Good Draft - but the Net Effect...

mngopher35
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 7:29:22 GMT -6 Drank likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on May 9, 2024 7:29:22 GMT -6

May 8, 2024 17:35:20 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Nope. The interior OL can use work and RB but the problem with the team has been on the defense not the offense.

So you would agree that it is a good situation for a QB to come into because there is a lot of support on offense? You also understand that the team isn't set up for immediate success due to other issues? That's exactly what the point was from most on here about a great situation and how it does not mean we will have immediate success lol. It would appear you actually agree with that general idea. If someone is expecting immediate success from a rookie QB on a team that has gone younger but wasn't ready to win even with vet talent... Well that would be the odd position to take. This is a great situation for a QB to develop but the team is not ready for immediate success quite yet. This year will be about the development of a younger roster all around, next year with the extra $ for remaining holes is when we should start expecting some success.

As to the defense being the problem we agree it was a bigger issue. However you can still have success with some of the defenses we have seen over the last 6 years. In fact I broke it down elsewhere but on average we have been very similar to KC in terms of overall defensive ranks over the last 6 seasons. Their success came much more so because of the large gap between our offense and theirs. If you look at the SB over the last 8 seasons the average offense was inside the top 5, something we haven't done once in the last 6 seasons either. We have been much closer to average over that span. So while the defense has been the biggest issue holding us back, we will likely need the offense to also improve too. If we want to consistently compete at the highest level a top level offense is more of a requirement in todays game (one team last 8 years outside the top 10 offensively made the SB and it was Burrow/Chase/Higgins at 11). If JJ becomes elite with the weapons this offense has then we have a real chance to consistently contend. That is going to take a little time though as he will need to develop and get some experience first. We need this offense with the talent it has to hit that elite range for sustained success on top of improving the defense.

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 7:46:34 GMT -6 by mngopher35

PurpleFloyd
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 8:32:53 GMT -6 via mobile Jor-El and skolvikes like this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on May 9, 2024 8:32:53 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 7:29:22 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

May 8, 2024 17:35:20 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Nope. The interior OL can use work and RB but the problem with the team has been on the defense not the offense.

So you would agree that it is a good situation for a QB to come into because there is a lot of support on offense? You also understand that the team isn't set up for immediate success due to other issues? That's exactly what the point was from most on here about a great situation and how it does not mean we will have immediate success lol. It would appear you actually agree with that general idea. If someone is expecting immediate success from a rookie QB on a team that has gone younger but wasn't ready to win even with vet talent... Well that would be the odd position to take. This is a great situation for a QB to develop but the team is not ready for immediate success quite yet. This year will be about the development of a younger roster all around, next year with the extra $ for remaining holes is when we should start expecting some success.

As to the defense being the problem we agree it was a bigger issue. However you can still have success with some of the defenses we have seen over the last 6 years. In fact I broke it down elsewhere but on average we have been very similar to KC in terms of overall defensive ranks over the last 6 seasons. Their success came much more so because of the large gap between our offense and theirs. If you look at the SB over the last 8 seasons the average offense was inside the top 5, something we haven't done once in the last 6 seasons either. We have been much closer to average over that span. So while the defense has been the biggest issue holding us back, we will likely need the offense to also improve too. If we want to consistently compete at the highest level a top level offense is more of a requirement in todays game (one team last 8 years outside the top 10 offensively made the SB and it was Burrow/Chase/Higgins at 11). If JJ becomes elite with the weapons this offense has then we have a real chance to consistently contend. That is going to take a little time though as he will need to develop and get some experience first. We need this offense with the talent it has to hit that elite range for sustained success on top of improving the defense.

It’s funny how the narrative changes though. For 6 years it was all about how Kirk held the team back and a SB wasn’t won because of him and now all of a sudden the narrative is the pieces aren’t in place now that the only thing holding the team back is gone.

The fact of the matter is the Vikings haven’t had the talent or the coaching since 2017(and obviously didn’t have it then) to win a SB. Rosters change, injuries happen. Coaches leave. It’s impossible to say the team will be in a better place in 3 years than it is today because it’s too fluid.

As to the rookie QB- the fans have been wanting a QBOTF for the last few years. The guy who is going to save the franchise. If they got that guy then play him. If he is a franchise QB he will be just as fine this year as next year. If he isn’t then it’s better to find out sooner than later so they can try again.

If you think Darnold is suddenly going to become an all pro and do something here he could never do on another team (acknowledging all the team faults you laid out) then you are dreaming. He is who he is and for the team to have any success it’s going to have to come from JJMac.

mngopher35
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 8:59:25 GMT -6

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Post by mngopher35 on May 9, 2024 8:59:25 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 8:32:53 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

May 9, 2024 7:29:22 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

So you would agree that it is a good situation for a QB to come into because there is a lot of support on offense? You also understand that the team isn't set up for immediate success due to other issues? That's exactly what the point was from most on here about a great situation and how it does not mean we will have immediate success lol. It would appear you actually agree with that general idea. If someone is expecting immediate success from a rookie QB on a team that has gone younger but wasn't ready to win even with vet talent... Well that would be the odd position to take. This is a great situation for a QB to develop but the team is not ready for immediate success quite yet. This year will be about the development of a younger roster all around, next year with the extra $ for remaining holes is when we should start expecting some success.

As to the defense being the problem we agree it was a bigger issue. However you can still have success with some of the defenses we have seen over the last 6 years. In fact I broke it down elsewhere but on average we have been very similar to KC in terms of overall defensive ranks over the last 6 seasons. Their success came much more so because of the large gap between our offense and theirs. If you look at the SB over the last 8 seasons the average offense was inside the top 5, something we haven't done once in the last 6 seasons either. We have been much closer to average over that span. So while the defense has been the biggest issue holding us back, we will likely need the offense to also improve too. If we want to consistently compete at the highest level a top level offense is more of a requirement in todays game (one team last 8 years outside the top 10 offensively made the SB and it was Burrow/Chase/Higgins at 11). If JJ becomes elite with the weapons this offense has then we have a real chance to consistently contend. That is going to take a little time though as he will need to develop and get some experience first. We need this offense with the talent it has to hit that elite range for sustained success on top of improving the defense.

It’s funny how the narrative changes though. For 6 years it was all about how Kirk held the team back and a SB wasn’t won because of him and now all of a sudden the narrative is the pieces aren’t in place now that the only thing holding the team back is gone.

The fact of the matter is the Vikings haven’t had the talent or the coaching since 2017(and obviously didn’t have it then) to win a SB. Rosters change, injuries happen. Coaches leave. It’s impossible to say the team will be in a better place in 3 years than it is today because it’s too fluid.

As to the rookie QB- the fans have been wanting a QBOTF for the last few years. The guy who is going to save the franchise. If they got that guy then play him. If he is a franchise QB he will be just as fine this year as next year. If he isn’t then it’s better to find out sooner than later so they can try again.

If you think Darnold is suddenly going to become an all pro and do something here he could never do on another team (acknowledging all the team faults you laid out) then you are dreaming. He is who he is and for the team to have any success it’s going to have to come from JJMac.

Except that wasn't the narrative for 99% of the fans which has been pointed out before. It's a strawman argument. Every game thread, end of year threads etc. you can go back and look at polls on here. Defense or coaching has largely been the biggest issues to the massive majority. The last time we had great offensive talent with great defense was in 18/19 and there is a bit more blame for Kirk on those seasons but it still wasn't all his fault (coaching for example in 18 many acknowledge as the bigger issue).

The problem with Kirk is he was paid overall at near top of the league $ but he isn't actually an elite QB and the offense was around the 14-15th range on average (from top 10 with Keenum). He didn't help lift us to the next level offensively like many hoped, as I noted KC was able to have tons of success due to an elite offense with similar defenses over the span. That isn't a defense issue and matters in how people view him and the lack of success this team has had. It doesn't mean it's all his fault but it also isn't something most people will ignore.

I think there are certain things you need in place before just playing him but we largely have the setup for him to start early. I am all for him getting out there sooner than later but that doesn't mean immediate success. He needs to learn, gain experience, see the speed of the nfl and adjust. I also never said anything about Darnold being able to lead the team to success. My point was you are someone that has been adamant we have issues outside of the QB position for years but are now pushing success in this manner on a rookie QB/questioning why others won't. They won't because of all the question marks and issues with the full roster along with a rookie needing time to develop and adjust. That's why 2025 is when the window for success is more likely to start to most, if we hit on JJ that is.

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 9:02:50 GMT -6 by mngopher35

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 9:15:07 GMT -6 Danchat and vikingpwr like this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on May 9, 2024 9:15:07 GMT -6

May 8, 2024 19:42:45 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

Exactly. Who's saying he needs development time. Did KOC say that? He's the only person who's opinion on ready or not matters

Besides literally every scouting report on him?

Not to state the obvious, but even Caleb Williams needs to develop. Part of that is fixing bad habits from college. Some of it is learning the play book. Even Peyton Manning needed to develop, so I don't get this line of reasoning. The question is how much?

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 9:29:04 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan and vikingpwr like this

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Post by SiteWolf on May 9, 2024 9:29:04 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 9:15:07 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

May 8, 2024 19:42:45 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

Exactly. Who's saying he needs development time. Did KOC say that? He's the only person who's opinion on ready or not matters

Besides literally every scouting report on him?

Not to state the obvious, but even Caleb Williams needs to develop. Part of that is fixing bad habits from college. Some of it is learning the play book. Even Peyton Manning needed to develop, so I don't get this line of reasoning. The question is how much?

Not just how much, but how much is their team willing to give them while NOT under fire...
The Bears, Commanders, and Patriots all traded away their supposed 'QBOTF' and their only other QB option is someone they really don't prefer starting even temporarily (some more than others). Meanwhile the Vikings signed Darnold...time will tell if he'll hold McCarthy off any longer than Brissett holds off Maye.

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 9:40:11 GMT -6 purplelosers likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on May 9, 2024 9:40:11 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 9:29:04 GMT -6 SiteWolf said:

Not just how much, but how much is their team willing to give them while NOT under fire...
The Bears, Commanders, and Patriots all traded away their supposed 'QBOTF' and their only other QB option is someone they really don't prefer starting even temporarily (some more than others). Meanwhile the Vikings signed Darnold...time will tell if he'll hold McCarthy off any longer than Brissett holds off Maye.

Yeah, I agree. QBs get tossed into the fire way too early way too often. I don't think that's good for their development, especially when they haven't unlearned bad college habits and learned other necessary NFL skills.

I personally don't care if the team starts 0-6, if JJM isn't ready, keep Darnold out there, and I don't buy into the logic that just because he's a 1st rounder that he's ready. Every scouting report made it clear he'd need development time. Give it to him. Last thing I want is for him to suddenly be ready because fans are screaming for him due to bad QB play.

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 9:43:28 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan and vikingpwr like this

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Post by SiteWolf on May 9, 2024 9:43:28 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 9:40:11 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

May 9, 2024 9:29:04 GMT -6 SiteWolf said:

Not just how much, but how much is their team willing to give them while NOT under fire...
The Bears, Commanders, and Patriots all traded away their supposed 'QBOTF' and their only other QB option is someone they really don't prefer starting even temporarily (some more than others). Meanwhile the Vikings signed Darnold...time will tell if he'll hold McCarthy off any longer than Brissett holds off Maye.

Yeah, I agree. QBs get tossed into the fire way too early way too often. I don't think that's good for their development, especially when they haven't unlearned bad college habits and learned other necessary NFL skills.

I personally don't care if the team starts 0-6, if JJM isn't ready, keep Darnold out there, and I don't buy into the logic that just because he's a 1st rounder that he's ready. Every scouting report made it clear he'd need development time. Give it to him. Last thing I want is for him to suddenly be ready because fans are screaming for him due to bad QB play.

I always think back to David Carr. The Texans started him Day 1, he set a record for times sacked behind a horrible OL....and what could have been a very promising career was trashed before it could get started, he was a deer in headlights after that.

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 10:40:08 GMT -6

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Post by Purple Pain on May 9, 2024 10:40:08 GMT -6

CBS Sports - Vikings' Harrison Phillips calls Kirk Cousins' departure a 'huge loss:' Team will need to fill void 'together'

"There's gonna be a huge loss," Phillips said on "NFL Total Access" Wednesday. "Kirk Cousins as a person, as a leader, as a teammate, that's a big void in your locker room. One of the most humble guys that I've ever been around. Servant leader, just a great motivator. He's great. To ask one person to fill that void is probably not probable."

The Vikings will also be without Danielle Hunter and Jordan Hicks, who were both captains. With the multiple exits, Phillips knows players will have to step up and says the team has guys who can do just that.

"So what we're going to do is have a great leadership team, which we've already seen. There's already guys that I've seen these last few seasons being on this roster -- some are captains, some are not captains yet but will be in their careers -- and so we're going to pass that torch off and kind of division of labor," Phillips said. "We're going to all carry that load together, and maybe we can be a better football team for it. Kirk's obviously amazing. I've learned a lot from him and the leadership side of thing, and that's an area I'm trying to step up and improve my game by working on those abilities."

...

Discussing the transition of Darnold as the potential starter, Phillips said, "I think it's pretty easy with the culture that [head coach] Kevin [O'Connell] built here in Minnesota ... I have a ton of confidence in Sam. ... I have full confidence in him that he's going to go out and win as many football games as he's allowed to go win for us."

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 10:40:38 GMT -6 by Purple Pain

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 10:46:00 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on May 9, 2024 10:46:00 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 9:43:28 GMT -6 SiteWolf said:

May 9, 2024 9:40:11 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

Yeah, I agree. QBs get tossed into the fire way too early way too often. I don't think that's good for their development, especially when they haven't unlearned bad college habits and learned other necessary NFL skills.

I personally don't care if the team starts 0-6, if JJM isn't ready, keep Darnold out there, and I don't buy into the logic that just because he's a 1st rounder that he's ready. Every scouting report made it clear he'd need development time. Give it to him. Last thing I want is for him to suddenly be ready because fans are screaming for him due to bad QB play.

I always think back to David Carr. The Texans started him Day 1, he set a record for times sacked behind a horrible OL....and what could have been a very promising career was trashed before it could get started, he was a deer in headlights after that.

Do you remember his nickname "The Human Bruise"?

VikingsVictorious
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 11:14:21 GMT -6

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 9, 2024 11:14:21 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 9:15:07 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

May 8, 2024 19:42:45 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

Exactly. Who's saying he needs development time. Did KOC say that? He's the only person who's opinion on ready or not matters

Besides literally every scouting report on him?

Not to state the obvious, but even Caleb Williams needs to develop. Part of that is fixing bad habits from college. Some of it is learning the play book. Even Peyton Manning needed to develop, so I don't get this line of reasoning. The question is how much?

I suppose LeBron James needs to develop. You can always work on and improve. I've watched many analysts talk about him that think he will be ready week 1 so not literally every scouting report. I don't think JJ needs to go through much development before getting in games and being in games IMO is the best place for him to develop.

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 11:17:12 GMT -6 by VikingsVictorious

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 11:45:15 GMT -6 Drank and purplelosers like this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on May 9, 2024 11:45:15 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 11:14:21 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

I suppose LeBron James needs to develop. You can always work on and improve. I've watched many analysts talk about him that think he will be ready week 1 so not literally every scouting report. I don't think JJ needs to go through much development before getting in games and being in games IMO is the best place for him to develop.

I would be curious who, because all the pre-draft scouting reports said he'd need a red shirt season. That doesn't magically change coming to MN. The kid could be Einstein, it doesn't change the fact that Harbaugh didn't use him that much and he's going to have to spend time developing. The last thing I want to appease impatient fans and throw him out there before he's ready. Once a QB is seeing ghosts, you can't undo that...and if the good habits aren't ingrained, they tend not to get learned when tossed into the fire too soon.

VikingsVictorious
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 11:56:57 GMT -6 Brandon likes this

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Post by VikingsVictorious on May 9, 2024 11:56:57 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 11:45:15 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

May 9, 2024 11:14:21 GMT -6 VikingsVictorious said:

I suppose LeBron James needs to develop. You can always work on and improve. I've watched many analysts talk about him that think he will be ready week 1 so not literally every scouting report. I don't think JJ needs to go through much development before getting in games and being in games IMO is the best place for him to develop.

I would be curious who, because all the pre-draft scouting reports said he'd need a red shirt season. That doesn't magically change coming to MN. The kid could be Einstein, it doesn't change the fact that Harbaugh didn't use him that much and he's going to have to spend time developing. The last thing I want to appease impatient fans and throw him out there before he's ready. Once a QB is seeing ghosts, you can't undo that...and if the good habits aren't ingrained, they tend not to get learned when tossed into the fire too soon.

Once again you go with the word all the ..... Some do. Many do not. I've checked out everybody who's come on YouTube. That's where I get my info from and all the best known people are on YouTube. The following all believe he's ready to play now and there are many more. No red shirt.

Joel Klatt

John Beck

Chris Simms

Chase Daniel

Thor Nystrom

Housh

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 13:09:54 GMT -6 by VikingsVictorious

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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 13:31:03 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan, skolvikes, and 1 more like this

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Post by Jor-El on May 9, 2024 13:31:03 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 8:32:53 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The fact of the matter is the Vikings haven’t had the talent or the coaching since 2017(and obviously didn’t have it then) to win a SB. Rosters change, injuries happen. Coaches leave. It’s impossible to say the team will be in a better place in 3 years than it is today because it’s too fluid.

I would argue they haven't had SB talent and coaching since 2009. But this really is the core issue around this team and the McCarthy debate: are they actually improving their overall talent? Some say the Vikings are a great spot for McCarthy, maybe immediately, but what is it based on? I think it's almost completely about having Justin Jefferson, plus some esteem for KOC which is IMO yet to be proved. We have a great pair of OTs and we have Jefferson. But all of that was in place in 2023 so if this was an ideal situation for a QB, Cousins would have done better than 3-4, and even Hall, Mullens, or Dobbs would have won more games.

We're back at a debate from before the draft: does a team need talent around a QB, or do certain QBs somehow "elevate the talent around them"? If the latter is true, it shouldn't matter if we have an ideal situation, because JJ McCarthy will work his magic and turn Jalen Nailor into Randy Moss and Garrett Bradbury into Matt Birk and Ty Chandler into Robert Smith.

Drank
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 14:05:26 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Drank on May 9, 2024 14:05:26 GMT -6

May 9, 2024 13:31:03 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

May 9, 2024 8:32:53 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The fact of the matter is the Vikings haven’t had the talent or the coaching since 2017(and obviously didn’t have it then) to win a SB. Rosters change, injuries happen. Coaches leave. It’s impossible to say the team will be in a better place in 3 years than it is today because it’s too fluid.

I would argue they haven't had SB talent and coaching since 2009. But this really is the core issue around this team and the McCarthy debate: are they actually improving their overall talent? Some say the Vikings are a great spot for McCarthy, maybe immediately, but what is it based on? I think it's almost completely about having Justin Jefferson, plus some esteem for KOC which is IMO yet to be proved. We have a great pair of OTs and we have Jefferson. But all of that was in place in 2023 so if this was an ideal situation for a QB, Cousins would have done better than 3-4, and even Hall, Mullens, or Dobbs would have won more games.

We're back at a debate from before the draft: does a team need talent around a QB, or do certain QBs somehow "elevate the talent around them"? If the latter is true, it shouldn't matter if we have an ideal situation, because JJ McCarthy will work his magic and turn Jalen Nailor into Randy Moss and Garrett Bradbury into Matt Birk and Ty Chandler into Robert Smith.

How can he turn Bradbury into Birk? Unless he God impossible. He has to be able to block the guy in front of him that’s a him problem not nobody else’s. He can’t magically make Bustfairy block nobody Jor.

When Mahomes line was hurt he went to the Super Bowl in Tampa to kick 3 FGs true story.

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 14:08:34 GMT -6 by Drank

Drank
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Good Draft - but the Net Effect... May 9, 2024 14:21:23 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Drank on May 9, 2024 14:21:23 GMT -6

Mahomes didn’t make sorry Scantling, Hardman or Toney Moss neither. It’s you find someone else capable of rising up in big moments.

There has been one guy even remotely a Moss type ever and his name is Tyreek Hill the best big play Wr since Moss. He was already cold when Mahomes got there and even making Tua look better. Don’t nobody make a star a star. A true star all weather and cold regardless. If you need somebody to make you cold you a scheme guy and not truly cold.

Like Bron said you don’t let me get 40 I take 40 points rather you want me to or not. Moss was getting his when he felt like getting it and it usually took a village to even slow him down when it was a prime time game and he felt like going off.

Last Edit: May 9, 2024 14:25:47 GMT -6 by Drank