Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure

whoskmoon
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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 5, 2020 18:40:43 GMT -6 Minniman likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 5, 2020 18:40:43 GMT -6

Jul 5, 2020 14:10:02 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

You were probably a big Teddy guy, huh? When everyone was repetitively pointing out that he didn't "have the stats" -- you probably argued intangibles, potential, team chemistry, etc.? You probably never cared that he didn't have the best "stats"? Yeah, me neither, but everyone always told me, "It's about the stats! If he was a good QB, he'd have the stats to show for it!" Okay, and now we have a QB who has the stats, and now it's ... "...but he's not Patrick Mahomes or Russell Wilson."

*hammer*

Also, I'm not sure why you have such an issue with stats. How else do you measure/rank players? How do players earn their contracts? How do they make All-Pro? How do they get into the HOF? Yeah, stats actually do matter... And, in this case, they severely weaken many of the narratives surrounding Cousins. Not all, no -- but several. That's important to note, so we don't have an echo chamber here. How boring would a, "The Vikings suck, the Wilfs suck, Spielman sucks, Zimmer sucks, aaand Cousins sucks" echo chamber be?! Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. I bet Packers forums aren't even that lame!

*govikes*

Teddy had all the intangibles that when he eventually developed into the QB he looked like he was becoming, would have been the difference in wins and losses while he also put up great numbers. Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brees and Brady have the intangibles and the stats. That is what you need to win it all. Great stats on top of the intangibles. Without it you can win 10 or 11 games here or there, but you are never going to be able to take the next step without a lot going your way.

Cousins is an empty stat sheet. Great against crap teams we don't necessarily need great against, crap against great ones. He was terrible when pressured when we played the Bears, Packers, KC, and SF, but when he played the likes of Washington, NY, Detroit and Denver, he was fantastic against pressure. Now let me ask you something, does him being good against pressure against bad teams matter in the end? We saw the games, we know what he does when pressured when facing good teams and have read countless articles from fan boys who claim that is why he failed in those games. The pressure narrative is one from the Cousins apologist just as much as the people who would be happier with a different QB.

Wait a minute, if he is actually good against pressure, it must not have been the line and just him having a bad game against GB X 2, Chicago, KC and SF. All this time people have been saying it was the Oline, yet now we know the truth, it is Cousins and it doesn't matter if we improve the line, he will still suck in those types of games.

PurpleKoolaid
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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 5, 2020 23:44:23 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jul 5, 2020 23:44:23 GMT -6

I hear a lot of people saying Cousins would be so good with a good Oline. ANY QB would be a good QB with a good Oline, even Ponder. A big part of that is having a great run game that fears the opponents D. So they cant just rush the QB and move everyone back. For whatever reason, Ricky doesnt believe this. It blows my mind. I believe Cousins panics exactly like Rogers does, when he gets continuous pressure. A good line would really help that. Last draft we should have went after guards. We didnt. we dont have any good ones really. Dozer is going to be one of the better ones, and that isnt saying much. Kline should have stayed, dig into Cousins personal solid gold chest for the little extra cash it would have taken to keep Kline. And we should have trade or just cut Rieff. Hes another has been. His time has gone. He got a little bit worse every year he was here, and now hes horrible. I dont see how anyone can like him or defend him. Its like the people that tried to defend Kalil to the bitter end. We need to make the Oline the priority. With young backups. And then switch to the Dline the following year. I think everything else can fall into place.

Minniman Moderator Posts: 13,640 Likes: 8,134	Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 8:26:48 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Minniman on Jul 6, 2020 8:26:48 GMT -6 Completion Percentage Above Expectation (+/-) This is a very subjective stat that does not take into account critical factors. Please take it with a grain of salt.
	Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 8:34:26 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Jul 6, 2020 8:34:26 GMT -6

Jul 5, 2020 18:40:43 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jul 5, 2020 14:10:02 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

I'm not sure why you have such an issue with stats. How else do you measure/rank players? How do players earn their contracts? How do they make All-Pro? How do they get into the HOF? Yeah, stats actually do matter... And, in this case, they severely weaken many of the narratives surrounding Cousins. Not all, no -- but several. That's important to note, so we don't have an echo chamber here. How boring would a, "The Vikings suck, the Wilfs suck, Spielman sucks, Zimmer sucks, aaand Cousins sucks" echo chamber be?! Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. I bet Packers forums aren't even that lame!

Teddy had all the intangibles that when he eventually developed into the QB he looked like he was becoming, would have been the difference in wins and losses while he also put up great numbers. Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brees and Brady have the intangibles and the stats. That is what you need to win it all. Great stats on top of the intangibles. Without it you can win 10 or 11 games here or there, but you are never going to be able to take the next step without a lot going your way.

Cousins is an empty stat sheet. Great against crap teams we don't necessarily need great against, crap against great ones. He was terrible when pressured when we played the Bears, Packers, KC, and SF, but when he played the likes of Washington, NY, Detroit and Denver, he was fantastic against pressure. Now let me ask you something, does him being good against pressure against bad teams matter in the end? We saw the games, we know what he does when pressured when facing good teams and have read countless articles from fan boys who claim that is why he failed in those games. The pressure narrative is one from the Cousins apologist just as much as the people who would be happier with a different QB.

Wait a minute, if he is actually good against pressure, it must not have been the line and just him having a bad game against GB X 2, Chicago, KC and SF. All this time people have been saying it was the Oline, yet now we know the truth, it is Cousins and it doesn't matter if we improve the line, he will still suck in those types of games.

A quarterback that gets the ball out slower than any other starter, and long term backups as well, makes his own pressure.

Know the plays, read the defense, go through progressions, make the throws. The clock is ticking, and the bad men are coming for you.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

whoskmoon
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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 12:29:36 GMT -6 Minniman likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 6, 2020 12:29:36 GMT -6

Jul 6, 2020 8:34:26 GMT -6 Minniman said:

Jul 5, 2020 18:40:43 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Teddy had all the intangibles that when he eventually developed into the QB he looked like he was becoming, would have been the difference in wins and losses while he also put up great numbers. Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brees and Brady have the intangibles and the stats. That is what you need to win it all. Great stats on top of the intangibles. Without it you can win 10 or 11 games here or there, but you are never going to be able to take the next step without a lot going your way.

Cousins is an empty stat sheet. Great against crap teams we don't necessarily need great against, crap against great ones. He was terrible when pressured when we played the Bears, Packers, KC, and SF, but when he played the likes of Washington, NY, Detroit and Denver, he was fantastic against pressure. Now let me ask you something, does him being good against pressure against bad teams matter in the end? We saw the games, we know what he does when pressured when facing good teams and have read countless articles from fan boys who claim that is why he failed in those games. The pressure narrative is one from the Cousins apologist just as much as the people who would be happier with a different QB.

Wait a minute, if he is actually good against pressure, it must not have been the line and just him having a bad game against GB X 2, Chicago, KC and SF. All this time people have been saying it was the Oline, yet now we know the truth, it is Cousins and it doesn't matter if we improve the line, he will still suck in those types of games.

A quarterback that gets the ball out slower than any other starter, and long term backups as well, makes his own pressure.

Know the plays, read the defense, go through progressions, make the throws. The clock is ticking, and the bad men are coming for you.

Agreed, the QB can make the Oline look much worse or much better depending on what they do. You don't need to look any further than TN last year, when the Oline was a problem for Marriotta, while Tannehill had his best season behind it. Marriotta held the ball too long, didn't have a particularly good pocket presence, and the Oline looked terrible in front of him. Tannehill comes in, and doesn't necessarily get rid of the ball quicker on average, but got rid of the ball quicker when he needed too. He was less mobile than Mariotta, but his pocket awareness was much better.

Cousins waits until the last possible minute to throw the football. Sometimes that results in a spectacular play when a safety is out of position and Theilen gets behind his guy, sometimes it results in a poor throw, a sack or an interception. It always results in the Oline getting a tick in the PFF pressure stat, whether there was a positive outcome or a negative. It also rarely works against defenses that don't suck.

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 12:52:18 GMT -6 Funkytown and vikingpwr like this

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Post by Will on Jul 6, 2020 12:52:18 GMT -6

Cousins is a better than average NFL QB. He is not Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, or Brady. He fits the Kubiak scheme well. While he holds the ball longer than most, he often makes a good play by holding it a little longer. His stats back that up. Sometimes he misses open receivers. Does he not see open guys far more than other QBs? I have no clue.

After the New Orleans game, I have more confidence that Cousins can win big games. Foles won a Super Bowl, and I'd rather have Cousins than Foles.

joecphillips Starter Posts: 623 Likes: 68	Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 17:59:57 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan and suncoastvike like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by joecphillips on Jul 6, 2020 17:59:57 GMT -6 Kirk is a good qb who can win you games but I don’t think good enough to win the big game with the type of cap space he takes

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 18:24:10 GMT -6 via mobile Will likes this

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Post by legendsofthenorth on Jul 6, 2020 18:24:10 GMT -6

Jul 6, 2020 17:59:57 GMT -6 joecphillips said:

Kirk is a good qb who can win you games but I don’t think good enough to win the big game with the type of cap space he takes

I think he can win games personally. He just needs to do it more often and in the division

Deleted Ghosted Member Posts: 0 Likes:	Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 18:51:44 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 18:51:44 GMT -6 Jul 6, 2020 12:52:18 GMT -6 Will said: Foles won a Super Bowl Behind the best OL in football.

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 19:18:10 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Jul 6, 2020 19:18:10 GMT -6

Jul 6, 2020 17:59:57 GMT -6 joecphillips said:

Kirk is a good qb who can win you games but I don’t think good enough to win the big game with the type of cap space he takes

So Kirk is a good QB we are paying like a great one. Yeah that can create problems.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 6, 2020 22:17:27 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Jul 6, 2020 22:17:27 GMT -6

Jul 6, 2020 18:51:44 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Jul 6, 2020 12:52:18 GMT -6 Will said:

Foles won a Super Bowl

Behind the best OL in football.

Foles fit that offensive scheme, and that helped the line play better.

It is that type of synergy we have not seen with Kirk Cousins and the Vikings offensive line.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

whoskmoon
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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 7, 2020 6:12:44 GMT -6 Will likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 7, 2020 6:12:44 GMT -6

Jul 6, 2020 22:17:27 GMT -6 Minniman said:

Jul 6, 2020 18:51:44 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Behind the best OL in football.

Foles fit that offensive scheme, and that helped the line play better.

It is that type of synergy we have not seen with Kirk Cousins and the Vikings offensive line.

Not to mention he had the benefit of Wentz getting him a first round bye, and went into the playoffs with very little film on what the Eagles were going to do with him on offense.

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 7, 2020 12:27:31 GMT -6

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Post by comet52 on Jul 7, 2020 12:27:31 GMT -6

Jul 5, 2020 14:10:02 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Jul 5, 2020 1:56:18 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Kirk has not busted any "myths". Saints game was not the situation that Kirk folds in - needing to come from behind late. That is the toughest test and only the top/elite guys like Mahomes, Brady, Wilson, Manning consistently have a good chance to bring their team to victory in those situations. Kirk and the rest of the 2nd tier guys mostly fail at that test.

What?

And, actually, there are several narratives related to Kirk Cousins that are SEVERELY overblown. If you don't know that, then you're simply not paying attention. The myth-busting comment was more of a joke, but yeah, the false narratives do get a bit old.

Jul 5, 2020 1:56:18 GMT -6 comet52 said:

You can put together a Kirk lowlight reel of his wtf moments in these situations but I'm not going to bother, it's too much fun to watch people come here and torture reality and logic to "prove" Kirk is some great guy.

It's fun? Why does it seem like you're never having fun then? lol.

Prove that he's some great guy? I don't think that has much to do with football. But, yes, by most accounts, he's pretty great.

Jul 5, 2020 1:56:18 GMT -6 comet52 said:

He puts up numbers and does ok but no amount of claiming he's a top 5 guy will make it so. He isn't and unless by some miracle his mental makeup in those situations radically changes (I have no idea what miracle that would be since I can't think of an example of a guy who had the mental flaws Kirk has that somehow altered them and become a HOF-level guy) he will continue to be what he is - a decent qb who needs a great defense and oline and a good amount of luck to ever get a team to hoist a trophy.

Top 5? Yeah, most people don't suggest he's Top 5. He has several statistical categories where he hovers around that area, but I don't see many people actually arguing he's a Top 5 quarterback overall. It's usually Top 10ish. That's more than fair. I think his contract for Top 10ish play is what gets people in an uproar... but we shouldn't let his contract diminish what he is/has to offer.

Jul 5, 2020 1:56:18 GMT -6 comet52 said:

And since Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have shown in the past 6 years that they don't particularly believe a great oline matters while they watch their various qb's get slammed and destroyed on a regular basis, I doubt that the circumstances necessary for Kirk to hoist that trophy are ever going to exist. But keep dreaming and telling us all how great Kirk is because.. stats!

You were probably a big Teddy guy, huh? When everyone was repetitively pointing out that he didn't "have the stats" -- you probably argued intangibles, potential, team chemistry, etc.? You probably never cared that he didn't have the best "stats"? Yeah, me neither, but everyone always told me, "It's about the stats! If he was a good QB, he'd have the stats to show for it!" Okay, and now we have a QB who has the stats, and now it's ... "...but he's not Patrick Mahomes or Russell Wilson."

*hammer*

Also, I'm not sure why you have such an issue with stats. How else do you measure/rank players? How do players earn their contracts? How do they make All-Pro? How do they get into the HOF? Yeah, stats actually do matter... And, in this case, they severely weaken many of the narratives surrounding Cousins. Not all, no -- but several. That's important to note, so we don't have an echo chamber here. How boring would a, "The Vikings suck, the Wilfs suck, Spielman sucks, Zimmer sucks, aaand Cousins sucks" echo chamber be?! Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. I bet Packers forums aren't even that lame!

*govikes*

The usual Funkytown smorgasboard of making crap up to personally attack me:

I was "a big Teddy guy" - wrong
I "never cared that he didn't have the best stats" - wrong
I'm "never having fun" - wrong
I "have such an issue with stats" - wrong
His contract has me (by inference) in an "uproar" - wrong

When I gripe about your pet troll you tell me attack the post not the poster then you delete whatever I have to say even though most of it is not attacking anyone, just pointing out crap content for what it is - this board and it's denizens deserve better is my point. I would think as an owner you'd want the same thing but I guess not. That's your choice but to literally tell someone who strives to contribute good content and finds clickbait offensive to knock it off doesn't make sense to me. But as the guy in prison said, "It's your world boss."

Yes Kirk isn't in the Mahomes/Brady/Wilson category, that's the point. I don't see a point in pushing streams of Kirk stats like they mean something. The inference is that it somehow means he's really a top guy which means oh boy here comes the Lombardi. As I continue to point out, it doesn't. What is the problem with me pointing out that it's a bunch of meaningless stats bullsh*t? It's my opinion here on this opinion forum. Yet you seem to need to attack me personally over it in violation of your own rules. You have a different opinion? Great, tell me all about it. But cut the crap with the "I'm this" and "I'm that." You don't know anything about me and don't even bother to engage/learn because you could care less - I'm just a target for you to attack.

There are stats that matter and there is doing a song and dance to paint some player as more than he really is. Most people can see which one this thread is.

Last Edit: Jul 7, 2020 12:31:18 GMT -6 by comet52

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 7, 2020 12:33:58 GMT -6 via mobile wivikesfan likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Jul 7, 2020 12:33:58 GMT -6

Jul 7, 2020 12:27:31 GMT -6 comet52 said:

The usual Funkytown smorgasboard of making crap up to personally attack me:

I was "a big Teddy guy" - wrong
I "never cared that he didn't have the best stats" - wrong
I'm "never having fun" - wrong
I "have such an issue with stats" - wrong
His contract has me (by inference) in an "uproar" - wrong

When I gripe about your pet troll you tell me attack the post not the poster then you delete whatever I have to say even though most of it is not attacking anyone, just pointing out crap content for what it is - this board and it's denizens deserve better is my point. I would think as an owner you'd want the same thing but I guess not. That's your choice but to literally tell someone who strives to contribute good content and finds clickbait offensive to knock it off doesn't make sense to me. But as the guy in prison said, "It's your world boss."

Yes Kirk isn't in the Mahomes/Brady/Wilson category, that's the point. I don't see a point in pushing streams of Kirk stats like they mean something. The inference is that it somehow means he's really a top guy which means oh boy here comes the Lombardi. As I continue to point out, it doesn't. What is the problem with me pointing out that it's a bunch of meaningless stats bullsh*t? It's my opinion here on this opinion forum. Yet you seem to need to attack me personally over it in violation of your own rules. You have a different opinion? Great, tell me all about it. But cut the crap with the "I'm this" and "I'm that." You don't know anything about me and don't even bother to engage/learn because you could care less - I'm just a target to you to attack.

There are stats that matter and there is doing a song and dance for to paint some player as more than he really is. Most people can see which one this thread is.

So, by responding to your posts, I'm "attacking you"?

Lighten up, Francis. I'm NOT attacking you. It's sad that you keep suggesting it.

You're still stuck on the Spence stuff? When was the last time he made a thread that offended you? I'll make a note of it.

Actually, I am trying to engage with you. And I have in the past. Instead, you'd rather play the victim, talk about Spence, and criticize me/the board.

Care to respond to my previous post instead?

I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between me talking specifically to you/about you ... and referring to the general consensus of the board. Sometimes they're different, but no, it's not "an attack." I'm also sorry you don't understand playful sarcasm. You think I'm being a prick, when I'm actually just having a little fun, trying to engage.

The inference is that it somehow means he's really a top guy which means oh boy here comes the Lombardi.

Actually, no, that's not it at all. Quite the opposite, really. As I've explained several times, it's about keeping things in perspective, seeing the whole picture, this place not being an anti-Cousins echo chamber, etc. I'm not at all suggesting he's some great QB who is going to lead us to a Super Bowl. I've actually never said that or even implied it. Do I think he's capable? Sure. And I've explained that in length with my thoughts about the Mannings, Flacco, Foles, Goff, Garoppolo, etc.

And, as explained in my previous post, there are several narratives related to Kirk that are severely overblown. Sometimes I post stats and articles to prove them to be nonsense, and other times I post things that kind of confirm them. I post a lot of stuff, about a lot of things. And I'm going to continue to do so, because I want this to be a one-stop-shop for our Vikings needs. If you don't appreciate that, then so be it. But some here do...

Last Edit: Jul 7, 2020 18:13:49 GMT -6 by Funkytown: mobile typo

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Kirk Cousins: Under Pressure Jul 7, 2020 13:17:54 GMT -6 via mobile whuisman likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Jul 7, 2020 13:17:54 GMT -6

Jul 5, 2020 18:40:43 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Teddy had all the intangibles that when he eventually developed into the QB he looked like he was becoming, would have been the difference in wins and losses while he also put up great numbers. Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brees and Brady have the intangibles and the stats. That is what you need to win it all. Great stats on top of the intangibles. Without it you can win 10 or 11 games here or there, but you are never going to be able to take the next step without a lot going your way.

No disagreement from me, especially the bolded part. I don't believe you were a member here when all the "it's about the volume stats" discussion related to Teddy took place, but that's where the frustration comes from - the moving of the goalposts/what is needed from a Vikings QB.

Cousins is an empty stat sheet. Great against crap teams we don't necessarily need great against, crap against great ones. He was terrible when pressured when we played the Bears, Packers, KC, and SF, but when he played the likes of Washington, NY, Detroit and Denver, he was fantastic against pressure. Now let me ask you something, does him being good against pressure against bad teams matter in the end? We saw the games, we know what he does when pressured when facing good teams and have read countless articles from fan boys who claim that is why he failed in those games. The pressure narrative is one from the Cousins apologist just as much as the people who would be happier with a different QB.

Wait a minute, if he is actually good against pressure, it must not have been the line and just him having a bad game against GB X 2, Chicago, KC and SF. All this time people have been saying it was the Oline, yet now we know the truth, it is Cousins and it doesn't matter if we improve the line, he will still suck in those types of games.

This was the OP:

5. Kirk Cousins

UNDER PRESSURE: 91.5 passer rating, +3.8% completion rate above expectation, 58.1% completion rate.

Cousins was a stud under pressure in the earliest years of NGS tracking, which helped destroy a narrative of him being average at the absolute best. But thanks to a play-action offense built out of an emphatic rushing attack led by Dalvin Cook, Cousins doesn't face as much pressure as he once did. Even with that considered, he still lands in the top five of most under-pressure metrics. His passer rating under pressure was fifth-best, his completion percentage under pressure was fourth-best and his completion percentage above expectation while pressured was also in the top five. You won't often see Cousins' name mentioned among the Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes of the league, but he has the numbers to back it up.

Are you discrediting the piece as a whole, or just how it relates to Cousins?

I don't believe all/most of his stats come from playing bad teams. But if you're going to suggest that all of the time, are you also holding the same standards to other QBs? When they have positive stats, do you automatically think it's because of their own abilities or is it because they've likely played a lot of bad teams? How deeply do you dive into these things? I'm genuinely curious. Admittedly, I take most of these pieces at face value, because I believe they're using the same criteria for everyone and doing so without biases. The numbers/rankings are what they are. No more, no less. Do we sometimes need to dive in deeper? Sure. But do we always have to assume the worst about Cousins? Probably not.

Last Edit: Jul 7, 2020 13:26:32 GMT -6 by Funkytown