The Ripple Effects

Raptorman
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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 4:51:36 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 1, 2020 4:51:36 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 1:07:49 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Aug 31, 2020 18:04:05 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

Danielle did have a choice in the matter. But since it didn't affect him in any way he essentially said "yeah sure why not". Let's give Danielle credit for agreeing to the restructure though. You da man, Danielle Hunter!

Are you sure? I think most of these contracts are written to allow the team to accelerate future salary to current guaranteed money. Why on God's green earth wouldn't a player agree with this?

?

Basic contract law prevents one side from making changes to a contract without he other contract signer agreeing to it. If it could be done the way claimed, the players would be getting screwed left and right.

Why agree to it? Because he still gets the money. It's like tranfering money from your checking account to savings, you still have it, just in a different account. It also went down the day after his 2020 salary became guarnteed. It has no effect on the pay he gets.

Last Edit: Sept 1, 2020 4:52:18 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 5:15:14 GMT -6 via mobile diehardtwinsfan likes this

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Post by legendsofthenorth on Sept 1, 2020 5:15:14 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 4:51:36 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Sept 1, 2020 1:07:49 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Are you sure? I think most of these contracts are written to allow the team to accelerate future salary to current guaranteed money. Why on God's green earth wouldn't a player agree with this?

?

Basic contract law prevents one side from making changes to a contract without he other contract signer agreeing to it. If it could be done the way claimed, the players would be getting screwed left and right.

Why agree to it? Because he still gets the money. It's like tranfering money from your checking account to savings, you still have it, just in a different account. It also went down the day after his 2020 salary became guarnteed. It has no effect on the pay he gets.

Pretty sure the players agree to the clause in the contract when the contract is originally SF signed.

suncoastvike
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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 5:18:56 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Sept 1, 2020 5:18:56 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 4:05:55 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Aug 31, 2020 21:14:50 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

If you rollover 11 into next year that is essentially a free 11 million. So if Reiff is cut this year its 11 million on top of next years cap instead of just the cap relief of cutting him next year.

I am not a proponent of wasting cap space like I said in other threads but it will go a long way in getting those contracts locked up next year. That's how teams get so much cap room

This won't do anything to "get those contracts locked up"
Assuming a minimum cap of $175M in 2021,the Vikings would be $4M over the cap with the players they have signed and Reiff off the books.

I would estimate the following dollar amounts:
Ngakoue - $17M
Harris - $15M
Cook- $10M

That's $42M in cap space they would need to find,which is why I stated in another thread that both Cook and Harris will be gone after this year.
I'm not sure how they fit Ngakoue in but it will take more than just tinkering around with restructures.
And just to make things more interesting,if Kirk Cousins is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2021 league year then his 2022 salary of $45M will become fully guaranteed.

I know I am in the minority,but I stand by my earlier statements that the Cousins extension was a dumb move,as was the Ngakoue acquisition.Cutting Reiff just makes things worse,not better.

Agree

Us together still makes a minority.

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 5:29:29 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by legendsofthenorth on Sept 1, 2020 5:29:29 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 4:05:55 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Aug 31, 2020 21:14:50 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

If you rollover 11 into next year that is essentially a free 11 million. So if Reiff is cut this year its 11 million on top of next years cap instead of just the cap relief of cutting him next year.

I am not a proponent of wasting cap space like I said in other threads but it will go a long way in getting those contracts locked up next year. That's how teams get so much cap room

This won't do anything to "get those contracts locked up"
Assuming a minimum cap of $175M in 2021,the Vikings would be $4M over the cap with the players they have signed and Reiff off the books.

I would estimate the following dollar amounts:
Ngakoue - $17M
Harris - $15M
Cook- $10M

That's $42M in cap space they would need to find,which is why I stated in another thread that both Cook and Harris will be gone after this year.
I'm not sure how they fit Ngakoue in but it will take more than just tinkering around with restructures.
And just to make things more interesting,if Kirk Cousins is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2021 league year then his 2022 salary of $45M will become fully guaranteed.

I know I am in the minority,but I stand by my earlier statements that the Cousins extension was a dumb move,as was the Ngakoue acquisition.Cutting Reiff just makes things worse,not better.

You missed a couple things.

1. With Reiff off the books this year we would have 186 million to play with. 11 million carry over. Assuming cap floor argument.
2. You are using average cap number on signing these guys. First year cap number is always lower. Wouldn't be close to 42 million. But I agree they all aren't getting signed so that point is mute.
3. What if its flat cap next year?

I dont think they sign all 3 either way.
1. No one wants Cook resigned on here anyway
2. Yannick is getting resigned
3. They arent paying 15 million for Harris so like you said he is gone.

suncoastvike
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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 5:39:00 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Sept 1, 2020 5:39:00 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 5:29:29 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

Sept 1, 2020 4:05:55 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

This won't do anything to "get those contracts locked up"
Assuming a minimum cap of $175M in 2021,the Vikings would be $4M over the cap with the players they have signed and Reiff off the books.

I would estimate the following dollar amounts:
Ngakoue - $17M
Harris - $15M
Cook- $10M

That's $42M in cap space they would need to find,which is why I stated in another thread that both Cook and Harris will be gone after this year.
I'm not sure how they fit Ngakoue in but it will take more than just tinkering around with restructures.
And just to make things more interesting,if Kirk Cousins is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2021 league year then his 2022 salary of $45M will become fully guaranteed.

I know I am in the minority,but I stand by my earlier statements that the Cousins extension was a dumb move,as was the Ngakoue acquisition.Cutting Reiff just makes things worse,not better.

You missed a couple things.

1. With Reiff off the books this year we would have 186 million to play with. 11 million carry over. Assuming cap floor argument.
2. You are using average cap number on signing these guys. First year cap number is always lower. Wouldn't be close to 42 million. But I agree they all aren't getting signed so that point is mute.
3. What if its flat cap next year?

I dont think they sign all 3 either way.
1. No one wants Cook resigned on here anyway
2. Yannick is getting resigned
3. They arent paying 15 million for Harris so like you said he is gone.

I don't get it though? We are going to lose 2 of the 3 almost surely by your thinking? Yet keep one who may want to get really really paid like a top 5 guy but is not. That is the kind of thinking with this team that has kept us always chasing brass rings instead of platinum diamond and gem encrusted gaudy rings other teams already have.
Sorry for all my negativity guys. I just can't shake a bad feeling Mike and Rick have just about hit the wall head first and spin will not get us where we want to be.

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Raptorman
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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:05:37 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 1, 2020 6:05:37 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 4:05:55 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Aug 31, 2020 21:14:50 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

If you rollover 11 into next year that is essentially a free 11 million. So if Reiff is cut this year its 11 million on top of next years cap instead of just the cap relief of cutting him next year.

I am not a proponent of wasting cap space like I said in other threads but it will go a long way in getting those contracts locked up next year. That's how teams get so much cap room

This won't do anything to "get those contracts locked up"
Assuming a minimum cap of $175M in 2021,the Vikings would be $4M over the cap with the players they have signed and Reiff off the books.

I would estimate the following dollar amounts:
Ngakoue - $17M
Harris - $15M
Cook- $10M

That's $42M in cap space they would need to find,which is why I stated in another thread that both Cook and Harris will be gone after this year.
I'm not sure how they fit Ngakoue in but it will take more than just tinkering around with restructures.
And just to make things more interesting,if Kirk Cousins is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2021 league year then his 2022 salary of $45M will become fully guaranteed.

I know I am in the minority,but I stand by my earlier statements that the Cousins extension was a dumb move,as was the Ngakoue acquisition.Cutting Reiff just makes things worse,not better.

Only one problem with those numbers. Every team will be down next year and many don't have a lot of players signed. So the first year numbers are likely to be much lower. Because all teams will be in the same boat. Yannick left the Jagss for a better team at a lower price. You really think next year he will go to a sucky team just for the money?

At $175 million 12 teams are already over the cap and 6 are under $10 million.

Last Edit: Sept 1, 2020 6:08:20 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:12:50 GMT -6 OdinHammer and legendsofthenorth like this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 1, 2020 6:12:50 GMT -6

Aug 31, 2020 18:04:05 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

Aug 31, 2020 17:49:32 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

He didn't do anything. The Vikings moved cap from future seasons to the current one and chose Hunters contract to do it. He had no choice in the matter and it did not affect him in any way.

Danielle did have a choice in the matter. But since it didn't affect him in any way he essentially said "yeah sure why not". Let's give Danielle credit for agreeing to the restructure though. You da man, Danielle Hunter!

That's not true... his contract had a provision that they could send an email to his agent and do it automatically... most contracts have that type of provision in them. It doesn't cost the player a thing as their base salary for the year gets converted to a signing bonus. They get their money up front instead of in game checks.

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:20:17 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 1, 2020 6:20:17 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 5:39:00 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Sept 1, 2020 5:29:29 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

You missed a couple things.

1. With Reiff off the books this year we would have 186 million to play with. 11 million carry over. Assuming cap floor argument.
2. You are using average cap number on signing these guys. First year cap number is always lower. Wouldn't be close to 42 million. But I agree they all aren't getting signed so that point is mute.
3. What if its flat cap next year?

I dont think they sign all 3 either way.
1. No one wants Cook resigned on here anyway
2. Yannick is getting resigned
3. They arent paying 15 million for Harris so like you said he is gone.

I don't get it though? We are going to lose 2 of the 3 almost surely by your thinking? Yet keep one who may want to get really really paid like a top 5 guy but is not. That is the kind of thinking with this team that has kept us always chasing brass rings instead of platinum diamond and gem encrusted gaudy rings other teams already have.
Sorry for all my negativity guys. I just can't shake a bad feeling Mike and Rick have just about hit the wall head first and spin will not get us where we want to be.

The issue with all 3 of these guys will not be 2021... I suppose it could be with Ngakoue if they tag him or really any of them... they cap hits for anyone extended will be relatively low in 2021... that's standard. It's 2022 where the issue comes in play as there will be much higher base salaries along with the first year's proration of those cap figures. So long as the 2021 cap doesn't shrink significantly (which is a pretty dangerous assumption), they could do it in 2020...

To be clear, I'm not sure that's a good idea. Cook in particular I'd probably let walk. I'd be inclined to try and keep the other two pending on the outcome of 2020.

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:21:02 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 1, 2020 6:21:02 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 5:15:14 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

Sept 1, 2020 4:51:36 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Basic contract law prevents one side from making changes to a contract without he other contract signer agreeing to it. If it could be done the way claimed, the players would be getting screwed left and right.

Why agree to it? Because he still gets the money. It's like tranfering money from your checking account to savings, you still have it, just in a different account. It also went down the day after his 2020 salary became guarnteed. It has no effect on the pay he gets.

Pretty sure the players agree to the clause in the contract when the contract is originally SF signed.

This.. it's written into the contract.

suncoastvike
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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:23:35 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Sept 1, 2020 6:23:35 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 6:20:17 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

Sept 1, 2020 5:39:00 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

I don't get it though? We are going to lose 2 of the 3 almost surely by your thinking? Yet keep one who may want to get really really paid like a top 5 guy but is not. That is the kind of thinking with this team that has kept us always chasing brass rings instead of platinum diamond and gem encrusted gaudy rings other teams already have.
Sorry for all my negativity guys. I just can't shake a bad feeling Mike and Rick have just about hit the wall head first and spin will not get us where we want to be.

The issue with all 3 of these guys will not be 2021... I suppose it could be with Ngakoue if they tag him or really any of them... they cap hits for anyone extended will be relatively low in 2021... that's standard. It's 2022 where the issue comes in play as there will be much higher base salaries along with the first year's proration of those cap figures. So long as the 2021 cap doesn't shrink significantly (which is a pretty dangerous assumption), they could do it in 2020...

To be clear, I'm not sure that's a good idea. Cook in particular I'd probably let walk. I'd be inclined to try and keep the other two pending on the outcome of 2020.

That's true. If we extend it will move it ahead.
I agree Cook is my choice of the 3 if cost needs.

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suncoastvike
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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:29:13 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Sept 1, 2020 6:29:13 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 6:20:17 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

Sept 1, 2020 5:39:00 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

I don't get it though? We are going to lose 2 of the 3 almost surely by your thinking? Yet keep one who may want to get really really paid like a top 5 guy but is not. That is the kind of thinking with this team that has kept us always chasing brass rings instead of platinum diamond and gem encrusted gaudy rings other teams already have.
Sorry for all my negativity guys. I just can't shake a bad feeling Mike and Rick have just about hit the wall head first and spin will not get us where we want to be.

The issue with all 3 of these guys will not be 2021... I suppose it could be with Ngakoue if they tag him or really any of them... they cap hits for anyone extended will be relatively low in 2021... that's standard. It's 2022 where the issue comes in play as there will be much higher base salaries along with the first year's proration of those cap figures. So long as the 2021 cap doesn't shrink significantly (which is a pretty dangerous assumption), they could do it in 2020...

To be clear, I'm not sure that's a good idea. Cook in particular I'd probably let walk. I'd be inclined to try and keep the other two pending on the outcome of 2020.

I got another question. How does Pierce who opt'ed out this year factor in? He was our one big FA acquisition? This year and next cap wise?

Last Edit: Sept 1, 2020 6:30:50 GMT -6 by suncoastvike

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:50:31 GMT -6 suncoastvike likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 1, 2020 6:50:31 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 6:29:13 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Sept 1, 2020 6:20:17 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

The issue with all 3 of these guys will not be 2021... I suppose it could be with Ngakoue if they tag him or really any of them... they cap hits for anyone extended will be relatively low in 2021... that's standard. It's 2022 where the issue comes in play as there will be much higher base salaries along with the first year's proration of those cap figures. So long as the 2021 cap doesn't shrink significantly (which is a pretty dangerous assumption), they could do it in 2020...

To be clear, I'm not sure that's a good idea. Cook in particular I'd probably let walk. I'd be inclined to try and keep the other two pending on the outcome of 2020.

I got another question. How does Pierce who opt'ed out this year factor in? He was our one big FA acquisition? This year and next cap wise?

My understanding is that his entire contract (including the cap setup) got pushed a year down the road. We got money back on our cap for this... it may not have been the entire amount, but I think it was.

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 6:51:20 GMT -6 NoresemanSam, OdinHammer, and 1 more like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Sept 1, 2020 6:51:20 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 5:15:14 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

Sept 1, 2020 4:51:36 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Basic contract law prevents one side from making changes to a contract without he other contract signer agreeing to it. If it could be done the way claimed, the players would be getting screwed left and right.

Why agree to it? Because he still gets the money. It's like tranfering money from your checking account to savings, you still have it, just in a different account. It also went down the day after his 2020 salary became guarnteed. It has no effect on the pay he gets.

Pretty sure the players agree to the clause in the contract when the contract is originally SF signed.

Correct!

I can't find documentation for this at the moment, but there are clauses in these players contracts that allow teams to convert salary to signing bonus without the player giving their consent. This makes sense, because it does not affect how much money the player is earning, and the move really has nothing to do with that player at all. It is just moving salary cap, which affects the team, not the player. MarkSP from DN writes about it quite a bit when he does his salary cap breakdowns.

It is amazing how many people get this part of NFL contracts wrong, and I am not talking about your average message board user either. I expect most people don't know this and why should they when people paid to cover these restructures constantly write about how "the player helped out the team with a restructure".

My favorite is when paid writers say things about how it somehow affects how a team will handle cutting a player in future years, since it means more dead money if they are cut. That money is gone whether the player is cut, traded or plays for the team. It is irrelevant to any decision made about whether to keep or cut a player.

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 7:28:14 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2020 7:28:14 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 5:29:29 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

With Reiff off the books this year we would have 186 million to play with. 11 million carry over.

You're assuming they don't spend that money,and that's not an assumption I agree with.

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The Ripple Effects Sept 1, 2020 7:41:10 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Sept 1, 2020 7:41:10 GMT -6

Sept 1, 2020 7:28:14 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Sept 1, 2020 5:29:29 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth said:

With Reiff off the books this year we would have 186 million to play with. 11 million carry over.

You're assuming they don't spend that money,and that's not an assumption I agree with.

Plus it is only 8.8 million saved.

If this move follows the pattern of every other move this off-season, the Vikings will cut Reiff, giving them more assets for 2021, a year they are more likely to compete than the current year, with a move that completely wipes out those assets.