This won't be an easy fix

slapnut19
Hall of Fame Nominee

Posts: 9,415
Likes: 3,016
Member is Online

This won't be an easy fix Oct 16, 2023 13:23:45 GMT -6 via mobile mngopher35 likes this

Quote

Post by slapnut19 on Oct 16, 2023 13:23:45 GMT -6

Oct 16, 2023 12:43:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Of course you can rebuild and stay competitive at the same time. What a Sith-like way of thinking in absolutes. The Chiefs did it.

And guess what? They're literally doing it again. Dynasties don't have all the same players during their reign. Kansas City had a Defense that had some promising youths and a lot of veterans when they started their run. A pretty deep WR room. A fairly set O-Line.

This year's Team is built largely around 5 guys on Defense that contributed heavily as Rookies last year. They've rebuilt the entire Offensive Line and this is the 3rd iteration of their starting Offensive Tackle situation since their first Superbowl appearance. The WR Room isn't old enough to drink beer.

Good Teams are constantly losing good players. Their good, but usually not great, Free Agents hit the market and get paid like they're great players. This happens every single offseason.

Those Teams remain good because of three things: a true Franchise QB, quality Drafting and Free Agent acquisitions and excellent Coaching Staffs.

Minnesota doesn't and hasn't had that true Franchise QB that can elevate everyone around him. They haven't drafted well on the Defensive side of the ball in years. They haven't, and continue to not have excellent Coaching.

The Vikings are rebuilding every year. Teams like the Chiefs and 9ers weren't built on Top 5 Draft Picks. Teams that have been drafting in the Top 5 for the better part of the last decade still aren't legit powerhouses yet. The Jets, Browns and Lions still don't have a legitimate difference maker at QB or proven Coaching.

The fans on this site are conflating Building a sustainable competitor with rebuilding via tanking. You work to build a sustainable competitor every year. But it starts with the QB, which Minnesota hasn't had in ages. Then you see if they actually have good Coaching. All the while you are working to build sustainability everywhere else.

So far, the New Regime hasn't been given the option to get their own QB. So it's harder to judge the Coaching. But they've inarguably not built sustainability everywhere else on the Roster. The O-Line is coming around, but it was largely inherited. The D-Line stinks besides Hunter. They can't retain Hunter because the previous Regime burnt bridges with him. The Corners are bad. The Safeties and ILBs seem set. The WRs and TEs are set.

So there are plenty of building blocks for a Rookie QB on Offense aside from Kevin's awful playcalling. But the D-Line and Corners, the most important part of the Defense, are bad. Compromising the Units that are currently good to address what is bad is dumb. I'd resign Hunter in a heartbeat but not for Top 5 Edge money with a massive guaranteed amount. He's missed too many games. And I'm sure he asked for the moon after getting subpar deals from the previous Regime.

Clearing out Cap Space is big. The rebuild was well under way when all those veterans and their dead cap hits were let go. It will continue again this offseason when Kirk and Smith walk. This is where I have a little hope. Great stadium. Best facilities and tons of money can hopefully lead to some marquee Free Agent additions to the Defense. Because I have zero trust in Kwesi to overrule the Coaches and Draft the right guys at the right positions.

As for QBOTF, at least 2 and maybe 4 QBs will emerge from this Draft Class as guys you can build around. It would be nice if the Vikings tanked their way into the Top Two but the Team has too much talent on Offense and too good of a Coach on Defense. And Mahomes, Allen, etc. weren't picked in the Top 5.

The rebuild is and has been going on for a while now. Minnesota isn't any closer because of the QB and because they can't draft defenders worth a sh*t. Tanking isn't going to change either of those truths.

49ers may not be built on top 5 picks but they did get Bosa at pick #2 as well as 3 other top ten picks between 2016-2019. To act like being bad didn't contribute to their current success is a little misleading

mngopher35
Veteran

Posts: 1,227
Likes: 1,130

This won't be an easy fix Oct 16, 2023 13:41:48 GMT -6

Quote

Post by mngopher35 on Oct 16, 2023 13:41:48 GMT -6

Oct 16, 2023 12:43:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Of course you can rebuild and stay competitive at the same time. What a Sith-like way of thinking in absolutes. The Chiefs did it.

And guess what? They're literally doing it again. Dynasties don't have all the same players during their reign. Kansas City had a Defense that had some promising youths and a lot of veterans when they started their run. A pretty deep WR room. A fairly set O-Line.

This year's Team is built largely around 5 guys on Defense that contributed heavily as Rookies last year. They've rebuilt the entire Offensive Line and this is the 3rd iteration of their starting Offensive Tackle situation since their first Superbowl appearance. The WR Room isn't old enough to drink beer.

Good Teams are constantly losing good players. Their good, but usually not great, Free Agents hit the market and get paid like they're great players. This happens every single offseason.

Those Teams remain good because of three things: a true Franchise QB, quality Drafting and Free Agent acquisitions and excellent Coaching Staffs.

Minnesota doesn't and hasn't had that true Franchise QB that can elevate everyone around him. They haven't drafted well on the Defensive side of the ball in years. They haven't, and continue to not have excellent Coaching.

The Vikings are rebuilding every year. Teams like the Chiefs and 9ers weren't built on Top 5 Draft Picks. Teams that have been drafting in the Top 5 for the better part of the last decade still aren't legit powerhouses yet. The Jets, Browns and Lions still don't have a legitimate difference maker at QB or proven Coaching.

The fans on this site are conflating Building a sustainable competitor with rebuilding via tanking. You work to build a sustainable competitor every year. But it starts with the QB, which Minnesota hasn't had in ages. Then you see if they actually have good Coaching. All the while you are working to build sustainability everywhere else.

So far, the New Regime hasn't been given the option to get their own QB. So it's harder to judge the Coaching. But they've inarguably not built sustainability everywhere else on the Roster. The O-Line is coming around, but it was largely inherited. The D-Line stinks besides Hunter. They can't retain Hunter because the previous Regime burnt bridges with him. The Corners are bad. The Safeties and ILBs seem set. The WRs and TEs are set.

So there are plenty of building blocks for a Rookie QB on Offense aside from Kevin's awful playcalling. But the D-Line and Corners, the most important part of the Defense, are bad. Compromising the Units that are currently good to address what is bad is dumb. I'd resign Hunter in a heartbeat but not for Top 5 Edge money with a massive guaranteed amount. He's missed too many games. And I'm sure he asked for the moon after getting subpar deals from the previous Regime.

Clearing out Cap Space is big. The rebuild was well under way when all those veterans and their dead cap hits were let go. It will continue again this offseason when Kirk and Smith walk. This is where I have a little hope. Great stadium. Best facilities and tons of money can hopefully lead to some marquee Free Agent additions to the Defense. Because I have zero trust in Kwesi to overrule the Coaches and Draft the right guys at the right positions.

As for QBOTF, at least 2 and maybe 4 QBs will emerge from this Draft Class as guys you can build around. It would be nice if the Vikings tanked their way into the Top Two but the Team has too much talent on Offense and too good of a Coach on Defense. And Mahomes, Allen, etc. weren't picked in the Top 5.

The rebuild is and has been going on for a while now. Minnesota isn't any closer because of the QB and because they can't draft defenders worth a sh*t. Tanking isn't going to change either of those truths.

The Chiefs are not the same situation, they had a team already built to win in place when that happened. Then they added arguably one of the best QB's in the NFL to that type of situation. They were 23-9 with back to back playoff appearances (and one playoff win in those two seasons) before drafting Mahomes. They were already a competitive team that had a QB that was holding the rest of the roster back. While we don't have a game changing QB our situation is much different in that we don't have the same level of talented roster where we could win that many games with an Alex Smith. As for the 49ers they actually did have a very down stretch of seasons leading to a high pick like Bosa (among other high picks).

You make some solid points in that of course you need to draft well and clearing out cap is important. It also helps when you are ahead of the game in terms of draft capital and cap space for that reason which we haven't been due to our lack of a clear long term plan. We just started clearing the cap, as of now 2025 is the earliest we will be mostly removed from that issue. We have yet to start accumulating extra picks to build up the roster and part of that is likely hanging on to vets too long to stay "competitive".

That's the issue, we aren't remotely like that Chiefs team that was so talented they lifted a mediocre QB to 23-9 and a playoff win. We can't expect to just take the same approach as they did and get the same results (especially since we are unlikely to land the next Mahomes in the same way). We need to have an actual plan in place that allows us to accumulate more picks, fully clear the cap and think more about building up the roster overall.

Last Edit: Oct 16, 2023 13:49:23 GMT -6 by mngopher35

FSUVike
Franchise Player

Posts: 3,196
Likes: 4,939
Member is Online

This won't be an easy fix Oct 16, 2023 15:07:23 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown likes this

Quote

Post by FSUVike on Oct 16, 2023 15:07:23 GMT -6

How many of those Top 10 Draft Picks the 9ers had are part of this current 9ers run of being consistently competitive besides Bosa? The fact is that they've hit time and time again in other Rounds.

As for the Chiefs being ahead of Minnesota when they got Mahomes I disagree. They weren't good on Defense. Their Offensive Line was average and became bad. What they had was Andy Reid and a great GM, something the Vikings clearly don't have.

While KC made the playoffs more consistently than the Cousins Era Vikings they were losing in the first round. Time and time again. It was actually a big thing here with fans pointing to Reid losing in the NFCCG over and over again with the Eagles as evidence he couldn't take them over the hump.

But that's all besides the point. This Team isn't going to tank. And tanking is no guarantee of turning it around in and of itself.

mngopher35
Veteran

Posts: 1,227
Likes: 1,130

This won't be an easy fix Oct 16, 2023 15:48:56 GMT -6

Quote

Post by mngopher35 on Oct 16, 2023 15:48:56 GMT -6

Oct 16, 2023 15:07:23 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

How many of those Top 10 Draft Picks the 9ers had are part of this current 9ers run of being consistently competitive besides Bosa? The fact is that they've hit time and time again in other Rounds.

As for the Chiefs being ahead of Minnesota when they got Mahomes I disagree. They weren't good on Defense. Their Offensive Line was average and became bad. What they had was Andy Reid and a great GM, something the Vikings clearly don't have.

While KC made the playoffs more consistently than the Cousins Era Vikings they were losing in the first round. Time and time again. It was actually a big thing here with fans pointing to Reid losing in the NFCCG over and over again with the Eagles as evidence he couldn't take them over the hump.

But that's all besides the point. This Team isn't going to tank. And tanking is no guarantee of turning it around in and of itself.

I'm not sure but Bosa alone is an elite talent and proof that it can be advantageous for a franchise. I don't think anyone would disagree that they have hit in other rounds nor do I think anyone believes that shouldn't also be our goal. The point has been they did it by rebuilding as an organization and that included down years accumulating assets/resetting the cap.

You can disagree all you want but I posted the reality of what they were accomplishing. Their defense was 3rd and 7th in points against both of those seasons, what do you mean not good? Lol that was the strength of their team at the time. The reason they were losing in the playoffs is because they had a game manager at QB that couldn't lift the roster higher or come through in big moments. I agree the narrative on Reid was that he couldn't take a team over the hump. He has only made it over that hump after getting arguably the best QB in the NFL. Interesting how it wasn't until the coach had the right talent in place (including GOAT level QB) that the narrative on him changed. Let's take a look at how Bill Belichick is doing without his all time great QB while we are at it too. The key to winning is having the right talent in place.

I agree we aren't going to tank nor is it a guarantee of anything. The issue that people are getting at is the Wilfs competitive mandate and "super competative" nonsense that is hurting the franchise. It is hurting us in terms of rebuilding this roster and accumulating assets (including resetting the cap). The earliest we will be out of cap issues due to this route is 2025, the 4th season of the new regime lol. We need to be focused on the future and building up not wasting resources to fake compete. Missing playoffs back to back years after a run had clearly fizzled out, forcing the new regime to run it back anyways, half selling the old vets to rebuild while keeping other key ones for a single year to "compete", then have a bunch of dead cap and didn't really get much value out of any of those vets for year 3. There isn't an actual example of anything like this working out for an NFL team that I can think of. It just doesn't make much sense at all.

Last Edit: Oct 16, 2023 17:22:53 GMT -6 by mngopher35

ratsalad
All Pro Elite

Posts: 2,985
Likes: 1,480

This won't be an easy fix Oct 17, 2023 14:04:06 GMT -6 via mobile

Quote

Post by ratsalad on Oct 17, 2023 14:04:06 GMT -6

Oct 16, 2023 7:27:51 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

That's a pretty short sighted take. You have to do it right. That starts with cleaning up Rick's mess and building a team from the ground up. I don't know if KAM/KOC are the right people to do it. I definitely have my doubts there and they grow with each season, but I don't think it's as simple as saying that it should be done in 2 years. The cap situation alone was pretty messy. For all his warts, Kwessi is doing a pretty good job cleaning that up.

Just look at Cincinnati. Get the right draft, go to the Super Bowl. It falls on the management... don't make excuses for them. 49ers were a tire fire at one point and now they are contenders every year, despite changes at QB. Where's the excuse there? Just get it done.

ratsalad
All Pro Elite

Posts: 2,985
Likes: 1,480

This won't be an easy fix Oct 17, 2023 14:06:40 GMT -6 via mobile

Quote

Post by ratsalad on Oct 17, 2023 14:06:40 GMT -6

Oct 16, 2023 9:03:13 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

Oct 16, 2023 8:36:46 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I would agree with you here, except there are multiple off-season plans leading into the 2022 season that did a much better job moving on from the cap hell Spielman put us in than what Kwesi actually did. That is not a good look for Kwesi, that a bunch of posters on a message board (even if the posters here are much smarter than the average fan) had us in a better spot 2 years in than he got us.

I know the theory is that the Wilfs didn't let him make those moves, but I question why he was allowed to do that after a 13 win season but not an 8 win one if that was the case?

There were reports that’s what the players had asked ownership is to run it back with a different coach. I think Kendrick’s even spoke about how it’s rare to have that communication with ownership too. On top of that they were talking about being super competitive before they even made the hires.

I think all of that is a pretty clear sign ownership gave the new regime a mandate to essentially run it back year 1. I think the fact this new regime was able to realize that success was a fluke and still move on from aging vets is actually a positive. Ownership has seemingly been the main issue in terms of having a long term plan with how they want things run (by their own words) and there were reports they stopped Rick from going for a qbotf too before the firing.

Well then that was their first mistake... coaches coach, players play. Seems maybe the Wilfs are a little too accommodating. Kind of strange but clearly the players overestimated their ability

ratsalad
All Pro Elite

Posts: 2,985
Likes: 1,480

This won't be an easy fix Oct 17, 2023 14:10:05 GMT -6 via mobile

Quote

Post by ratsalad on Oct 17, 2023 14:10:05 GMT -6

Oct 16, 2023 12:43:13 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Of course you can rebuild and stay competitive at the same time. What a Sith-like way of thinking in absolutes. The Chiefs did it.

And guess what? They're literally doing it again. Dynasties don't have all the same players during their reign. Kansas City had a Defense that had some promising youths and a lot of veterans when they started their run. A pretty deep WR room. A fairly set O-Line.

This year's Team is built largely around 5 guys on Defense that contributed heavily as Rookies last year. They've rebuilt the entire Offensive Line and this is the 3rd iteration of their starting Offensive Tackle situation since their first Superbowl appearance. The WR Room isn't old enough to drink beer.

Good Teams are constantly losing good players. Their good, but usually not great, Free Agents hit the market and get paid like they're great players. This happens every single offseason.

Those Teams remain good because of three things: a true Franchise QB, quality Drafting and Free Agent acquisitions and excellent Coaching Staffs.

Minnesota doesn't and hasn't had that true Franchise QB that can elevate everyone around him. They haven't drafted well on the Defensive side of the ball in years. They haven't, and continue to not have excellent Coaching.

The Vikings are rebuilding every year. Teams like the Chiefs and 9ers weren't built on Top 5 Draft Picks. Teams that have been drafting in the Top 5 for the better part of the last decade still aren't legit powerhouses yet. The Jets, Browns and Lions still don't have a legitimate difference maker at QB or proven Coaching.

The fans on this site are conflating Building a sustainable competitor with rebuilding via tanking. You work to build a sustainable competitor every year. But it starts with the QB, which Minnesota hasn't had in ages. Then you see if they actually have good Coaching. All the while you are working to build sustainability everywhere else.

So far, the New Regime hasn't been given the option to get their own QB. So it's harder to judge the Coaching. But they've inarguably not built sustainability everywhere else on the Roster. The O-Line is coming around, but it was largely inherited. The D-Line stinks besides Hunter. They can't retain Hunter because the previous Regime burnt bridges with him. The Corners are bad. The Safeties and ILBs seem set. The WRs and TEs are set.

So there are plenty of building blocks for a Rookie QB on Offense aside from Kevin's awful playcalling. But the D-Line and Corners, the most important part of the Defense, are bad. Compromising the Units that are currently good to address what is bad is dumb. I'd resign Hunter in a heartbeat but not for Top 5 Edge money with a massive guaranteed amount. He's missed too many games. And I'm sure he asked for the moon after getting subpar deals from the previous Regime.

Clearing out Cap Space is big. The rebuild was well under way when all those veterans and their dead cap hits were let go. It will continue again this offseason when Kirk and Smith walk. This is where I have a little hope. Great stadium. Best facilities and tons of money can hopefully lead to some marquee Free Agent additions to the Defense. Because I have zero trust in Kwesi to overrule the Coaches and Draft the right guys at the right positions.

As for QBOTF, at least 2 and maybe 4 QBs will emerge from this Draft Class as guys you can build around. It would be nice if the Vikings tanked their way into the Top Two but the Team has too much talent on Offense and too good of a Coach on Defense. And Mahomes, Allen, etc. weren't picked in the Top 5.

The rebuild is and has been going on for a while now. Minnesota isn't any closer because of the QB and because they can't draft defenders worth a sh*t. Tanking isn't going to change either of those truths.

.......

The Chiefs have a Super Bowl MVP, NFL MVP, 2X Super Bowl winner at QB. I wouldn't point to them as the example bud

Purple Pain
Hall of Fame Nominee

Posts: 8,733
Likes: 2,877

This won't be an easy fix Oct 20, 2023 10:20:32 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Purple Pain on Oct 20, 2023 10:20:32 GMT -6

Love that this fights back against some of the ownership mandate takes.

Purple Insider Mailbag:

Kip…. Matthew, when do you think the team starts hitting the panic button? Does it take a sit down intervention with the Wilfs and everyone reads them a personal letter saying tear it down or hey we can trade up for a QB and build around him? What would it take ?

It’s always interesting to me when I’m asked about the Wilfs holding back the rebuild because they didn’t force the front office to keep a bunch of star players who were under contract, including Adam Thielen, Eric Kendricks, Za’Darius Smith and Dalvin Cook. If they wanted nothing but competitiveness and no sense of a rebuild at all then those players would still be here. Based on the offseason, I would tend to believe that they would be OK with trading Danielle Hunter if the Vikings are sitting at 2-5 or 2-6. It gets more complicated if they are 3-5 or 4-4 because of the upcoming schedule and the wide open NFC. We have to keep in mind that the team that drafted No. 1 overall last year finished with seven wins and then traded up and that there’s a whole list of QBs who were not No. 1 overall who are currently leading very good teams right now. That isn’t to say that a high draft pick isn’t better, it’s just that the franchise is not doomed to never have a franchise QB if they go 7-10 or 8-9.

Marv… It was reported at the time he signed that Kwesi was signing a 4 year contract. If that is correct, that’s a pretty short time line, especially if he cuts Kirk loose at the end of this year and has to bring in a new QB for his year #3. To what extent, if any, do you think those time and contract issues impact the decisions Kwesi has made and will make in the next several months?

The Vikings do not have to have their roster rebuild completed and the team en route to win the Super Bowl by Year 3 in order for Kwesi Adofo-Mensah to get a contract extension. The qualification is likely more along the lines of the franchise’s operation being stable underneath his leadership and the overall direction having enough promise to believe they can get there. If they draft a quarterback and look like they’re a team on the rise in 2024 with defensive improvement, JJ signed long term and the players still ranking the team at the top of the NFLPA survey, then the Wilfs should happily extend him even if the rebuild isn’t fully completed yet. If they have botched the roster left and right and there’s a bunch of dysfunction within the building, then it puts him under the gun.

@tannn_The_Man mailbag question for you. The more we go down this Kwesi road the more we learn about him. I think we have seen him make the necessary changes but he doesn’t get drastic with it. So talk about a non-drastic QB situation next year.

Moving on from 18 combined Pro Bowls from a 13-win team is drastic, man. I cannot emphasize enough how few GMs would have done that in the past. Maybe someone has time to look at all the previous teams who won 13 games because I can’t think of a single one that went into a rebuild mode rather than running it back (and often failing). It was a slow process so maybe it didn’t seem in the moment as bold as it actually was. And, by the way, the Vikings have found some good things this year by doing that. Addison, Pace Jr., Evans, Bynum, Metellus…all given opportunities because they let older guys go.

Is it drastic to let Kirk Cousins go and draft a new QB if they make the playoffs once in six years? That seems like the same thing the Chargers did with Philip Rivers late in his career or Giants with Eli to Daniel Jones or the Smith-to-Mahomes thing or Tyrod Taylor to Josh Allen or Flacco to Lamar Jackson.

The most conservative thing they could do would be to re-sign Cousins or not draft a QB and get someone on the trade or free agent market. But I can’t justify either of those things based on everything else they have done recently.

Ben… Do you think the 2024 draft class will shape the future of the franchise??

That would be the assumption right now. If they draft a QB this year, that decision will make or break the KAM/KOC era. That’s how it always goes for a team that picks a quarterback. But everything shapes the future. If they stick with Cousins or trade for somebody else or sign Tom Brady, there’s always going to be ripple effects. They have to decide which decision gives them the best chance for it to ripple into a Super Bowl contender.

comet52
Hall of Fame Candidate

Posts: 7,033
Likes: 8,631

This won't be an easy fix Oct 20, 2023 11:40:01 GMT -6

Quote

Post by comet52 on Oct 20, 2023 11:40:01 GMT -6

Oct 20, 2023 10:20:32 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Love that this fights back against some of the ownership mandate takes.

Purple Insider Mailbag:

Kip…. Matthew, when do you think the team starts hitting the panic button? Does it take a sit down intervention with the Wilfs and everyone reads them a personal letter saying tear it down or hey we can trade up for a QB and build around him? What would it take ?

It’s always interesting to me when I’m asked about the Wilfs holding back the rebuild because they didn’t force the front office to keep a bunch of star players who were under contract, including Adam Thielen, Eric Kendricks, Za’Darius Smith and Dalvin Cook. If they wanted nothing but competitiveness and no sense of a rebuild at all then those players would still be here. Based on the offseason, I would tend to believe that they would be OK with trading Danielle Hunter if the Vikings are sitting at 2-5 or 2-6. It gets more complicated if they are 3-5 or 4-4 because of the upcoming schedule and the wide open NFC. We have to keep in mind that the team that drafted No. 1 overall last year finished with seven wins and then traded up and that there’s a whole list of QBs who were not No. 1 overall who are currently leading very good teams right now. That isn’t to say that a high draft pick isn’t better, it’s just that the franchise is not doomed to never have a franchise QB if they go 7-10 or 8-9.

The ownership mandate to run it back was in 2022 as reported by I believe Ben Goessling. Going "oh see, no mandate (in 2023)" isn't some victory for us fans. In fact it's exactly what I said was wrong when KAM/KOC were hired. Why hamstring your new guys with a "super competitive" run it back mandate? Because you really need to screw up their chances of actually succeeding by ramming the team built by the guys you just fired down their throats? How stupid can you be? I guess when your name is Wilf the question answers itself.

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

FSUVike
Franchise Player

Posts: 3,196
Likes: 4,939
Member is Online

This won't be an easy fix Oct 20, 2023 11:51:35 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown, HunterMorrow, and 3 more like this

Quote

Post by FSUVike on Oct 20, 2023 11:51:35 GMT -6

Matthew really hits the nail on the head. A ton of you don't believe this but the full-on rebuild is already happening. Both starting CBs, a starting ILB, a starting IDL, a starting Edge, a starting WR and the starting RB from last year's Playoff Team. Plus the Nickel CB.

Roughly half the Defense considering how often the Slot CB played. RB1 and WR2. And the only guy they seriously wanted to keep out of that entire group was Tomlinson.

With Hunter, Cousins and Smith gone after this season it will be 10 of 22 Starters from a 13-4 Division Champ. How is that not a massive rebuild?

dauntessmallhands
Veteran

Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1,419

This won't be an easy fix Oct 20, 2023 12:53:55 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

Quote

Post by dauntessmallhands on Oct 20, 2023 12:53:55 GMT -6

Oct 20, 2023 11:51:35 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Matthew really hits the nail on the head. A ton of you don't believe this but the full-on rebuild is already happening. Both starting CBs, a starting ILB, a starting IDL, a starting Edge, a starting WR and the starting RB from last year's Playoff Team. Plus the Nickel CB.

Roughly half the Defense considering how often the Slot CB played. RB1 and WR2. And the only guy they seriously wanted to keep out of that entire group was Tomlinson.

With Hunter, Cousins and Smith gone after this season it will be 10 of 22 Starters from a 13-4 Division Champ. How is that not a massive rebuild?

It's absolutely a rebuild in a disguise about as convincing as Bobby Valentine's.

By the end of his third offseason, there might be one player on the roster who KAM inherited that wasn't on a rookie contract at the time. O'Neill. He and Hock are the only two players on the roster you really can't reasonably unwind this next off season.

Whether it's competitive or not, that's a rebuild.

To me, the competitive part comes from making judicious use of cap space to fill holes with somewhat modest contracts that would otherwise be filled by guys who aren't developed or just don't have enough talent to occupy the spot.

The difference would be Cine playing in place of Smith. Roy in there on most snaps. Maybe you don't grab an Oliver but I think you probably still grab guys like Murphy and Harrison Phillips. Also, you probably don't take Addison and likely trade down. You also don't extend Hock likely as well (this is probably the most un-rebuild move of the bunch).

There is something to be said about maintaining a certain atmosphere for the players and coaches. Having 3-4 low single digit win seasons in row is different than one, maybe two of those mixed with a couple 8 or 9 win campaigns. Having a certain culture that projects a certain attitude means something.

At the end of the day though much of whether you're in full tank mode or not depends on who's under center. Kirk is good enough to where they're unlikely to finish with less than 6 wins. Personally, I ready for the team to move on but keeping him and having a reasonable chance to win football games isn't the worst thing in the world.

Danchat
Content Creator

Posts: 19,015

Likes: 16,583

This won't be an easy fix Oct 20, 2023 13:19:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 likes this

Quote

Post by Danchat on Oct 20, 2023 13:19:00 GMT -6

Oct 20, 2023 11:51:35 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Matthew really hits the nail on the head. A ton of you don't believe this but the full-on rebuild is already happening. Both starting CBs, a starting ILB, a starting IDL, a starting Edge, a starting WR and the starting RB from last year's Playoff Team. Plus the Nickel CB.

Roughly half the Defense considering how often the Slot CB played. RB1 and WR2. And the only guy they seriously wanted to keep out of that entire group was Tomlinson.

With Hunter, Cousins and Smith gone after this season it will be 10 of 22 Starters from a 13-4 Division Champ. How is that not a massive rebuild?

I guess it's because how the rebuild has been gradual, as the schedule seems to be:
Year 1: New front office and coaching staff
Year 2: Move on from prior players part 1
Year 3: Move on from prior players part 2

People associate rebuilds with complete teardowns, so I think they interpret "gradual rebuild" as "not a rebuild" or a "retooling". But you're right, this offseason really was part 1 of the personnel rebuild.

dauntessmallhands Veteran Posts: 1,495 Likes: 1,419	This won't be an easy fix Oct 21, 2023 23:08:48 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by dauntessmallhands on Oct 21, 2023 23:08:48 GMT -6 Also, if you go with a complete teardown, I'm not sure you uncover the strengths of Metellus or Bynum. They probably just gut it out with Ed D.

vikingpwr
Living Legend

Posts: 21,382

Likes: 4,600

This won't be an easy fix Oct 23, 2023 11:48:00 GMT -6

Quote

Post by vikingpwr on Oct 23, 2023 11:48:00 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2023 23:08:48 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Also, if you go with a complete teardown, I'm not sure you uncover the strengths of Metellus or Bynum.

They probably just gut it out with Ed D.

Brian Flores has quite a few young players to work with. It will take more than one off season to weed through who he wants and what's the best position for them. Was it me or did Booth finally play some defensive snaps (Bears?)

I'm sure glad we didn't gut it out with Ed Donatell.

Funkytown
Owner

Purple Pain Big Dog

Posts: 67,563

Likes: 31,482
Fan Since: 1998
Member is Online

This won't be an easy fix Oct 23, 2023 14:03:42 GMT -6 via mobile

Quote

Post by Funkytown on Oct 23, 2023 14:03:42 GMT -6

The Vikings’ Abundant Cap Space in 2024 Hovers Above The Current Season

Justin Jefferson is under contract for 2024. Yes, failing to see the extension get done is a misstep, the kind of failure that can cause no shortage of hand wringing. The ongoing best bet, though, is that a monstrous new contract will get done.

The wild thing is that agreeing to a new deal could plausibly give the Vikings more cap space in 2024. Jefferson’s 5th-year option is coming with a cap charge just a touch below $19.75 million. An extension has the potential to shave off close to $15 million off of the total.

Now, I don’t anticipate the GM pushing the 2024 savings to the max, but the point remains: a new Jefferson deal — the one that will cause rejoicing far and wide in the Land of 10,000 Lakes — is likely to give Adofo-Mensah more money to attract talent.

Currently, Over the Cap has the Vikings at a touch below $56 million in cap space for 2024. The Jefferson example, though, underscores an important truth: the roster has all kinds of options when it comes to shaking more money loose.

After all, just a new extension for Jefferson has the potential to push that $56 million beyond $70 million. When’s the last time the Vikings have had so much money to work with? The GM hasn’t been perfect since taking over, but he has been shrewd with how he has managed the budget. His ongoing effort to reshape the roster in his own image is going to reach a climactic moment in 2024.

Maybe the most discouraging part of next year’s budget is that the dead money is very likely to be huge. Danielle Hunter, Kirk Cousins, and Marcus Davenport aren’t under contract for next season. If all three leave for a new team, the Vikings will have to carry a dead money charge a touch beyond $50 million. And, let’s not forget, there’s going to be other sources of dead money through the various cuts and transactions that inevitably arrive.

Seeing the Vikings sail past $60 million in dead money won’t be surprising.

The Vikings can avoid this fate by keeping their talented players. Apart from Davenport, though, the players we’re considering fall outside of the ideal age for the competitively rebuilding Vikings. Adofo-Mensah will need to determine if the 29-year-old Hunter and 35-year-old Cousins could have 2-4 more years of high-level play left in them. If so, does the team get to a number that those two would accept?

Nevertheless, the broader point remains: cap space isn’t going to be as scarce as in past years. Minnesota thus has the potential to be major players within free agency.

Harrison Smith is going to have his jersey number retired in Minnesota but one wonders if he’ll be able to stick around for 2024. With a cap charge sitting above $19.2 million, Smith will need to agree to a new deal to keep finding employment in Eagan. A post-June 1 cut would give the Vikings $15.3 million in added cap room.

Harrison Phillips has proven to be the team’s best defensive lineman, but he can be cut for $6.5 million in added cap space. Expect the Vikings to at least consider that possibility. Dean Lowry may need to accept a pay cut to stick around; Minnesota will be reluctant to hold onto the $4.6 million cap charge in 2024 if the former Packer doesn’t pick up his play.

Another factor that shouldn’t be overlooked is the team’s effort to stockpile plenty of draft picks. With eight selections and possibly a few more before it’s all said and done, the Vikings get the luxury of picking up youthful talent on cost-controlled deals. As a result, there can be a few more luxuries in free agency. The large deals for premier veterans can be offset by the small deals for recent draftees.

The 2023 season isn’t over. If the Vikings pick up a pair of losses in Week 7 and Week 8, though, then the focus will likely shift toward the future. Seeing Kwesi Adofo-Mensah confirm that perspective by selling off some of the team’s best players would function as further confirmation that the goal has officially shifted to 2024 contention.

Sitting on more than $55 million in 2024, the Minnesota Vikings find themselves in a position to get better in a hurry once the current season finishes up.

Link:

purpleptsd.com/2023/vikings/vikings-analysis/vikings-abundant-cap/