With the Draft Behind Us...

VikingsVictorious
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 13:26:36 GMT -6

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 3, 2024 13:26:36 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 9:54:23 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I wouldn't give up significantly more than 3 firsts if that was truly the cost. However if you could force the Pats to take the 3 first round picks and nothing more to move up I would rather have done that. It's not because of how I feel about landing JJ/Turner where we did nearly as much as it is about how things were reported and what I believe this regime and KOC wanted.

At the end of the day even if Turner is as good as Hunter, if JJ fails this regime likely fails. We need to see some serious progress by 2025 and if that is JJ's first season starting and he is bad it might be time for changes. So knowing that I think we can understand why by many accounts this team was offering 3 firsts for Maye. That is who KOC identified as the most likely of those available to move up for and it would seem there is a big gap given how we waited out the rest and ended with the 5th QB drafted without giving up much extra capital. That is why to me 3 1sts for Maye would be the move even knowing how it ended up. I hate the idea of our new coach not getting the guy he wants, especially after what just happened with the last HC in terms of the QB position. Not that they are the same, just saying it would be nice if for once at the most important position we got that type of guy the coaching staff wants to push in for.

So I am not sure I have Maye drastically better than Mccarthy and I certainly don't hate our draft. However, I would rather have Maye for the 3 picks than what we ended up with if what has been said is true about our offers/attempt to move up. The person most responsible for developing said QB along with the GM etc. seemed to think it was worth that price as well with their jobs on the line. Hopefully they really liked JJ too and this wasn't just a "well let's go get the last possible QB we think has a chance to pan out since the other 4 are gone and we hate Nix".

He wanted Caleb like everybody else. The draft is 99.7% about not getting who you want. I truly believe that KOC is thrilled about getting JJ. IMO McCarthy will be better than Maye and we were so lucky that the Patriots turned down our offer which was those 3FRPs but we were only giving them if they sent a couple of 3rd round picks back.

mngopher35
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 14:34:47 GMT -6

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Post by mngopher35 on May 3, 2024 14:34:47 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 13:26:36 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

May 3, 2024 9:54:23 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I wouldn't give up significantly more than 3 firsts if that was truly the cost. However if you could force the Pats to take the 3 first round picks and nothing more to move up I would rather have done that. It's not because of how I feel about landing JJ/Turner where we did nearly as much as it is about how things were reported and what I believe this regime and KOC wanted.

At the end of the day even if Turner is as good as Hunter, if JJ fails this regime likely fails. We need to see some serious progress by 2025 and if that is JJ's first season starting and he is bad it might be time for changes. So knowing that I think we can understand why by many accounts this team was offering 3 firsts for Maye. That is who KOC identified as the most likely of those available to move up for and it would seem there is a big gap given how we waited out the rest and ended with the 5th QB drafted without giving up much extra capital. That is why to me 3 1sts for Maye would be the move even knowing how it ended up. I hate the idea of our new coach not getting the guy he wants, especially after what just happened with the last HC in terms of the QB position. Not that they are the same, just saying it would be nice if for once at the most important position we got that type of guy the coaching staff wants to push in for.

So I am not sure I have Maye drastically better than Mccarthy and I certainly don't hate our draft. However, I would rather have Maye for the 3 picks than what we ended up with if what has been said is true about our offers/attempt to move up. The person most responsible for developing said QB along with the GM etc. seemed to think it was worth that price as well with their jobs on the line. Hopefully they really liked JJ too and this wasn't just a "well let's go get the last possible QB we think has a chance to pan out since the other 4 are gone and we hate Nix".

He wanted Caleb like everybody else. The draft is 99.7% about not getting who you want. I truly believe that KOC is thrilled about getting JJ. IMO McCarthy will be better than Maye and we were so lucky that the Patriots turned down our offer which was those 3FRPs but we were only giving them if they sent a couple of 3rd round picks back.

I haven't seen anything backing up that take but you could be right who knows. Even if so it doesn't take away from the obvious point that we were willing to give up 3 future firsts for Maye while also willing to risk that JJ would fall while 4 other QB's are taken then using far far less to get him. That's a big gap in value and willingness to make a move for a player which was the point. It seems very obvious that Maye was a key target, no matter how they felt about Caleb. You can really like 2 or even 3 etc. guys but have a big gap between the rest.

We might be lucky they turned down the offer while JJ finally leads us to a SB or we might have a bust while they have their future HOF QB. Nobody knows at this point but what I was pointing out is that I am sick of this team settling at the most important position in the game time and time again. If we were that confident Maye was worth what we offered I would gladly still take him even though I think we still had a solid draft anyways. At the end of the day whether or not we hit on this QB is the most important aspect of this offseason and possibly this regimes future in MN. As I said before even if Turner pans out great, if JJ stinks that's very likely leading to a new regime. Time will tell either way but if we could force the Pats to accept that offer I would do it and roll with the QB we wanted bad.

Last Edit: May 3, 2024 14:36:41 GMT -6 by mngopher35

VikingsVictorious
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 16:03:11 GMT -6 mngopher35 likes this

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 3, 2024 16:03:11 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 14:34:47 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

May 3, 2024 13:26:36 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

He wanted Caleb like everybody else. The draft is 99.7% about not getting who you want. I truly believe that KOC is thrilled about getting JJ. IMO McCarthy will be better than Maye and we were so lucky that the Patriots turned down our offer which was those 3FRPs but we were only giving them if they sent a couple of 3rd round picks back.

I haven't seen anything backing up that take but you could be right who knows. Even if so it doesn't take away from the obvious point that we were willing to give up 3 future firsts for Maye while also willing to risk that JJ would fall while 4 other QB's are taken then using far far less to get him. That's a big gap in value and willingness to make a move for a player which was the point. It seems very obvious that Maye was a key target, no matter how they felt about Caleb. You can really like 2 or even 3 etc. guys but have a big gap between the rest.

We might be lucky they turned down the offer while JJ finally leads us to a SB or we might have a bust while they have their future HOF QB. Nobody knows at this point but what I was pointing out is that I am sick of this team settling at the most important position in the game time and time again. If we were that confident Maye was worth what we offered I would gladly still take him even though I think we still had a solid draft anyways. At the end of the day whether or not we hit on this QB is the most important aspect of this offseason and possibly this regimes future in MN. As I said before even if Turner pans out great, if JJ stinks that's very likely leading to a new regime. Time will tell either way but if we could force the Pats to accept that offer I would do it and roll with the QB we wanted bad.

if JJ stinks and Turner is a hall of famer this draft will have been unsuccessful. I just see very little reason to think JJ will stink.

mngopher35
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 16:17:59 GMT -6 via mobile slapnut19 likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on May 3, 2024 16:17:59 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 16:03:11 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

May 3, 2024 14:34:47 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I haven't seen anything backing up that take but you could be right who knows. Even if so it doesn't take away from the obvious point that we were willing to give up 3 future firsts for Maye while also willing to risk that JJ would fall while 4 other QB's are taken then using far far less to get him. That's a big gap in value and willingness to make a move for a player which was the point. It seems very obvious that Maye was a key target, no matter how they felt about Caleb. You can really like 2 or even 3 etc. guys but have a big gap between the rest.

We might be lucky they turned down the offer while JJ finally leads us to a SB or we might have a bust while they have their future HOF QB. Nobody knows at this point but what I was pointing out is that I am sick of this team settling at the most important position in the game time and time again. If we were that confident Maye was worth what we offered I would gladly still take him even though I think we still had a solid draft anyways. At the end of the day whether or not we hit on this QB is the most important aspect of this offseason and possibly this regimes future in MN. As I said before even if Turner pans out great, if JJ stinks that's very likely leading to a new regime. Time will tell either way but if we could force the Pats to accept that offer I would do it and roll with the QB we wanted bad.

if JJ stinks and Turner is a hall of famer this draft will have been unsuccessful. I just see very little reason to think JJ will stink.

Exactly, even if it seems alright because of Turner for the team and this regime it likely is unsuccessful still if the qb fails. So that’s why I would have been alright with and supported a more all in approach to qb. That’s all I am really saying, the individual players I don’t have enough confidence I watched enough to assess at a high level. So it’s not a maye vs McCarthy thing for me even. I like maye more but that’s off about 1 hour footage from each on “all the plays they were involved in” type film and other random breakdowns totaling a couple hours.. I don’t really judge things off my own perspective of the prospects as much due to that, I try and judge value all around given everything we know from experts, history, trade charts etc more than if they got guys I like from that little analysis.

End of the day I am still happy with our draft. I’m just highlighting that if they were willing to be that aggressive for maye and we could force the pats to accept I would have. That’s how important the qb position is imo and I believe you hire koc with the hope he develops a qbotf so go get him his guy. Even though I liked the draft, I would take maye for a high price if given the option still due to that.

Last Edit: May 3, 2024 16:19:16 GMT -6 by mngopher35

VikingsVictorious
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 16:59:08 GMT -6 Brandon likes this

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 3, 2024 16:59:08 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 16:17:59 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

May 3, 2024 16:03:11 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

if JJ stinks and Turner is a hall of famer this draft will have been unsuccessful. I just see very little reason to think JJ will stink.

Exactly, even if it seems alright because of Turner for the team and this regime it likely is unsuccessful still if the qb fails. So that’s why I would have been alright with and supported a more all in approach to qb. That’s all I am really saying, the individual players I don’t have enough confidence I watched enough to assess at a high level. So it’s not a maye vs McCarthy thing for me even. I like maye more but that’s off about 1 hour footage from each on “all the plays they were involved in” type film and other random breakdowns totaling a couple hours.. I don’t really judge things off my own perspective of the prospects as much due to that, I try and judge value all around given everything we know from experts, history, trade charts etc more than if they got guys I like from that little analysis.

End of the day I am still happy with our draft. I’m just highlighting that if they were willing to be that aggressive for maye and we could force the pats to accept I would have. That’s how important the qb position is imo and I believe you hire koc with the hope he develops a qbotf so go get him his guy. Even though I liked the draft, I would take maye for a high price if given the option still due to that.

I don't think there is much difference in the QBs, but I prefer McCarthy straight up to Maye. NE turning down our offer IMO saved us from making a big mistake. McCarthy, Turner and 2025 1st round pick >>>>Maye.

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 7:46:20 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on May 5, 2024 7:46:20 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 10:35:17 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

May 3, 2024 9:35:01 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

we need to actually see this. I feel like we've been talking about it because it seems so gdamn obvious. But it's just an absolute must this year. Right?

No kidding. Jones is a HUGE upgrade over Mattison... IF he can stay on the field. But we have not fixed the IOL or the KOC problem. I do think we'll fare better in the RZ with Jones on the field, but I do think there's legit reason to worry about our run game, especially as long as KOC is our head coach.

Mattison has been killing our run game for two seasons now, and even if Jones takes a step back, a declining Jones or even just Chandler significantly improves the run game.

Rushing average from weeks 1-9 prior to Chandler being used more in the offense: 3.6 YPA (tied for 7th worst)

Weeks 10-18 with Chandler getting more carries: 4.1 YPA (tied for 17th best)

ocampo82
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 8:35:01 GMT -6 Danchat and Brandon like this

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Post by ocampo82 on May 5, 2024 8:35:01 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 16:59:08 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

I don't think there is much difference in the QBs, but I prefer McCarthy straight up to Maye. NE turning down our offer IMO saved us from making a big mistake. McCarthy, Turner and 2025 1st round pick >>>>Maye.

I wanted Maye, but when the outcome is put that way ^, I am even more pleased with the draft. I have heard many commentators say the Vikes gave up too much for Turner, but Turner probably would be a higher pick in any other draft. Vikes essentially have up two 2nds for a high-caliber pass rusher. It wasn't long ago Saints swapped 1s and traded a future 1 for Davenport.

Turner is in a similar situation as McCarthy in that, he landed in a great spot for his skill set under B Flo--If he was the right pick, he should produce early.

May 5, 2024 7:46:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mattison has been killing our run game for two seasons now, and even if Jones takes a step back, a declining Jones or even just Chandler significantly improves the run game.

Rushing average from weeks 1-9 prior to Chandler being used more in the offense: 3.6 YPA (tied for 7th worst)

Weeks 10-18 with Chandler getting more carries: 4.1 YPA (tied for 17th best)

I don't think any Viking fan thought Mattison was a starting-caliber RB--that move/signing was curious to say the least. To KAM/KOC credit they identified it, and moved on late in the season.

I would like an OL that could get a push and/or create holes. The OL in recent memory is all finesse and light in the pants. To me, when the run game has success it is more based on the defense set-up for playing the pass, or the defense taking a snap off. The interior OL is objectively dog sh**. Even if, by some miracle, Ingram takes 5 gigantic steps in development, Bradberry and Brandel are capped at their current level--which is not good.

diehardtwinsfan
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 12:35:41 GMT -6 skolvikes likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on May 5, 2024 12:35:41 GMT -6

May 5, 2024 7:46:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mattison has been killing our run game for two seasons now, and even if Jones takes a step back, a declining Jones or even just Chandler significantly improves the run game.

As long as Jones stays on the field. Chandler was an improvement, we all agree, but we still weren't great as you pointed out.. Some of that is KOC, and I don't know if that is fixed...and if Jones gets hurt... woof.

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 12:42:05 GMT -6 via mobile skolvikes likes this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on May 5, 2024 12:42:05 GMT -6

The run game was terrible because we had a C and a G that were terrible and couldn’t hold up against DTs. If they upgrade the OL it will make everything better. Aside from that making adjustments to the offense might be necessary.

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 15:26:38 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on May 5, 2024 15:26:38 GMT -6

May 5, 2024 12:42:05 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The run game was terrible because we had a C and a G that were terrible and couldn’t hold up against DTs. If they upgrade the OL it will make everything better. Aside from that making adjustments to the offense might be necessary.

It was terrible because our line is was built to run a different run blocking scheme than what KOC runs, and the runner's strengths don't fit that scheme either. Literally everyone got worse at run blocking once KOC took over. That's not an accident, and trying to plow a guy like Chandler up the middle (while not using that great run blocking TE we signed) when he's much better runner in space leads to a lot of 3rd and longs. That's going to be unfair to any QB. Yes, getting the right people in the long term for the line will help, but I don't think it's a coincidence that our entire line suddenly got worse at run blocking (Risner excluded obviously since he was new and already bad at run blocking).

Jones being all around superior to Mattison will help. I'm not going to argue that, but if the run game is not called to what Jones does well, don't expect a significant improvement. And if Jones gets hurt... well, it's Chandler and a whole lot of nothing.

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 16:31:02 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on May 5, 2024 16:31:02 GMT -6

May 5, 2024 15:26:38 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

May 5, 2024 12:42:05 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The run game was terrible because we had a C and a G that were terrible and couldn’t hold up against DTs. If they upgrade the OL it will make everything better. Aside from that making adjustments to the offense might be necessary.

It was terrible because our line is was built to run a different run blocking scheme than what KOC runs, and the runner's strengths don't fit that scheme either. Literally everyone got worse at run blocking once KOC took over. That's not an accident, and trying to plow a guy like Chandler up the middle (while not using that great run blocking TE we signed) when he's much better runner in space leads to a lot of 3rd and longs. That's going to be unfair to any QB. Yes, getting the right people in the long term for the line will help, but I don't think it's a coincidence that our entire line suddenly got worse at run blocking (Risner excluded obviously since he was new and already bad at run blocking).

Jones being all around superior to Mattison will help. I'm not going to argue that, but if the run game is not called to what Jones does well, don't expect a significant improvement. And if Jones gets hurt... well, it's Chandler and a whole lot of nothing.

Correct. That has been an issue with the Vikings for decades. They keep turning over OCs and blocking schemes to new coaches who don’t use the OL with the same skill sets as the last so they have been perpetually changing talent

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 5, 2024 17:13:35 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands and skolvikes like this

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Post by Danchat on May 5, 2024 17:13:35 GMT -6

May 5, 2024 8:35:01 GMT -6 ocampo82 said:

Vikes essentially have up two 2nds for a high-caliber pass rusher. It wasn't long ago Saints swapped 1s and traded a future 1 for Davenport.

Good catch, and Davenport was taken in a very similar spot in the draft as Turner. I remember thinking when I saw the trade I thought they were moving up for Lamar Jackson... but turns out it was a DE. 2 1sts was too rich for that move-up, two 2nds + 3rd + 4th and change is a better price.

May 5, 2024 8:35:01 GMT -6 ocampo82 said:

To KAM/KOC credit they identified it, and moved on late in the season.

Well, Mattison got injured and they were forced to use Chandler and finally realized he was an effective runner. They acquired Akers to make sure Chandler wouldn't see the field and it took injuries to both to get him out there.