What IS wrong with the Vikings?

comet52
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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 11:55:20 GMT -6 suncoastvike likes this

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Post by comet52 on Sept 23, 2020 11:55:20 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 9:40:16 GMT -6 PurplePastor said:

Sept 23, 2020 9:12:24 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Here's a hopeful take for you (not that I have any faith ownership would do this but, a guy can dream, right?)

The team is 0-6 or 1-5 at the bye. They can Zimmer. Keep Hunter on i.r. Give lots of playing time to rookies, get their feet wet. Lose 12 or more games and find a way to draft Lawrence or the other high rated qb whose name escapes me. Come January fire Rick, get a new g.m. and coach and start building. Clean out the deadwood players and contracts.
You're stuck with Kirk unless you can get Shanahan to take him so deal with it.

As I said, a guy can dream.

Realistically, if the ownership trots out Zimmer and Rick next year after a terrible season this year AND they stink next year (which they probably will), the fans will go nuts and many will give up on the team, possibly leaving their fandom behind (some maybe have already). HOWEVER, if ownership fires Zim & Rick this year, it will buy them time with the fans as the fans will wait to see what new leadership can accomplish with a rebuild. Unless they are sure this can be turned around quickly or at the least, next year, they need to move forward with new leadership.

In my experience fans tend to stick no matter how bad it is. I don't mean bandwagoneers who get on while they're hot and jump off when they're cold. But NFL ownership gets all the revenue it needs from t.v. - even in this covid mess with no fans they aren't going to lose money, just make less. So whether fans care or not only matters to a certain degree. Eyeballs on t.v.'s is what matters to this league, not whether an owner is inept or brilliant or whatever. I have little hope that this owner will fix things but who knows. He always said he wanted a winner, a great organization. He paid for a Cadillac and today it's a Yugo. Now what?

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 12:12:20 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 23, 2020 12:12:20 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 1:59:58 GMT -6 spence said:

I think the only thing wrong with us is we had 2 fluke losses. We are still one of the best teams in the league. Just wait until a few weeks down the line when everyone is jumping back on the bandwagon.

Fluke losses? I wish...

The only way we prove that is if we come out and win a couple over these next few weeks. Considering we've shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and have exactly ZERO to be confident about/build upon, I have my doubts, but I hope you're right. God, I hope you're right. We really needed that win in Indianapolis. It just gets uglier from here.

Also, no one will be jumping back on the bandwagon. Those who are already off it, were never on it.

Sept 23, 2020 8:33:12 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Sept 23, 2020 1:59:58 GMT -6 spence said:

I think the only thing wrong with us is we had 2 fluke losses. We are still one of the best teams in the league. Just wait until a few weeks down the line when everyone is jumping back on the bandwagon.

This thread has a lot of good dialogue and intelligent takes, with the exception of the above.

Well, and now we have two posts like that. Thanks, pal! *thumb_up*

Sept 23, 2020 8:45:43 GMT -6 comet52 said:

What does it matter what his response is? We're talking about what's wrong from top to bottom not Mike's pressers. Mike can cry in a towel after every game for all anyone cares. He's collecting millions to do his job, I'm sure he'll be fine with or without you nursemaiding his apparently fragile psyche.

The correct response organizationally should have been to part ways with him after San Francisco kicked his ass. He's just one of the 4 puzzle pieces of failure at this point--owner, g.m., coach and qb. But remember, Zygmunt says they're "so close!"

You're kind of making my point. "What does it matter what his response is?"

Well, if people are going to take issue with his pressers because he didn't have the right response, yeah, I'm going to ask what the right response would be. Because, truthfully, it makes no difference. People are going to complain about Zimmer no matter what he says or does. That's just how it goes. And his response isn't going to change the outcome of the first two games. So, yeah, be upset about the losses, but to always jump to "leadership" issues and "personality" issues? Really? After all he's done in the last six years? I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt, especially regarding his overall leadership.

But I get it. 90% of the people here just want to crap on him at every turn. They want the Vikings to lose so he gets fired. Okay, fine, you do you. But let's not nitpick pressers or "his response". Of course he's disheartened. Who isn't?!? The only thing that fixes this is winning. But you guys don't even want that at this point, so yeah, what does it matter what his response is?

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 12:18:22 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 23, 2020 12:18:22 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 7:17:42 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The problem on defense that I don't see being fixable is the Dline. Hunter comes back and that improves, but the interior will always be bad.

The fixable problem is the secondary. They will get better as the season progresses.

The problem on offense is harder to pin down. This is pretty much the same group we trotted out last season, minus Diggs. Well it would be fun to rub it in that losing Diggs hurt us more than most wanted to admit this off season, I don't think that is all of it.

Maybe the issue is actually that we have just played good defenses twice. It is well documented our QB sucks against top 10 defenses, and maybe we just played two top 10 pass defenses? Maybe week 1 for the Colts was just them knocking the rust off and they are actually pretty good on D?

Yeah, they seem confident in their defense, but... you just never know. Seems more probable that we just suck on offense. What do you think of the play calling? It's still so sad that the Jags were able to pass all over them and we ... did nothing. Ugh. Painful.

The Colts were a surprising loser in Week One as Jaguars quarterback Gardner Minshew went 19-of-20 and threw three touchdowns to lead his team to a 27-20 win.

Week Two saw better work from the Indianapolis defense. They held the Vikings to 175 yards while picking off three passes, posting three sacks and recording a safety. Defensive tackle DeForest Buckner had three tackles, 1.5 sacks, four quarterback hits and a tackle for loss to help lead that effort and he said after the game that he wants the performance to be a sign of things to come.

“We’ve been talking about it all year, our standards on defense, and we’ve got to make sure we uphold those standards,” Buckner said, via Joel A. Erickson of the Indianapolis Star. “Today was just a little taste of what we can do.”

The Colts will have a chance to show off again on defense in Week Three. The Jets have been dreadful through two weeks and they’ll be coming to town for Buckner and company to try for another feast.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/09/21/deforest-buckner-calls-sundays-game-a-little-taste-of-what-colts-defense-can-do/

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 12:25:30 GMT -6

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Post by NorZeman on Sept 23, 2020 12:25:30 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 12:12:20 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Sept 23, 2020 8:45:43 GMT -6 comet52 said:

You're kind of making my point. "What does it matter what his response is?"

Well, if people are going to take issue with his pressers because he didn't have the right response, yeah, I'm going to ask what the right response would be. Because, truthfully, it makes no difference. People are going to complain about Zimmer no matter what he says or does. That's just how it goes. And his response isn't going to change the outcome of the first two games. So, yeah, be upset about the losses, but to always jump to "leadership" issues and "personality" issues? Really? After all he's done in the last six years? I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt, especially regarding his overall leadership.

But I get it. 90% of the people here just want to crap on him at every turn. They want the Vikings to lose so he gets fired. Okay, fine, you do you. But let's not nitpick pressers or "his response". Of course he's disheartened. Who isn't?!? The only thing that fixes this is winning. But you guys don't even want that at this point, so yeah, what does it matter what his response is?

FWIW, my comment about leadership was a more general comment on the team as a whole. Players/coaches/FO.. The team has come out flat and stayed flat the first 2 weeks. That falls on the team's leadership, IMO.

My comment about his presser was just that it's concerning, to me, that he doesn't seem to have a plan.

You can read into whatever you like, and I'm new enough here that I don't know what has all previously been said..but I wouldn't say I was "crapping on him at every turn" but please go ahead and twist things I meant and said around to fit whatever narrative you are trying to push.

comet52
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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 12:40:13 GMT -6

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Post by comet52 on Sept 23, 2020 12:40:13 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 8:33:12 GMT -6 comet52 said:

This thread has a lot of good dialogue and intelligent takes, with the exception of the above.

Well, and now we have two posts like that. Thanks, pal! *thumb_up*

Why, did you make another one??

Sept 23, 2020 8:45:43 GMT -6 comet52 said:

What does it matter what his response is? We're talking about what's wrong from top to bottom not Mike's pressers. Mike can cry in a towel after every game for all anyone cares. He's collecting millions to do his job, I'm sure he'll be fine with or without you nursemaiding his apparently fragile psyche.

The correct response organizationally should have been to part ways with him after San Francisco kicked his ass. He's just one of the 4 puzzle pieces of failure at this point--owner, g.m., coach and qb. But remember, Zygmunt says they're "so close!"

You're kind of making my point. "What does it matter what his response is?"

Well, if people are going to take issue with his pressers because he didn't have the right response, yeah, I'm going to ask what the right response would be. Because, truthfully, it makes no difference. People are going to complain about Zimmer no matter what he says or does. That's just how it goes. And his response isn't going to change the outcome of the first two games. So, yeah, be upset about the losses, but to always jump to "leadership" issues and "personality" issues? Really? After all he's done in the last six years? I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt, especially regarding his overall leadership.

But I get it. 90% of the people here just want to crap on him at every turn. They want the Vikings to lose so he gets fired. Okay, fine, you do you. But let's not nitpick pressers or "his response". Of course he's disheartened. Who isn't?!? The only thing that fixes this is winning. But you guys don't even want that at this point, so yeah, what does it matter what his response is?

Who the heck is talking about his pressers besides you? I can't answer to you making up stuff that I never said or mentioned. I talk about what's wrong with the job he's doing and why he's the wrong guy after 6 years. The only presser I ever talk about is the weird one in 2016 at 5-0 where he got so arrogant with the media that you'd have thought he had 5 SB wins, not 5 regular season wins. Then they stumbled and his ego announced the players were "soft." Beginning of the end for poor Mike but my how it's dragged on.

Also some of his weird presser body language and takes on Diggs led me to believe he didn't like the kid and the angry, abusive name-calling overreaction to Digg's mini holdout and subsequent jettisoning of Diggs from the team just confirmed my suspicions.

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 12:53:29 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 23, 2020 12:53:29 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 6:27:22 GMT -6 NorZeman said:

For me personally, any of them would be fine except "If he's at a loss, that's a problem."

He's pissed off/tough/calling players (and coaches) out, good, he should be after their performances the last two weeks.
If he's calm and logical, great! That's probably the best outcome, especially if he's optimistic about getting back on track.

If he's at a loss... that means he has no plan on what to do and he's not showing the fire/energy that made him one of the best coaches in Viking history.

Both of these statements can be true, he can be one of the best in the team's history, and his time here may have run it's course now.

That's fair. For the record, I don't really think he's at a loss. I just tried to add all of the things I've read and seen implied over the last couple of years when things start going south for us. When things aren't going well, it tends to go to "leadership" right off the bat. I don't understand that.

Again, let's look at things in totality; not just when they go bad. The season was over Week 4 last year, and we weren't going to make the playoffs, and no way in hell we were beating New Orleans... It's a long season, and a lot can happen. Admittedly, the next month is HUGE because of this hole we're in, but it's not anything Zimmer hasn't dealt with before.

Zimmer has dealt with A LOT of adversity since becoming coach. A LOT. He's always found a way to pick up the pieces and push forward, even exceeding expectations when "the season is lost." I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, again, at least regarding his leadership, work ethic, etc. Only time will tell, but I hope he gets us back on track. That'll be much better for my mental health!

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 13:05:39 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 23, 2020 13:05:39 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 12:25:30 GMT -6 NorZeman said:

FWIW, my comment about leadership was a more general comment on the team as a whole. Players/coaches/FO.. The team has come out flat and stayed flat the first 2 weeks. That falls on the team's leadership, IMO.

My comment about his presser was just that it's concerning, to me, that he doesn't seem to have a plan.

You can read into whatever you like, and I'm new enough here that I don't know what has all previously been said..but I wouldn't say I was "crapping on him at every turn" but please go ahead and twist things I meant and said around to fit whatever narrative you are trying to push.

I was responding to comet and the general consensus of this board. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but I don't believe you were quoted in the "crapping on him at every turn." That was in reply to comet, and he has been here long enough to know the consensus. Sorry for the confusion.

As far as leadership, I've been over this a lot, so I don't want to write pages about it, but I think coming out flat is more on the players. Sometimes things happen, for whatever reason. It's not the job of the coach (or owner or front office) to "get guys up for the game". The football players will tell you this, too. Was it Greenway who commented on this? Maybe Leber? Whoever it was, they basically laughed at the notion that Zimmer doesn't get guys up for the game. I'll take their word for it.

As far as Zimmer having a plan, I'm sure he does. I mean, he said he wasn't going to put up with the mistakes anymore, and that they need to get back to what they're good at. So, I'm sure he has some things in mind. Whether they take shape or not is another story. We have several tough opponents coming up, and it's not going to be easy at all. Even if we are much improved and showing more efficiency, it might not be good enough. We needed to start showing life in Indianapolis!

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 13:21:21 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 23, 2020 13:21:21 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 12:40:13 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Who the heck is talking about his pressers besides you?

NorZeman was, and both of you were quoted on the previous page. I responded to both of you at the same time, because there seemed to be an issue with his pressers, personality, leadership, etc. That all kind of ties together, so I asked both of you what an acceptable response from him would be after two games like that. So that's where that came from.

Sept 23, 2020 12:40:13 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Also some of his weird presser body language and takes on Diggs led me to believe he didn't like the kid and the angry, abusive name-calling overreaction to Digg's mini holdout and subsequent jettisoning of Diggs from the team just confirmed my suspicions.

Diggs quit on the team after a poor outing in Chicago, made it clear he wanted out, and eventually got out. As a leader, of course Zimmer was upset when someone quit on the team at the first sign of adversity. That's pretty weak, even for a WR. If that's your TEAM, you side with YOUR TEAM over an individual who decided to not show up to work. It's pretty simple. You don't quit on your team when they need you the most, and when you do, you're going to rub people the wrong way. You think Zimmer was the only one upset? I'm sure his teammates weren't huge fans either, but they made it work until the end of the season. Good for everyone involved, but now we know why there were always those rumblings about a "Diggs trade".

Also, Zimmer said a bunch of nice things about Diggs after the trade; said he never needed to go, but an opportunity presented itself and they took it. It is what it is, but Zimmer wasn't out of line for being upset over a highly-paid player pretending to be too good to come to work while everyone else came back and wanted to keep fighting. I imagine he's not a huge fan of quitters, regardless of how ugly things get, and, well, rightfully so. Ain't nobody got time for that!

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 13:28:40 GMT -6

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Post by PurplePeopleEater on Sept 23, 2020 13:28:40 GMT -6

We have plenty of issues, but the largest being Kirk Cousins.

I have been a major critic of his every step of the way, since before we even signed his first contract and we were vying for his services. Nothing has changed. The saints game is a fluke until he can replicate similar performances. Kirk is NOT going to be the guy we signed him to be. Never. I am convinced of this, but would love to be proven wrong. That being said, I am 1000% convinced of the following:

We will never be a true contender with Kirk Cousins. N-E-V-E-R. Take that to the bank.

We will never be a true contender with Rick Spielman. N-E-V-E-R. Take that to the bank.

I was not as quick to include Zimmer in this category, but it is about time we do so.

The 3 headed monster of this team, that are all in the first year of their long term extensions, is keeping this team from being true contenders. We can sign cook, hunter, whoever... all that is going to do is keep us somewhat relevant enough to avoid the basement, but NEVER good enough to be true contenders. We are in this middling purgatory that we either refuse or are unable to get out of.

This is not an overreaction to a bad start to the season. It is simply a confirmation of what I've been saying for years.

I will ask another question for you all, specifically the blind optimists:

When and at what point do we conclude that Kirk and Spielman are not it? What else do you have to see? I would like some serious responses to a serious question so I can understand what it is that keeps you holding on to hope with these 2 specifically.

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 14:03:50 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 23, 2020 14:03:50 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2020 14:04:35 GMT -6 bdillon0820 said:

I think the Vikings chose to pay the wrong players. Zimmer's teams have always been known for their defense, but we've overpaid for some players on offense that have put the team in cap hell where they've been forced to have 6 new faces on defense. The OL has been neglected too often. I don't blame the Vikings for the Diggs situation. The team got better all around and he wanted to leave because that meant less passes thrown to him. I think Cousins is relying too much on Thielen and needs to trust his other receivers more. The team has lost its main identity (defense) and now is paying for their mistakes in managing the salary cap.

Good, fair post.

Out of curiosity, who do you think they should have tried to pay instead (over the past couple of years)? Have anyone specific in mind, or just a feeling about keeping the defense strong and prioritizing the OL?

suncoastvike
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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 19:49:49 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth likes this

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Post by suncoastvike on Sept 23, 2020 19:49:49 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 11:55:20 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Sept 23, 2020 9:40:16 GMT -6 PurplePastor said:

Realistically, if the ownership trots out Zimmer and Rick next year after a terrible season this year AND they stink next year (which they probably will), the fans will go nuts and many will give up on the team, possibly leaving their fandom behind (some maybe have already). HOWEVER, if ownership fires Zim & Rick this year, it will buy them time with the fans as the fans will wait to see what new leadership can accomplish with a rebuild. Unless they are sure this can be turned around quickly or at the least, next year, they need to move forward with new leadership.

In my experience fans tend to stick no matter how bad it is. I don't mean bandwagoneers who get on while they're hot and jump off when they're cold. But NFL ownership gets all the revenue it needs from t.v. - even in this covid mess with no fans they aren't going to lose money, just make less. So whether fans care or not only matters to a certain degree. Eyeballs on t.v.'s is what matters to this league, not whether an owner is inept or brilliant or whatever. I have little hope that this owner will fix things but who knows. He always said he wanted a winner, a great organization. He paid for a Cadillac and today it's a Yugo. Now what?

We had 14 straight sellout seasons spanning Mike Tice, Childress and Frazier. Viking fans can take it.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

mikenessfan
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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 20:00:23 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mikenessfan on Sept 23, 2020 20:00:23 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 19:49:49 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Sept 23, 2020 11:55:20 GMT -6 comet52 said:

In my experience fans tend to stick no matter how bad it is. I don't mean bandwagoneers who get on while they're hot and jump off when they're cold. But NFL ownership gets all the revenue it needs from t.v. - even in this covid mess with no fans they aren't going to lose money, just make less. So whether fans care or not only matters to a certain degree. Eyeballs on t.v.'s is what matters to this league, not whether an owner is inept or brilliant or whatever. I have little hope that this owner will fix things but who knows. He always said he wanted a winner, a great organization. He paid for a Cadillac and today it's a Yugo. Now what?

We had 14 straight sellout seasons spanning Mike Tice, Childress and Frazier. Viking fans can take it.

Maybe that’s the problem.

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 20:09:34 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Sept 23, 2020 20:09:34 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 20:00:23 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Sept 23, 2020 19:49:49 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

We had 14 straight sellout seasons spanning Mike Tice, Childress and Frazier. Viking fans can take it.

Maybe that’s the problem.

I don't know if it's a problem. I guess if you mean owners get complacent because they believe fans are happy with it.
I think it shows pride and I'm all kinds of proud of that.

I hear all the time. Who has the best fans. If you want truly best fans you need to throw out all multiple Super Bowl winners. Steelers best? Cowboys or Patriots best? Packers best? Nope it easy to be a fan of a team that tasted greatness.

We do want more but still show up all the same no matter.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 20:12:58 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mikenessfan on Sept 23, 2020 20:12:58 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 14:03:50 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Sept 22, 2020 14:04:35 GMT -6 bdillon0820 said:

I think the Vikings chose to pay the wrong players. Zimmer's teams have always been known for their defense, but we've overpaid for some players on offense that have put the team in cap hell where they've been forced to have 6 new faces on defense. The OL has been neglected too often. I don't blame the Vikings for the Diggs situation. The team got better all around and he wanted to leave because that meant less passes thrown to him. I think Cousins is relying too much on Thielen and needs to trust his other receivers more. The team has lost its main identity (defense) and now is paying for their mistakes in managing the salary cap.

Good, fair post.

Out of curiosity, who do you think they should have tried to pay instead (over the past couple of years)? Have anyone specific in mind, or just a feeling about keeping the defense strong and prioritizing the OL?

Imo I think there were some great extensions we did. Kendricks and hunter are at the top of the list. Theilen was another one. But you know why they were great? Because it was obvious they were consistent players who made plays on the field and you could count on them. As long as O’Neil continues his production, he better get an extension. But there are some obvious guys who should not have gotten them. Cousins, Barr, and Rudolph are 3 of the main ones that should have not gotten extensions for players. Obviously as you know I don’t think Spielman or Zimmer should have been extended, but I think we are talking more cap so the players side. I love cook and he is a good rb, but I don’t believe in giving rb’s big contract extensions and he got one. They are the easiest position to find a replacement for and getting them in the draft is the easiest and cheapest way. And you don’t even have to use a 1st or 2nd round pick on a decent rb. I love the Vikings and for awhile 2014 to 2018 I was on the Spielman and Zimmer train (little less for Spielman and more for Zimmer) but I’ve seen these guys top out. Both of them. I know what the solution is and it’s starting new, but zygi just extended them both and seems to be tied to the hip for the next couple years at learn with them. They aren’t capable imo to deliver a championship.

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What IS wrong with the Vikings? Sept 23, 2020 20:19:57 GMT -6 via mobile suncoastvike likes this

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Post by mikenessfan on Sept 23, 2020 20:19:57 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2020 20:09:34 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Sept 23, 2020 20:00:23 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Maybe that’s the problem.

I don't know if it's a problem. I guess if you mean owners get complacent because they believe fans are happy with it.
I think it shows pride and I'm all kinds of proud of that.

I hear all the time. Who has the best fans. If you want truly best fans you need to throw out all multiple Super Bowl winners. Steelers best? Cowboys or Patriots best? Packers best? Nope it easy to be a fan of a team that tasted greatness.

We do want more but still show up all the same no matter.

I totally get what your saying. I agree I think the Vikings have one the best fan bases in the nfl. We get tortured probably more than any other fan base because we have gotten so close so many times but can’t get over the hump, yet we all come back. We love this team. But in the same regard, maybe that is what the problem is. Maybe because for example under Spielman, our teams have always been middling, sometimes better and sometimes worse. But because they always are there maybe the ownership is complacent and because the fans don’t demand a change or are vocal about it, as long as the $ keeps coming the owners keep it same old same old. I think even the biggest Vikings homer would admit this team this year is not a sb caliber team and knows we aren’t winning it this year. The question though is if this team ends 3-13 or 4-12 then do the fans start becoming vocal? Does the media echo those thoughts? Is there any pressure brought to the wilfs?