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TheWinterSKOLdier
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 14:24:11 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

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Post by TheWinterSKOLdier on May 2, 2024 14:24:11 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 11:34:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

May 1, 2024 14:23:35 GMT -6 TheWinterSKOLdier said:

I wanted the Vikings to trade up for Maye, and felt that the reported compensation was about right. With that being said, McCarthy was #2 for me, and to get him without sacrificing both 1st rounders or next years was a coup. I really think McCarthy will flourish under KOC, and to be able to shore up the pass rush with Turner is icing on the cake.

I had Maye as #3 on my Big Board with Top 5 QB in the NFL as his ceiling. I'd give up #23 and the '25 1st as well as the incumbent #11 to get him. New England wanted more. Likely because they had the same evaluation on him as I and so many others did. No way was I giving more.

And getting Turner is exactly the medicine I needed to get over losing out on Drake. How many years have I carped all offseason about not knowing where the Vikings were going to fine a 3rd player that could consistently pressure the QB? Now they have 3 Edges (with 2 more in the incubator) and 2 ILBs plus at least 1 Safety that are all able to get pressure, provided Turner pans out.

But it's also the flexibility. Flores can live up Turner or AVG at the LOS and then drop them into coverage. Even Greenard can drop here and there. Wonnum absolutely couldn't be dropped into coverage and Hunter wasn't asked to do it much. There's going to be so many different things that happen from the same looks that QBs and O-Linemen are going to struggle to know who's coming from where.

It's what he did in Miami but just never had the horses to deploy successfully with Davenport being a huge bust of a signing and with the coverage shortcomings of Wonnum. And Hick too. Cashman is much better in coverage.

If the Vikings aren't in a lot of close games early next season it will be because Darnold is throwing picks like a machine.

Well, I couldn't have said it much better myself.

dauntessmallhands
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 14:41:07 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by dauntessmallhands on May 2, 2024 14:41:07 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 11:34:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

May 1, 2024 14:23:35 GMT -6 TheWinterSKOLdier said:

I wanted the Vikings to trade up for Maye, and felt that the reported compensation was about right. With that being said, McCarthy was #2 for me, and to get him without sacrificing both 1st rounders or next years was a coup. I really think McCarthy will flourish under KOC, and to be able to shore up the pass rush with Turner is icing on the cake.

I had Maye as #3 on my Big Board with Top 5 QB in the NFL as his ceiling. I'd give up #23 and the '25 1st as well as the incumbent #11 to get him. New England wanted more. Likely because they had the same evaluation on him as I and so many others did. No way was I giving more.

And getting Turner is exactly the medicine I needed to get over losing out on Drake. How many years have I carped all offseason about not knowing where the Vikings were going to fine a 3rd player that could consistently pressure the QB? Now they have 3 Edges (with 2 more in the incubator) and 2 ILBs plus at least 1 Safety that are all able to get pressure, provided Turner pans out.

But it's also the flexibility. Flores can live up Turner or AVG at the LOS and then drop them into coverage. Even Greenard can drop here and there. Wonnum absolutely couldn't be dropped into coverage and Hunter wasn't asked to do it much. There's going to be so many different things that happen from the same looks that QBs and O-Linemen are going to struggle to know who's coming from where.

It's what he did in Miami but just never had the horses to deploy successfully with Davenport being a huge bust of a signing and with the coverage shortcomings of Wonnum. And Hick too. Cashman is much better in coverage.

If the Vikings aren't in a lot of close games early next season it will be because Darnold is throwing picks like a machine.

I feel like CB depth is way better too which will play into this. Maybe not anyone top shelf but more options to mix and match personnel based on the matchup. Like when murphy was getting torched by Allen.

SiteWolf
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 14:57:55 GMT -6

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Post by SiteWolf on May 2, 2024 14:57:55 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 14:41:07 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

May 2, 2024 11:34:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

I had Maye as #3 on my Big Board with Top 5 QB in the NFL as his ceiling. I'd give up #23 and the '25 1st as well as the incumbent #11 to get him. New England wanted more. Likely because they had the same evaluation on him as I and so many others did. No way was I giving more.

And getting Turner is exactly the medicine I needed to get over losing out on Drake. How many years have I carped all offseason about not knowing where the Vikings were going to fine a 3rd player that could consistently pressure the QB? Now they have 3 Edges (with 2 more in the incubator) and 2 ILBs plus at least 1 Safety that are all able to get pressure, provided Turner pans out.

But it's also the flexibility. Flores can live up Turner or AVG at the LOS and then drop them into coverage. Even Greenard can drop here and there. Wonnum absolutely couldn't be dropped into coverage and Hunter wasn't asked to do it much. There's going to be so many different things that happen from the same looks that QBs and O-Linemen are going to struggle to know who's coming from where.

It's what he did in Miami but just never had the horses to deploy successfully with Davenport being a huge bust of a signing and with the coverage shortcomings of Wonnum. And Hick too. Cashman is much better in coverage.

If the Vikings aren't in a lot of close games early next season it will be because Darnold is throwing picks like a machine.

I feel like CB depth is way better too which will play into this. Maybe not anyone top shelf but more options to mix and match personnel based on the matchup. Like when murphy was getting torched by Allen.

I'm wondering if they might turn Khyree Jackson into something of a hybrid corner/safety and move him around the field...tho he's (currently) on the slight side to be working against NFL TEs

spence Franchise Player Posts: 3,425 Likes: 986	With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 17:00:23 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by spence on May 2, 2024 17:00:23 GMT -6 The Patriots wanted way too much for Maye. JJ is gonna be better anyway!
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 17:36:10 GMT -6 TheWinterSKOLdier likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on May 2, 2024 17:36:10 GMT -6

I see some romanticizing about what this team was in 2023, even when completely healthy, and find it pretty funny that people think we won't be better.

Before any injuries to any significant contributor this team was 1-4. They climbed back to .500 before the starting QB went down and were 14th in scoring percentage, something that is very doable with an improved run game, an improved, stronger, in his 2nd season Addison and an offense that teams will have to learn to adjust too with a new QB.

Defensively they improved at ILBer, OLBer and probably even in the secondary. By far the biggest weakness on that D was the front 5's pass rushing outside of Hunter. Let's take a look at what we added versus what we lost from a pass rushing standpoint:

Lost Hunter and Wonnum, replaced Jones and Phillips (in pass rush situations): 80 + 38 + 32 +21 = 171 pressures

Gained Van Ginkle, Greenard, Turner and Tillery: 53 + 48 + 40 (low estimate for the #2 pass rusher in the draft) + 29 = 170 pressures

Greenard had nearly 200 fewer pass rush attempts than Hunter, and Van Ginkle had nearly 150 fewer than Wonnum, so the fact these numbers are even close means the Vikings improved their pass rush by a lot even if losing Hunter was a big blow.

We are year 3 into KAM and KOC's regime and the talk of competitive rebuild is over. And what is supposed to come after a rebuild? Winning, not another down year. I think the Vikings are at least in the hunt for the playoffs week 18 and the only reason they might not be there is because this division is insanely good.

VikingsVictorious Pro Bowl Posts: 2,254 Likes: 698	With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 18:38:32 GMT -6 spence likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by VikingsVictorious on May 2, 2024 18:38:32 GMT -6 May 2, 2024 17:00:23 GMT -6 spence said: The Patriots wanted way too much for Maye. JJ is gonna be better anyway! That's the way I see it.

VikingsVictorious
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 18:40:11 GMT -6

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 2, 2024 18:40:11 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 17:36:10 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I see some romanticizing about what this team was in 2023, even when completely healthy, and find it pretty funny that people think we won't be better.

Before any injuries to any significant contributor this team was 1-4. They climbed back to .500 before the starting QB went down and were 14th in scoring percentage, something that is very doable with an improved run game, an improved, stronger, in his 2nd season Addison and an offense that teams will have to learn to adjust too with a new QB.

Defensively they improved at ILBer, OLBer and probably even in the secondary. By far the biggest weakness on that D was the front 5's pass rushing outside of Hunter. Let's take a look at what we added versus what we lost from a pass rushing standpoint:

Lost Hunter and Wonnum, replaced Jones and Phillips (in pass rush situations): 80 + 38 + 32 +21 = 171 pressures

Gained Van Ginkle, Greenard, Turner and Tillery: 53 + 48 + 40 (low estimate for the #2 pass rusher in the draft) + 29 = 170 pressures

Greenard had nearly 200 fewer pass rush attempts than Hunter, and Van Ginkle had nearly 150 fewer than Wonnum, so the fact these numbers are even close means the Vikings improved their pass rush by a lot even if losing Hunter was a big blow.

We are year 3 into KAM and KOC's regime and the talk of competitive rebuild is over. And what is supposed to come after a rebuild? Winning, not another down year. I think the Vikings are at least in the hunt for the playoffs week 18 and the only reason they might not be there is because this division is insanely good.

As long as we start Darnold we will not be as good as last year. With McCarthy we could possibly be better.

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -6 kmillard likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on May 2, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 18:40:11 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

May 2, 2024 17:36:10 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I see some romanticizing about what this team was in 2023, even when completely healthy, and find it pretty funny that people think we won't be better.

Before any injuries to any significant contributor this team was 1-4. They climbed back to .500 before the starting QB went down and were 14th in scoring percentage, something that is very doable with an improved run game, an improved, stronger, in his 2nd season Addison and an offense that teams will have to learn to adjust too with a new QB.

Defensively they improved at ILBer, OLBer and probably even in the secondary. By far the biggest weakness on that D was the front 5's pass rushing outside of Hunter. Let's take a look at what we added versus what we lost from a pass rushing standpoint:

Lost Hunter and Wonnum, replaced Jones and Phillips (in pass rush situations): 80 + 38 + 32 +21 = 171 pressures

Gained Van Ginkle, Greenard, Turner and Tillery: 53 + 48 + 40 (low estimate for the #2 pass rusher in the draft) + 29 = 170 pressures

Greenard had nearly 200 fewer pass rush attempts than Hunter, and Van Ginkle had nearly 150 fewer than Wonnum, so the fact these numbers are even close means the Vikings improved their pass rush by a lot even if losing Hunter was a big blow.

We are year 3 into KAM and KOC's regime and the talk of competitive rebuild is over. And what is supposed to come after a rebuild? Winning, not another down year. I think the Vikings are at least in the hunt for the playoffs week 18 and the only reason they might not be there is because this division is insanely good.

As long as we start Darnold we will not be as good as last year. With McCarthy we could possibly be better.

This is what I am talking about with people romanticizing last season.

The offense was 22nd in scoring last season and did not do nearly enough to win football games. With everyone healthy this season (knock on wood) and a much improved run game, I just don't see how they don't do better than 22nd even if Darnold is starting a good number of games. If it isn't, then we won't see Darnold beyond week 4.

VikingsVictorious
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 2, 2024 20:04:51 GMT -6

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 2, 2024 20:04:51 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 2, 2024 18:40:11 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

As long as we start Darnold we will not be as good as last year. With McCarthy we could possibly be better.

This is what I am talking about with people romanticizing last season.

The offense was 22nd in scoring last season and did not do nearly enough to win football games. With everyone healthy this season (knock on wood) and a much improved run game, I just don't see how they don't do better than 22nd even if Darnold is starting a good number of games. If it isn't, then we won't see Darnold beyond week 4.

I'm talking about while Kirk was playing and per National Media he was playing at an MVP level when he got injured. I'm definitely hoping that Darnold isn't playing past week 4.

Last Edit: May 2, 2024 20:06:47 GMT -6 by VikingsVictorious

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 8:50:08 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by whoskmoon on May 3, 2024 8:50:08 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 20:04:51 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

May 2, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

This is what I am talking about with people romanticizing last season.

The offense was 22nd in scoring last season and did not do nearly enough to win football games. With everyone healthy this season (knock on wood) and a much improved run game, I just don't see how they don't do better than 22nd even if Darnold is starting a good number of games. If it isn't, then we won't see Darnold beyond week 4.

I'm talking about while Kirk was playing and per National Media he was playing at an MVP level when he got injured. I'm definitely hoping that Darnold isn't playing past week 4.

The Vikings were 14th in scoring percentage, 16th in ppg and .500 when Kirk went down. He also was not in any sort of MVP conversation nationally. Wasn't even in the top 10 in MVP odds.

dauntessmallhands
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 9:35:01 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan likes this

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Post by dauntessmallhands on May 3, 2024 9:35:01 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

much improved run game

we need to actually see this. I feel like we've been talking about it because it seems so gdamn obvious. But it's just an absolute must this year. Right?

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 9:54:23 GMT -6

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Post by mngopher35 on May 3, 2024 9:54:23 GMT -6

I wouldn't give up significantly more than 3 firsts if that was truly the cost. However if you could force the Pats to take the 3 first round picks and nothing more to move up I would rather have done that. It's not because of how I feel about landing JJ/Turner where we did nearly as much as it is about how things were reported and what I believe this regime and KOC wanted.

At the end of the day even if Turner is as good as Hunter, if JJ fails this regime likely fails. We need to see some serious progress by 2025 and if that is JJ's first season starting and he is bad it might be time for changes. So knowing that I think we can understand why by many accounts this team was offering 3 firsts for Maye. That is who KOC identified as the most likely of those available to move up for and it would seem there is a big gap given how we waited out the rest and ended with the 5th QB drafted without giving up much extra capital. That is why to me 3 1sts for Maye would be the move even knowing how it ended up. I hate the idea of our new coach not getting the guy he wants, especially after what just happened with the last HC in terms of the QB position. Not that they are the same, just saying it would be nice if for once at the most important position we got that type of guy the coaching staff wants to push in for.

So I am not sure I have Maye drastically better than Mccarthy and I certainly don't hate our draft. However, I would rather have Maye for the 3 picks than what we ended up with if what has been said is true about our offers/attempt to move up. The person most responsible for developing said QB along with the GM etc. seemed to think it was worth that price as well with their jobs on the line. Hopefully they really liked JJ too and this wasn't just a "well let's go get the last possible QB we think has a chance to pan out since the other 4 are gone and we hate Nix".

Last Edit: May 3, 2024 9:57:02 GMT -6 by mngopher35

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 10:35:17 GMT -6 skolvikes likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on May 3, 2024 10:35:17 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 9:35:01 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

we need to actually see this. I feel like we've been talking about it because it seems so gdamn obvious. But it's just an absolute must this year. Right?

No kidding. Jones is a HUGE upgrade over Mattison... IF he can stay on the field. But we have not fixed the IOL or the KOC problem. I do think we'll fare better in the RZ with Jones on the field, but I do think there's legit reason to worry about our run game, especially as long as KOC is our head coach.

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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 13:08:49 GMT -6

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Post by Norse on May 3, 2024 13:08:49 GMT -6

May 2, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 2, 2024 18:40:11 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

As long as we start Darnold we will not be as good as last year. With McCarthy we could possibly be better.

This is what I am talking about with people romanticizing last season.

The offense was 22nd in scoring last season and did not do nearly enough to win football games. With everyone healthy this season (knock on wood) and a much improved run game, I just don't see how they don't do better than 22nd even if Darnold is starting a good number of games. If it isn't, then we won't see Darnold beyond week 4.

Turnovers are what actually killed us. And all the Quarterbacks had there fair share.
Also critical penalties hurt some of our drives.
we need to improve on them to be successful.

VikingsVictorious
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With the Draft Behind Us... May 3, 2024 13:21:47 GMT -6

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 3, 2024 13:21:47 GMT -6

May 3, 2024 8:50:08 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 2, 2024 20:04:51 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

I'm talking about while Kirk was playing and per National Media he was playing at an MVP level when he got injured. I'm definitely hoping that Darnold isn't playing past week 4.

The Vikings were 14th in scoring percentage, 16th in ppg and .500 when Kirk went down. He also was not in any sort of MVP conversation nationally. Wasn't even in the top 10 in MVP odds.

You can look for negative ways to spin things, but we were on FIRE at the time Kirk went down. I absolutely heard National Media say Kirk was playing at an MVP level the week we beat SF and during the game against the Pukers.