both guys will probably be here long term (I hope extension gets down soon for hunter). And I did not want to extend kirk. I thought he was a mistake big time extending him last time. I expressed that many times on MVN. Should have let that last contract run it’s course and we would have already been out of his deal by now and moved on. We just kicked the can down the road. But IMO sb’s have always been won in trenches on both sides. And qb play. That’s the ingredients. It still is. Saying that I think a couple million on an over pay for an above average rt and our best olineman who has a chance to get better as still young, I don’t have an issue with. Especially since our front office and coaching staff sucks in that department. I don’t trust they can find a legit replacement.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 10:12:49 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 10:12:49 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 10:05:31 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Jul 21, 2021 9:53:01 GMT -6 Drank said:

Actually Kirk Cousins is the problem. I would pay ONeill before him. Still it don't matter every guy has a price. A person can only expect to get what they are worth every thing else you get paid in life is just gravy.

Still no Pats all those years paid guys what they worth, when it got unreasonable they said no. If you give one guy 3 million more than the next guy and the next guy want past their worth and gets you in trouble. He worth about 15 based on Ramczyk deal.

To me the writing is on the wall that unless Kirk proves this year he can lead the team deep in the playoffs, I think he is won’t be extended and possibly be traded after this year with his last year left on his contract. I think the front office and coaching staff understand who he is and what his limits are. That’s why mond was drafted to develop this year and then when next offseason comes and we see what happened during this season if cousins played like he normally does our front office can go back feeling fine moving on from him. We’ll have a young qb who had a year to learn and has some franchise qb tools, and there is always the option to draft another qb in the upcoming draft to double
down on our bets. I’m sure cousins understands he needs to somewhat carry the team at points this season specically in the playoffs if he has any future with the team.

Yeah it's time to let Kirky go. If he don't carry us. I do appreciate ONeill being good. It shouldn't come down to him or Hunter. Kirky the real problem. Let Kirky bum ass go and keep ONeill and Hunter. Boy I hope Mond turn out it would do wonders for us. See and that's the problem with this stupid 45 million Kirky deal. It is putting us up against debating on two guys when we need both badly.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 10:13:05 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 21, 2021 10:13:05 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 9:44:49 GMT -6 Drank said:

Not true Hunter the only star DL they drafted. ONeill I like but he is not a star.

If you're desperate for a beer in the stadium, you pay it anyway...helluva lot of people do! Prices are determined by scarcity, and aren't good OL more scarce on this team than good DL?

Jul 21, 2021 9:44:49 GMT -6 Drank said:

Not true Hunter the only star DL they drafted. ONeill I like but he is not a star.

TBH I am trolling a bit regarding our defensive coaches. We hear people regularly proclaiming that Zimmer and Patterson are DL gurus, with talk like, "ohhh imagine how great prospect X will be with Patterson coaching him..."

IMO, Hunter had more to do with his own success than his coaches, and yes he is elite beyond any recent Viking defensive lineman. But Zimmer and staff are supposedly great defensive coaches, so doesn't that mean they can achieve results without elite resources?

And don't mark me as "anti-Hunter" or opposed to keeping him! I'm arguing devil's advocate here, in part because you proposed the idea Hunter and O'Neill's contracts might be one-or-the-other. There are a lot of weaker guys on this team we can sacrifice to pay both.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 10:15:19 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 10:15:19 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 10:11:52 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Jul 21, 2021 10:04:42 GMT -6 Drank said:

To be clear I like ONeill but he not on Ramczyk level. He not better than Hunter at his position neither . Why y'all like overpaying for ONeill, Kirk especially and Rudy when he got money. But gripe on elite talent like Cook and Hunter it makes zero sense to me🤷🏾‍♂️ ONeill wasn't no better than Reiff last year. Obviously I rather have ONeill but I want elite play for elite money. I am being reasonable too.

Hey man I get what your point is. You want to pay good money for elite players. I do too. I don’t t like over paying for players. I also agree cook and hunter are elite I don’t think anyone can dispute that. And I’m glad both guys will probably be here long term (I hope extension gets down soon for hunter). And I did not want to extend kirk. I thought he was a mistake big time extending him last time. I expressed that many times on MVN. Should have let that last contract run it’s course and we would have already been out of his deal by now and moved on. We just kicked the can down the road. But IMO sb’s have always been won in trenches on both sides. And qb play. That’s the ingredients. It still is. Saying that I think a couple million on an over pay for an above average rt and our best olineman who has a chance to get better as still young, I don’t have an issue with. Especially since our front office and coaching staff sucks in that department. I don’t trust they can find a legit replacement.

Kirk at the moment is one of my least favorite Vikings all time. He either need to do something when it Matters or get to stepping 😂I not trying to lose none of our real talent for Kirky.

mikenessfan
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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 10:22:38 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mikenessfan on Jul 21, 2021 10:22:38 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 10:15:19 GMT -6 Drank said:

Jul 21, 2021 10:11:52 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Hey man I get what your point is. You want to pay good money for elite players. I do too. I don’t t like over paying for players. I also agree cook and hunter are elite I don’t think anyone can dispute that. And I’m glad both guys will probably be here long term (I hope extension gets down soon for hunter). And I did not want to extend kirk. I thought he was a mistake big time extending him last time. I expressed that many times on MVN. Should have let that last contract run it’s course and we would have already been out of his deal by now and moved on. We just kicked the can down the road. But IMO sb’s have always been won in trenches on both sides. And qb play. That’s the ingredients. It still is. Saying that I think a couple million on an over pay for an above average rt and our best olineman who has a chance to get better as still young, I don’t have an issue with. Especially since our front office and coaching staff sucks in that department. I don’t trust they can find a legit replacement.

Kirk at the moment is one of my least favorite Vikings all time. He either need to do something when it Matters or get to stepping 😂I not trying to lose none of our real talent for Kirky.

Yes his contract is a problem and has been. It was a terrible extension and shouldn’t have happened. You can’t pay elite qb money for an above average qb. It’s just too much cap tied up to a guy who can’t lead the team. He is an effective qb to a point but not in leading and carrying the team at the times it matters most. I’ll be glad when we are out of that contract.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 10:22:40 GMT -6 mikenessfan and Jor-El like this

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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 10:22:40 GMT -6

Y'all convinced me to go ahead and stretch the pay for ONeill we do suck on the OL. We need to keep Hunter too and I worry if we can pay them both top dollar with Kirky. My real issue is Kirky his pay is the one pissing me off not ONeill. My venom really pointed at Kirky stat stuffing ass. We need both them on the trenches.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 11:02:13 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 21, 2021 11:02:13 GMT -6

Hey Drank, am I missing something re Hunter? He's already got a contract with us through 2023, and he'll receive $26M next year if nothing happens. Are you assuming they must restructure again to avoid that hit? They have eaten other contract "balloons" before, not least of which Mr. Cousins'...

Jul 21, 2021 10:22:40 GMT -6 Drank said:

Y'all convinced me to go ahead and stretch the pay for ONeill we do suck on the OL. We need to keep Hunter too and I worry if we can pay them both top dollar with Kirky. My real issue is Kirky his pay is the one pissing me off not ONeill. My venom really pointed at Kirky stat stuffing ass. We need both them on the trenches.

I really have the perspective that this team will have a turning point in 2022. They're loading Zimmer's defense with players on one-year deals, and IMO he's getting a final chance to contend this year. Even if he does produce a winner and hopefully playoff contender, a lot of players' contracts will be expiring (Smith, Barr, Richardson, Peterson, Woods, Breeland) or have outs (Pierce). So there are going to be more decisions than any recent offseason, and if they are not happy with Zimmer, they can part ways with the knowledge they gave him plenty of defensive ammo this year, and also with a chance to "clear the decks" for his successor.

But they need to keep the core young players that will be critical to rebuilding/reloading no matter who is coaching. IMO those are Hunter, Tomlinson, Kendricks, Dantzler, Cook, Jefferson, and O'Neill.

Oh, and...you're damn right about Cousins. I don't hate the player, but the contract, especially the cap hit for 2022, is causing the cap issues.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 11:20:56 GMT -6 Jor-El likes this

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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 11:20:56 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 11:02:13 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Hey Drank , am I missing something re Hunter? He's already got a contract with us through 2023, and he'll receive $26M next year if nothing happens. Are you assuming they must restructure again to avoid that hit? They have eaten other contract "balloons" before, not least of which Mr. Cousins'...

Jul 21, 2021 10:22:40 GMT -6 Drank said:

Y'all convinced me to go ahead and stretch the pay for ONeill we do suck on the OL. We need to keep Hunter too and I worry if we can pay them both top dollar with Kirky. My real issue is Kirky his pay is the one pissing me off not ONeill. My venom really pointed at Kirky stat stuffing ass. We need both them on the trenches.

I really have the perspective that this team will have a turning point in 2022. They're loading Zimmer's defense with players on one-year deals, and IMO he's getting a final chance to contend this year. Even if he does produce a winner and hopefully playoff contender, a lot of players' contracts will be expiring (Smith, Barr, Richardson, Peterson, Woods, Breeland) or have outs (Pierce). So there are going to be more decisions than any recent offseason, and if they are not happy with Zimmer, they can part ways with the knowledge they gave him plenty of defensive ammo this year, and also with a chance to "clear the decks" for his successor.

But they need to keep the core young players that will be critical to rebuilding/reloading no matter who is coaching. IMO those are Hunter, Tomlinson, Kendricks, Dantzler, Cook, Jefferson, and O'Neill.

Oh, and...you're damn right about Cousins. I don't hate the player, but the contract, especially the cap hit for 2022, is causing the cap issues.

He is set for this year. I just recall some complaining about the bonus he gets now next off season with the money they moved around. Even the media said he would either be cut ( bet not unless his neck takes his game) or get a new deal next off season. When I saw the money we would have to likely pay ONeill it worried me. I thought ONeill would get 10 to 12 million.

After thinking it through though we have no leverage because we suck at getting OL. Plus you made good points that we can take money cut others and it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. Hunter won't be happy if he balls and doesn't get a new deal. See I try to debate in good faith and with a open mind sometimes lol. No reason we can't keep both it shouldn't be one or the other we need both. Plus maybe we can rework or cut somebody else and keep both is the best solution. I think D Hunter is better but hopefully it doesn't come to one or the other.

That is to far down the line though we will cross that bridge when it's time. I hope we can keep the young core you listed. We have done good with the cap so I will keep my faith that it will all work out. There is enough stress coming up with this season for me to worry about stressors that far out lol

Good points on Zimmer, yes we did it his way this off season. His prints all over this off season. We did it his way so he either going to sink or swim. These moves in FA tell us this a make or break year for Zim. We gave him what he wanted done.

Last Edit: Jul 21, 2021 11:25:12 GMT -6 by Deleted

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 11:42:23 GMT -6 andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 11:42:23 GMT -6

A cool feature that I like about our current OL is.. O'Neill is the only one we have to pay right now. We won't have to worry about Darrisaw, Davis, or Cleveland if they turn out for 3 to 5 yrs. So if a few of those young guys turn out we have time for the cap to rise back up. So overall the OL has potential for cap savings for a bit with O'Neill the only one due for a pay day in the near future.

Last Edit: Jul 21, 2021 11:43:44 GMT -6 by Deleted

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 12:31:37 GMT -6 Jor-El likes this

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Post by Uncle on Jul 21, 2021 12:31:37 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 11:42:23 GMT -6 Drank said:

A cool feature that I like about our current OL is.. O'Neill is the only one we have to pay right now. We won't have to worry about Darrisaw, Davis, or Cleveland if they turn out for 3 to 5 yrs. So if a few of those young guys turn out we have time for the cap to rise back up. So overall the OL has potential for cap savings for a bit with O'Neill the only one due for a pay day in the near future.

If Bradbury somehow turns the corner and has a significantly better year in 2021 than his first 2 years, we'll have a decision to make in the 2022 offseason whether to pick up his 5th yr option for the 2023 season, and that 5th yr option is sometimes 3X as much salary as the final year of the rookie deal.

For example, OC Ryan Kelly was selected in the 1st Rd of the 2016 Draft by the Colts. The Colts decided in the 2019 offseason to pick-up his 5th yr option for the 2020 season, which was $10.35m, approx triple what his cap hit was for the final year on his rookie deal in 2019 was ($3.3m).

Assuming we sign O'Neill to an extension this offseason, he'll be the only $10m+ contract in 2021 and 2022. But starting in 2023, you could theoretically have O'Neill and Bradbury on $10m+ contracts, and then Ezra in 2024 and Darrisaw/Davis in 2025.

It's still a valid point though: for 2021 and 2022 seasons, the Vikings should have one of the youngest and "cheapest" OL's in the league. For reference, Spotrac currently has the Vikings as ranked 31st in OL spending at only $19.5m, and only approx 10% of the cap space goes to the OL (link).

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 12:43:46 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 21, 2021 12:43:46 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 11:20:56 GMT -6 Drank said:

There is enough stress coming up with this season for me to worry about stressors that far out lol

Buddy, I thought we were just digging for things to stress about anyway! Ha I know, we're speculating our butts off before TC even starts and have very little info, and in a month we'll know so much more we will probably laugh at what we were stressing this month.

Jul 21, 2021 11:42:23 GMT -6 Drank said:

A cool feature that I like about our current OL is.. O'Neill is the only one we have to pay right now. We won't have to worry about Darrisaw, Davis, or Cleveland if they turn out for 3 to 5 yrs.

Depends on how you feel about Bradbury. Next spring the Vikings need to decide if they will pick up his 5th-year option, and then he's about a year from getting a new deal. Of course...if he just sucks, we don't have to worry about paying him, we'll just worry about needing a new Center.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 12:49:38 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jul 21, 2021 12:49:38 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 12:31:37 GMT -6 Uncle said:

If Bradbury somehow turns the corner and has a significantly better year in 2021 than his first 2 years, we'll have a decision to make in the 2022 offseason whether to pick up his 5th yr option for the 2023 season, and that 5th yr option is sometimes 3X as much salary as the final year of the rookie deal.

We were thinking this simultaneously, but you provided more salary info. I would guess that even marginal improvement would get his 5th-year option picked up, but they would try to get an extension done before it kicks in.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 13:06:59 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 13:06:59 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 12:31:37 GMT -6 Uncle said:

Jul 21, 2021 11:42:23 GMT -6 Drank said:

A cool feature that I like about our current OL is.. O'Neill is the only one we have to pay right now. We won't have to worry about Darrisaw, Davis, or Cleveland if they turn out for 3 to 5 yrs. So if a few of those young guys turn out we have time for the cap to rise back up. So overall the OL has potential for cap savings for a bit with O'Neill the only one due for a pay day in the near future.

If Bradbury somehow turns the corner and has a significantly better year in 2021 than his first 2 years, we'll have a decision to make in the 2022 offseason whether to pick up his 5th yr option for the 2023 season, and that 5th yr option is sometimes 3X as much salary as the final year of the rookie deal.

For example, OC Ryan Kelly was selected in the 1st Rd of the 2016 Draft by the Colts. The Colts decided in the 2019 offseason to pick-up his 5th yr option for the 2020 season, which was $10.35m, approx triple what his cap hit was for the final year on his rookie deal in 2019 was ($3.3m).

Assuming we sign O'Neill to an extension this offseason, he'll be the only $10m+ contract in 2021 and 2022. But starting in 2023, you could theoretically have O'Neill and Bradbury on $10m+ contracts, and then Ezra in 2024 and Darrisaw/Davis in 2025.

It's still a valid point though: for 2021 and 2022 seasons, the Vikings should have one of the youngest and "cheapest" OL's in the league. For reference, Spotrac currently has the Vikings as ranked 31st in OL spending at only $19.5m, and only approx 10% of the cap space goes to the OL (link).

Yeah, Bradbury has to make a massive turn around. I didn't mention him because I have my doubts he will. With that low of a overall cap figure on the OL, I guess we may have to stretch and pay O'Neill more than I think we should. We trash at finding OL and right now he is clearly the best we got. I think him and Hunter are both anchors respectively on both lines we need both. I know one thing Bradbury can't get 10 million and if he doesn't pass protect better he won't be our starting center next year. Almost time to see how things shape out this season is very important SKOL!

I don't like overpaying but I am willing to make a exception and not be to mad about overpaying in this particular circumstance. We can't make a habit of doing this though, it's a cap killer if done regularly. We already doing it with Kirk too, I just want us to be careful and not fall in a hole that takes years to get out of.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 13:48:29 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jul 21, 2021 13:48:29 GMT -6

Jul 21, 2021 13:06:59 GMT -6 Drank said:

Jul 21, 2021 12:31:37 GMT -6 Uncle said:

If Bradbury somehow turns the corner and has a significantly better year in 2021 than his first 2 years, we'll have a decision to make in the 2022 offseason whether to pick up his 5th yr option for the 2023 season, and that 5th yr option is sometimes 3X as much salary as the final year of the rookie deal.

For example, OC Ryan Kelly was selected in the 1st Rd of the 2016 Draft by the Colts. The Colts decided in the 2019 offseason to pick-up his 5th yr option for the 2020 season, which was $10.35m, approx triple what his cap hit was for the final year on his rookie deal in 2019 was ($3.3m).

Assuming we sign O'Neill to an extension this offseason, he'll be the only $10m+ contract in 2021 and 2022. But starting in 2023, you could theoretically have O'Neill and Bradbury on $10m+ contracts, and then Ezra in 2024 and Darrisaw/Davis in 2025.

It's still a valid point though: for 2021 and 2022 seasons, the Vikings should have one of the youngest and "cheapest" OL's in the league. For reference, Spotrac currently has the Vikings as ranked 31st in OL spending at only $19.5m, and only approx 10% of the cap space goes to the OL (link).

Yeah, Bradbury has to make a massive turn around. I didn't mention him because I have my doubts he will. With that low of a overall cap figure on the OL, I guess we may have to stretch and pay O'Neill more than I think we should. We trash at finding OL and right now he is clearly the best we got. I think him and Hunter are both anchors respectively on both lines we need both. I know one thing Bradbury can't get 10 million and if he doesn't pass protect better he won't be our starting center next year. Almost time to see how things shape out this season is very important SKOL!

I don't like overpaying but I am willing to make a exception and not be to mad about overpaying in this particular circumstance. We can't make a habit of doing this though, it's a cap killer if done regularly. We already doing it with Kirk too, I just want us to be careful and not fall in a hole that takes years to get out of.

I really dont think we will be overpaying for O'neill. No he doesnt deserve ryan ramczyk money and untill I see we give him that I dont think we should be worried about it. Hes a big piece of the line and as we have seen its hard to find guys like him. We arent really strapped for cash like people make it seem and I dont see the Vikings having and issues paying both Hunter and ONeill long term contracts as they are both huge pieces to both sides of the ball. We are all set this year with contracts and Kirks big number is only on the hook for one more year, with the expected cap we are in fine position either way if we are rebuilding next year or competing again.

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Lock up O’Neill? Jul 21, 2021 14:04:38 GMT -6

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Jul 21, 2021 13:48:29 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Jul 21, 2021 13:06:59 GMT -6 Drank said:

Yeah, Bradbury has to make a massive turn around. I didn't mention him because I have my doubts he will. With that low of a overall cap figure on the OL, I guess we may have to stretch and pay O'Neill more than I think we should. We trash at finding OL and right now he is clearly the best we got. I think him and Hunter are both anchors respectively on both lines we need both. I know one thing Bradbury can't get 10 million and if he doesn't pass protect better he won't be our starting center next year. Almost time to see how things shape out this season is very important SKOL!

I don't like overpaying but I am willing to make a exception and not be to mad about overpaying in this particular circumstance. We can't make a habit of doing this though, it's a cap killer if done regularly. We already doing it with Kirk too, I just want us to be careful and not fall in a hole that takes years to get out of.

I really dont think we will be overpaying for O'neill. No he doesnt deserve ryan ramczyk money and untill I see we give him that I dont think we should be worried about it. Hes a big piece of the line and as we have seen its hard to find guys like him. We arent really strapped for cash like people make it seem and I dont see the Vikings having and issues paying both Hunter and ONeill long term contracts as they are both huge pieces to both sides of the ball. We are all set this year with contracts and Kirks big number is only on the hook for one more year, with the expected cap we are in fine position either way if we are rebuilding next year or competing again.

Let me ask you this loose? I hate zone coverage but they did have a good article earlier. They said Rodgers leaving the division hurts us and I agree. Because if the division is weak and Kirk wins the division at 10-7 does that prove anything?

Then we get our ass kicked in the playoffs and these dummies extend him? No I want this to be hard to see what it really is with Kirk a inflated season could make these clueless guys extend him. We can't afford 45 next year for Kirk. 20 for Hunter and a ass load for O'Neill plus others. It will be hard to field a team. Something has to give eventually don't it? Kirk get's a 15million bump next year that will be a factor surely.