2023 Offensive Line Discussion

Will
Veteran

Posts: 1,063

Likes: 906
Fan Since: 1968

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Aug 30, 2023 8:58:32 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Will on Aug 30, 2023 8:58:32 GMT -6

Last year, knowledgeable people were questioning how much Darrisaw would improve. Fortunately, he improved a lot and is now recognized as on his way to being an elite Left Tackle. If we only look at how much average Left Tackles improve, we miss what is possible for our particular player.

Similarly, Bradbury stunk for three seasons. Then with a new offense and a new line coach, he improved despite having a rookie RG who had a lot to learn about NFL defenses and NFL tackles.

Can Ingram improve? Can he become an average or better Right Guard? I don't have the OL expertise to know, but the Vikings should have multiple people with this expertise. If it is possible, Ingram will be given this opportunity. Is Ingram stronger than as a rookie? Has he improved his agility? Has he learned more about NFL defenses and players? If he is the right guy, he has. If he does not develop better pass protection skills, then he will be replaced by someone else. Maybe a healthy Chris Reed as a stopgap. Maybe Blake Brandel. Maybe someone else.

We know the Vikings are constrained by the Salary Cap, and I don't know what Risner would sign for. He may not be affordable. The Vikings do have Brandel, and today, he is better than Ingram at pass protection. So they are not stuck if Ingram is terrible or gets injured.

I expect Ingram to improve. Will it be enough? I hope so, and I really don't know. Most people on this board don't know either. We can claim to know, but we don't know. Past performances inform future performances, and guys do improve.

We can cite evidence why he will or won't improve, and that is what this board is about. We will find out soon how much, if any, he has improved.

tfundermann
Rookie

Posts: 293
Likes: 311

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Aug 30, 2023 14:05:37 GMT -6 Will likes this

Quote

Post by tfundermann on Aug 30, 2023 14:05:37 GMT -6

Aug 30, 2023 8:58:32 GMT -6 Will said:

Last year, knowledgeable people were questioning how much Darrisaw would improve. Fortunately, he improved a lot and is now recognized as on his way to being an elite Left Tackle. If we only look at how much average Left Tackles improve, we miss what is possible for our particular player.

Similarly, Bradbury stunk for three seasons. Then with a new offense and a new line coach, he improved despite having a rookie RG who had a lot to learn about NFL defenses and NFL tackles.

Can Ingram improve? Can he become an average or better Right Guard? I don't have the OL expertise to know, but the Vikings should have multiple people with this expertise. If it is possible, Ingram will be given this opportunity. Is Ingram stronger than as a rookie? Has he improved his agility? Has he learned more about NFL defenses and players? If he is the right guy, he has. If he does not develop better pass protection skills, then he will be replaced by someone else. Maybe a healthy Chris Reed as a stopgap. Maybe Blake Brandel. Maybe someone else.

We know the Vikings are constrained by the Salary Cap, and I don't know what Risner would sign for. He may not be affordable. The Vikings do have Brandel, and today, he is better than Ingram at pass protection. So they are not stuck if Ingram is terrible or gets injured.

I expect Ingram to improve. Will it be enough? I hope so, and I really don't know. Most people on this board don't know either. We can claim to know, but we don't know. Past performances inform future performances, and guys do improve.

We can cite evidence why he will or won't improve, and that is what this board is about. We will find out soon how much, if any, he has improved.

Agree with pretty much all of this. OL is one of those positions that can take a couple years to really get up to speed. The data has been run many times by smarter people than me that shows on average OL hit their stride in year 3 and 4. The big thing for Ingram will not be is he a top 10 guard in football (that would be great though!), it will be can he show improvement and at least stand up straight for a couple seconds against some of the quicker DTs. If he can just be serviceable this year compared to a revolving door the majority of last season, that will mean big things for this OL and offense as a whole.

It is also why I think we see Cleveland take another step forward this year. Year 4 for him, but the 2nd year in the same system, at the same position, with good coaching around him. Don't get me wrong Ezra won't all of the sudden be the next Chris Lindstrom, but I think he could see his pass blocking grade level out a bit. Instead of his pass blocking grade (PFF) being in the 50s and his run blocking in the 70s. I think we could see them both be in the upper 60s low 70s. Sign me up!

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,556 Likes: 31,479 Fan Since: 1998 Member is Online	2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 6, 2023 14:50:51 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Sept 6, 2023 14:50:51 GMT -6

dougpaschal Team Captain Posts: 1,880 Likes: 488 Member is Online	2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 6, 2023 15:58:21 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by dougpaschal on Sept 6, 2023 15:58:21 GMT -6 Sirles 5th round offensive guard draft plan is the WORST . I'm happy with the players the Vikings picked

Danchat
Content Creator

Posts: 19,014

Likes: 16,581

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 6, 2023 18:08:03 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Danchat on Sept 6, 2023 18:08:03 GMT -6

Sept 6, 2023 15:58:21 GMT -6 dougpaschal said:

Sirles 5th round offensive guard draft plan is the WORST . I'm happy with the players the Vikings picked

Could you explain why it's such a terrible idea? What would be so bad about drafting a guard in the 5th over trading up for Roy?

dougpaschal
Team Captain

Posts: 1,880
Likes: 488
Member is Online

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 6, 2023 21:53:32 GMT -6

Quote

Post by dougpaschal on Sept 6, 2023 21:53:32 GMT -6

Sept 6, 2023 18:08:03 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Sept 6, 2023 15:58:21 GMT -6 dougpaschal said:

Sirles 5th round offensive guard draft plan is the WORST . I'm happy with the players the Vikings picked

Could you explain why it's such a terrible idea? What would be so bad about drafting a guard in the 5th over trading up for Roy?

It was a weak guard class to begin with and it was completely picked over by that point. They can get a guard of the quality that was available in the fifth round off a practice squad

Last Edit: Sept 6, 2023 21:58:37 GMT -6 by dougpaschal

whoskmoon
Content Creator

Posts: 8,831
Likes: 7,185

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 7, 2023 7:54:00 GMT -6 via mobile Danchat likes this

Quote

Post by whoskmoon on Sept 7, 2023 7:54:00 GMT -6

Sept 6, 2023 21:53:32 GMT -6 dougpaschal said:

Sept 6, 2023 18:08:03 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Could you explain why it's such a terrible idea? What would be so bad about drafting a guard in the 5th over trading up for Roy?

It was a weak guard class to begin with and it was completely picked over by that point. They can get a guard of the quality that was available in the fifth round off a practice squad

Something tells me if we had drafted a guard in the 5th you would have thought he was the steal of the draft.

dougpaschal
Team Captain

Posts: 1,880
Likes: 488
Member is Online

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 7, 2023 13:30:44 GMT -6

Quote

Post by dougpaschal on Sept 7, 2023 13:30:44 GMT -6

Phillips had high praise for RG Ed Ingram: "Really, really good through camp. I just think he's going to continue to develop. You just see how powerful he can be in the run game, how he can anchor in the pass game. He's just been a real positive for us."

Last Edit: Sept 7, 2023 14:19:44 GMT -6 by dougpaschal

FSUVike
Franchise Player

Posts: 3,195
Likes: 4,939

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 7, 2023 13:42:59 GMT -6 via mobile Danchat, kmillard, and 2 more like this

Quote

Post by FSUVike on Sept 7, 2023 13:42:59 GMT -6

I had this as the second weakest Draft Class in ages past the 3rd Round behind only that uber-thin COVID Class from a few years back. The O-Line Class was far weaker than last year from top to bottom.

It seems the FO believes in Reed despite all the injuries. He really flashed at times with the Colts. But he's seemingly always banged up. If someone goes down for a stretch Brandel will really need to step up.

And it pains me to say this, but Bradbury must stay healthy. Schlottman is god awful. He's the biggest headscratcher for me of any single player on the Roster.

Danchat
Content Creator

Posts: 19,014

Likes: 16,581

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 7, 2023 15:57:29 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

Quote

Post by Danchat on Sept 7, 2023 15:57:29 GMT -6

Sept 7, 2023 13:42:59 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

It seems the FO believes in Reed despite all the injuries. He really flashed at times with the Colts. But he's seemingly always banged up.

I don't think he was hurt last year IIRC? Or was that just preseason? He was just a healthy scratch the first 10 games as they opted for Udoh/Brandel/Schlottmann to be active. So it's weird how they didn't want him active as a backup until injuries hit, yet have basically handed him a roster spot again this year once he's healthy (fully guaranteed salary after the pay cut).

Purple Pain
Hall of Fame Nominee

Posts: 8,733
Likes: 2,877

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 11, 2023 8:22:52 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Purple Pain on Sept 11, 2023 8:22:52 GMT -6

Arif Hasan - Minnesota Vikings-Tampa Bay Buccaneers Week 1 Reaction: How Did the Vikings Answer 5 Key Questions?

Can the Interior Offensive Line Hold Up?

Last year, Kirk Cousins led the league in quarterback hits – in big part a product of an interior offensive line that couldn’t hold up. Rookie Ed Ingram was the most worrisome of the group, but all three players carried concerns – Ezra Cleveland settled in as a run-blocker but had issues protecting the pocket while Garrett Bradbury had a history of bottom-level center play.

Bradbury had a career year last year and it may have provided reason for optimism but that risk, along with the risk of underperformance from the rest of the unit, meant it was somewhat alarming that they didn’t make further investments at the position.

Not only did that mean issues with the starting unit, but worries with depth, too. That last concern was tested early, as an injury to Garrett Bradbury meant Austin Schlottmann was inserted into the game. We also saw Oli Udoh finish out the game at left tackle after an ankle injury to Christian Darrisaw took him out relatively quickly as well.

The issue wasn’t with Udoh, however. Schlottmann had his share of struggles, but the primary issue throughout the day – one that saw Buccaneers defenders tally nine quarterback hits and two sacks – was second-year player Ingram.

Whether it was a miscommunication that led to poor blitz pickup or simply losing outright to the defender in front of him, Ingram presented a clear liability throughout the day.

For all the problems that pressure can provide, the biggest issue was not the pressure Ingram gave up, but the fumble he caused hitting Cousins’ hand during the center exchange on the snap. After stepping twice on Cousins’ foot last year and causing sacks, Ingram may present some very serious concerns about body control that may doom his time with the team.

The Vikings had a few opportunities to acquire players who could meaningfully challenge Ingram, Bradbury or Cleveland for a starting job. They declined to exercise those opportunities.

Breeze
Pro Bowl

Imaginal Cell

Posts: 2,160

Likes: 1,813

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 11, 2023 9:19:11 GMT -6 Purple Pain and kmillard like this

Quote

Post by Breeze on Sept 11, 2023 9:19:11 GMT -6

Just going off the espn box score, Cousins was hit 9 times yesterday.

The team/KOC has to adjust because there is no real, sustainable, adjustment Cousins can make, he's just not that guy. Mayfield displayed 10x more escapability than Cousins, for example. This is their achilles heel, obviously.

They want and project themselves as an explosive offense, but they can't run the ball, and Mattison looks to have a long way to go in blitz pick-up. This is why they consistently get shut down for whole swaths of games. It's no secret, every DC in the league can see this glaring weakness. Teams with average D-lines will continue to wreck this offense.

The moment the Bucs started getting pressure through the middle, Cousins started making crap decisions and some high passes in critical situations.

Outside of replacing Ingram, KOC needs to change his tactics. More slants and swing passes to RBs early to open things up some(?). Their inability to run the ball leaves defenses open to blitz regularly...right up the middle.

Danchat
Content Creator

Posts: 19,014

Likes: 16,581

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 11, 2023 10:47:00 GMT -6 Purple Pain likes this

Quote

Post by Danchat on Sept 11, 2023 10:47:00 GMT -6

PFF's notes on our OL play:
Darrisaw - 3 pressures, below average run blocking
Cleveland - 1 pressure, below average run blocking
Schlottmann - 2 pressures, below average run blocking
Ingram - 1 sack, 4 pressures, below average run blocking
O'Neill - 0 pressures, elite run blocking

Not as bad in pass protection as I suspected. But the run blocking is concerning to say the least.

Good thing we brought in zero competition to push Ingram! *wallbang*

Last Edit: Sept 12, 2023 11:37:31 GMT -6 by Danchat

Purple Pain
Hall of Fame Nominee

Posts: 8,733
Likes: 2,877

2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 12, 2023 9:43:57 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Purple Pain on Sept 12, 2023 9:43:57 GMT -6

Alec Lewis: How good can the Vikings offense be given the current state of the offensive line?

At this spring’s NFL league meetings, while sitting at a circular table inside a ballroom at the Arizona Biltmore Resort in Phoenix, coach Kevin O’Connell said the Minnesota Vikings had to move the ball more efficiently in 2023.

“We’ve got to run the football,” O’Connell said.

The follow-up question was an easy one: OK, how? What would the Vikings do between then and the season that would help them in that attempt?

The answer arrived when Minnesota signed a relatively unknown free-agent tight end named Josh Oliver. Even though Dalvin Cook was departing, the Vikings coaches talked up the ways they would be able to mix and match personnel to confound defenses that tried to limit superstar receiver Justin Jefferson.

Enhancing the offense quickly became a theme. Minnesota drafted shifty wide receiver Jordan Addison in the first round. Staffers explained the decision as a chance to attract coverage away from Jefferson. Additionally, quarterback Kirk Cousins talked often about the improvement that would be possible in his second year in O’Connell’s system and with O’Connell as his play caller.

And then Sunday happened.

At times, there were clear benefits to having heavier personnel in the passing game. In a couple of instances, Oliver plowed over defenders. Overall, though, the offense was far from spectacular, and the running game in particular was poor, as the Vikings totaled just 41 yards on the ground.

It’s impossible to avoid the cold, hard truth that Sunday served up: Games are won in the trenches, and Minnesota’s offensive front — which was not supplemented by any external offseason addition — remains a serious question mark.

“I wish we’d gotten a couple more successful runs off,” right tackle Brian O’Neill said Monday when asked what he noticed from his film review. “I’d like to see more rushing yardage.”

Because O’Connell has placed such a priority on the ground game, it makes sense that he’d start there. Only twice did the Vikings run for 8 yards or more on a play. The other 15 runs totaled 24 yards.

The advanced metrics paint an even uglier picture. Minnesota averaged negative yards before contact on those 15 suboptimal carries, according to TruMedia, essentially placing Alexander Mattison and Ty Chandler in the position of having to make lemonade out of rocks.

It’s worth noting that Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Todd Bowles has given O’Connell’s offenses problems for years. In fact, in the three games the Los Angeles Rams played against Bowles with O’Connell on the staff as offensive coordinator, Bowles limited the Rams to 141 combined rushing yards on 55 carries (2.6 yards per carry).

PurpleFloyd Jersey Retired Posts: 4,366 Likes: 2,094	2023 Offensive Line Discussion Sept 12, 2023 10:31:53 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by PurpleFloyd on Sept 12, 2023 10:31:53 GMT -6 It’s not good.