Extend Cousins or ... ?

Josey Wales
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 11:13:09 GMT -6

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Post by Josey Wales on Sept 21, 2023 11:13:09 GMT -6

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I am pretty sure mediocre means neither good or bad, it’s similar to saying he in the middle. You are the only one I saw mention bottom tier.

Semantics. 2, different perceptions, IMO.

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I would not be surprised if he was rushing it because he struggles with pocket presence but the plays mentioned he had time to make the throws (and did make them somewhere).

Pocket presence has never been his strong suit, something he still struggles with at times. But it's one of the areas where I saw some improvement in 2022.

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

A majority of the non scoring drives ended because cousins was struggling

Not 100% wrong. But I would argue that the play-calls were a bigger issue than Kirk, in most instances.

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I gave cousins a lot of credit for his play in the rs last year. I am not solely blaming him always because I view him as overpaid and more in the 11-15 range most seasons. When he plays like that I give him props. He has always had spurts of play like that in his career though, last year it happened at key times when we are used to the opposite. He has always been a stand up off field type so I don’t think that’s different. However we now have 3 straight close losses since that great run. He has struggled in key moments throughout that span. Missing behind on the throw on 3rd and checking down on 4th in the biggest moment of the season. The issues in the bucs games to follow. He hasn’t magically improved in these moments, he had a great stretch last year of somewhat outlier play in those situations. He’s a very similar qb now as he was before that. That’s why I asked how he has specifically improved, you would think there would be clear areas to point at if that were the case but it seems mostly related to a good stretch he had last season which isn’t sustainable (as we are seeing).

Winning cures everything. If we're NOT turning the ball over 3+ times per game, then we're not having this discussion. Both games would've been winnable without those turnovers, it's just a difference of perception in terms of who we each see as being at fault for the overall poor play.

mngopher35
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 12:18:20 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mngopher35 on Sept 21, 2023 12:18:20 GMT -6

Sept 21, 2023 11:13:09 GMT -6 Josey Wales said:

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I am pretty sure mediocre means neither good or bad, it’s similar to saying he in the middle. You are the only one I saw mention bottom tier.

Semantics. 2, different perceptions, IMO.

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I would not be surprised if he was rushing it because he struggles with pocket presence but the plays mentioned he had time to make the throws (and did make them somewhere).

Pocket presence has never been his strong suit, something he still struggles with at times. But it's one of the areas where I saw some improvement in 2022.

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

A majority of the non scoring drives ended because cousins was struggling

Not 100% wrong. But I would argue that the play-calls were a bigger issue than Kirk, in most instances.

Sept 21, 2023 10:57:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I gave cousins a lot of credit for his play in the rs last year. I am not solely blaming him always because I view him as overpaid and more in the 11-15 range most seasons. When he plays like that I give him props. He has always had spurts of play like that in his career though, last year it happened at key times when we are used to the opposite. He has always been a stand up off field type so I don’t think that’s different. However we now have 3 straight close losses since that great run. He has struggled in key moments throughout that span. Missing behind on the throw on 3rd and checking down on 4th in the biggest moment of the season. The issues in the bucs games to follow. He hasn’t magically improved in these moments, he had a great stretch last year of somewhat outlier play in those situations. He’s a very similar qb now as he was before that. That’s why I asked how he has specifically improved, you would think there would be clear areas to point at if that were the case but it seems mostly related to a good stretch he had last season which isn’t sustainable (as we are seeing).

Winning cures everything. If we're NOT turning the ball over 3+ times per game, then we're not having this discussion. Both games would've been winnable without those turnovers, it's just a difference of perception in terms of who we each see as being at fault for the overall poor play.

My point was just that you were the only one to jump to him being bottom tier there.

Koc had issues too but again all the examples in key moments were plays that lead to open wrs before the pass rush got there. He didn’t have any turnovers either. For the game the oline got good blocking grades and receivers good separation grades (JJ top 5, Addison wide on deep play etc). That doesn’t mean koc shouldn’t get blame for a bad running attack/screen game but with that factored in he still consistently called plays that work if you just have even solid qb play. While he doesn’t deserve all the blame for the turnovers you still can’t have 3 as a qb and then also consistently miss open throws and not even see wide open receivers all game. Doing so in almost every key moment makes it worse as well. Either way though on who you blame more, cousins wasn’t remotely close to a top 3 qb that game and most damage in the following game was after we went down 3 scores and defense softened.

In a sense sure it would cure a lot but that’s kind of the point. That’s what happened last year is we had a lot of luck and won every close game. Cousins showed up in big moments more than he normally does for a stretch and deserved props for it. He didn’t actually improve as a qb though. It’s not something that was ever going to be sustainable because he isn’t actually much improved or anything like that. He just had a good stretch in the rs leading us to winning more and it “cured” his perception, in the short term at least. The playoff game and start to this season are showing a regression to the norm in key moments so far. That’s what I am getting at and why I asked the question. I haven’t seen the actual sustainable improvement from him as a qb so was wondering where specifically it was outside of just us winning close ones last season.

Last Edit: Sept 21, 2023 12:20:23 GMT -6 by mngopher35

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 15:14:10 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 21, 2023 15:14:10 GMT -6

One thing no, "I want Cousins gone" person has said is who replaces him? Funny how that works. You all want him gone but not one of you has come up with his replacement. So here's the challenge. Tell us who you want to replace him with. If you are not willing to do that, then I say you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

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HunterMorrow
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 15:22:59 GMT -6 via mobile kmillard and VFL like this

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Post by HunterMorrow on Sept 21, 2023 15:22:59 GMT -6

Draft pick or bridge QB. Management can work with the coaches to figure it out. Same as it is with teams that don't go pricey free agent pickup. I do not want to do a major dollar free agent QB again.

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Danchat
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 16:30:47 GMT -6 Funkytown and diehardtwinsfan like this

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Post by Danchat on Sept 21, 2023 16:30:47 GMT -6

Sept 19, 2023 20:33:30 GMT -6 HunterMorrow said:

What do you think the Vikings would look like now if we moved off him at the end of the first 3 year contract?

I would guess they go with a bridge QB and potentially draft Fields or Jones in the 1st round of the 2021 draft (Spielman was trying to move up for Fields, reportedly). From there they probably lose a couple more games in 2021 with the drop in play with Kirk gone, and get a top 10 pick in the 2022 class (possibly draft a LT because in this scenario they didn't get Darrisaw). Hard to say much else, but they'd have approximately $101M more to spend in 2021-2023 without Cousins, which potentially could go to fixing holes in the OL and defense.

So yeah, I imagine we'd be in a worse spot at QB, but if the GM managed free agency well, the roster around him would be better... but by how much is debatable.

Last Edit: Sept 21, 2023 16:31:51 GMT -6 by Danchat

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 22:46:12 GMT -6 Danchat and kmillard like this

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Post by VFL on Sept 21, 2023 22:46:12 GMT -6

Sept 20, 2023 23:15:37 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Sept 20, 2023 8:16:36 GMT -6 VFL said:

Josh Allen: 4.6 years as a starting NFL QB (became starter during rookie season). Playoff appearances 4 (80%+). 4-4 playoff record. 3 Divisional round appearances. 1 AFC Championship appearance. No SB. Allen has a four-fold win total in the POs over KC in half the number of years as a starting NFL QB. Allen lost to Mahomes twice and Burrow once in the POs.

Joe Burrow: 2.6 years as a NFL starting QB (became starter during rookie season). Playoff appearances 2 (75%+). 5-2 playoff record. Divisional round =2. Made AFC Championship both playoff years. 1 Super Bowl loss. Burrow has a five-fold win total over KC in a third of the number of years as a starting QB. 1-1 vs Mahomes.

Patrick Mahomes: 5 years as a starting NFL QB. 5 playoff appearances is 5 (100%). 11-3 PO record. 5 Divisional rounds and 5 AFC Championship games. 2-1 in 3 Super Bowls. Mahomes has an 11-fold win total over KC is less than half of starting QB years. 1-1 vs Burrow.

And if winning a NFC championship is what Cousins would be measured by I might agree with you. But it's not. And you and everyone know it.

And right now, I would take Cousins over any of them other than Mahamoes. But then, let's see, Allen has had a top 5 defense for 3 of his 5 years starting and the other 2 it was 16 and 18.

Now let's look at Burrows.
2022 4-11-1 with the 26th-ranked defense in points.
2021 10-7-0 with the 17th-ranked defense in points.
2022 12-4-0 with the 6th-ranked defense in points.

Shall we look at the defenses Cousin has had over the last 3 years? Oh yeah, it doesn't matter because the QB drives the points on the defense. 2nd grade math I'm told. So, I'm still waiting for someone to tell us how the QBs on the Jets last year drove the defense to be the 4th ranked in the league in points and why the Jets went for Rodgers. And maybe explain why Rodgers has only had a top-10 defense for 3 years in Green Bay. Or is Rodgers not that good of a QB?

Bueller? Bueller?

I noticed you chose not to look at the defenses the prior two years of your example. Total D for the Vikes in 2018 was 4th and KC led them to a magnificent record of 8-7-1 and did not even make the playoffs. In 2019 the total D ranked 14th where Kirk picked up his lone post-season victory then lost in the divisional round. Based on your theory, those two years were Kirk's time to shine and we all know how that ended up.

Surely you can't correlate that D ranking alone equals SB wins. Stafford and the Rams won the SB with a total D ranking of 17th. Ironically, the previous Rams season produced the #1 D ranking in the league and yet they lost their only PO game that year with Goff. With the Skins, two seasons produced D rankings of 17th (same as Rams SB yr) and 19th. Kirk couldn't even get them into the playoffs. Three seasons Mahomes had Ds that ranked 27th (lost in AFC champ), 17th (won SB), and 31st (lost in AFC champ). Burrow teams with total D; 18th (lost SB) and 16th (lost AFC Champ).

Another aspect to look at with these QBs is turnovers. Those turnovers often times create short fields for the defense to defend. That plays a huge role in total points D. So how do they compare?

Interceptions: Burrow 32 in 1602 attempts (2.0)
Allen 63 in 2644 attempts (2.3)
Cousins 106 in 4954 attempts (2.1)

Fumbles: Burrow 20 in 154 carries (1.3)
Allen 54 in 555 carries (0.9)
Cousins 87 in 293 carries (3.0)

Pick 6s: Burrow 4
Allen 2
Cousins 13. ouch!
Rodgers (because you threw him in) 4

On interceptions all three are pretty much tit for tat but we all have seen Kirk check down (not just vs. NYG in playoffs) time and time again short of the sticks, not attempting the throws past the chains that get picked at a greater rate. The percentage of his picks returned for TDs is over 12%. Fumbles are clearly glaring against Kirk. His inability to escape and his holding on to the ball too long, not quickly reading progressions lead to this awful stat.

But hey, you go ahead and claim Kirk king even though his post-season prowess proves otherwise. Football minds will take the QBs that actually lead their teams in the playoffs.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 21, 2023 23:25:23 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 21, 2023 23:25:23 GMT -6

Sept 21, 2023 22:46:12 GMT -6 VFL said:

But hey, you go ahead and claim Kirk king even though his post-season prowess proves otherwise. Football minds will take the QBs that actually lead their teams in the playoffs.

Ah Yes. Because the QB is responsible for what happens on the defense. Second grade math I'm told. So please explain how the Jets had the 4th ranked defense last year in points with the QBs they had. This should be easy for you. After all, you picked Cousins apart here. Defend the Jets 'QBs from last year. If you can't do that, then you are full of sh*t.

And while you are at it, please list your choice of QB or QB's that might replace Cousin's. See, no one here has the balls to do it. Do you?

Last Edit: Sept 21, 2023 23:26:39 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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PurpleFloyd
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 5:15:42 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Sept 22, 2023 5:15:42 GMT -6

Sept 21, 2023 23:25:23 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Sept 21, 2023 22:46:12 GMT -6 VFL said:

But hey, you go ahead and claim Kirk king even though his post-season prowess proves otherwise. Football minds will take the QBs that actually lead their teams in the playoffs.

Ah Yes. Because the QB is responsible for what happens on the defense. Second grade math I'm told. So please explain how the Jets had the 4th ranked defense last year in points with the QBs they had. This should be easy for you. After all, you picked Cousins apart here. Defend the Jets 'QBs from last year. If you can't do that, then you are full of sh*t.

And while you are at it, please list your choice of QB or QB's that might replace Cousin's. See, no one here has the balls to do it. Do you?

Two years ago they wanted to replace him with Kellen Mond. Last year wanted to give up every draft pick to get one of the current rookies.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 6:48:41 GMT -6 via mobile VFL likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Sept 22, 2023 6:48:41 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 5:15:42 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Sept 21, 2023 23:25:23 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Ah Yes. Because the QB is responsible for what happens on the defense. Second grade math I'm told. So please explain how the Jets had the 4th ranked defense last year in points with the QBs they had. This should be easy for you. After all, you picked Cousins apart here. Defend the Jets 'QBs from last year. If you can't do that, then you are full of sh*t.

And while you are at it, please list your choice of QB or QB's that might replace Cousin's. See, no one here has the balls to do it. Do you?

Two years ago they wanted to replace him with Kellen Mond. Last year wanted to give up every draft pick to get one of the current rookies.

If either of those things are true there should be plenty of posts to prove it.

andhesloose28
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 6:51:43 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Sept 22, 2023 6:51:43 GMT -6

Sept 21, 2023 15:14:10 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

One thing no, "I want Cousins gone" person has said is who replaces him? Funny how that works. You all want him gone but not one of you has come up with his replacement. So here's the challenge. Tell us who you want to replace him with. If you are not willing to do that, then I say you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I mean its a simple answer you have to draft a guy in RD1...Likely trading up unless we are planning on fumbling 3 times a game this year. No one is trying to replace Kirk with Jimmy G or something. Luckily it is the perfect draft to do so, there will likely be 5 QBs maybe in RD1.

Last Edit: Sept 22, 2023 6:56:29 GMT -6 by andhesloose28

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 7:04:55 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 22, 2023 7:04:55 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 6:51:43 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Sept 21, 2023 15:14:10 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

One thing no, "I want Cousins gone" person has said is who replaces him? Funny how that works. You all want him gone but not one of you has come up with his replacement. So here's the challenge. Tell us who you want to replace him with. If you are not willing to do that, then I say you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I mean its a simple answer you have to draft a guy in RD1...Likely trading up unless we are planning on fumbling 3 times a game this year. No one is trying to replace Kirk with Jimmy G or something. Luckily it is the perfect draft to do so, there will likely be 5 QBs maybe in RD1.

And once again, no names. Just some guy from Round 1. Thanks for proving my point. No one has the balls to try to name the Vikings future QB.

Last Edit: Sept 22, 2023 7:06:06 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 7:26:13 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Sept 22, 2023 7:26:13 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 6:48:41 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Sept 22, 2023 5:15:42 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Two years ago they wanted to replace him with Kellen Mond. Last year wanted to give up every draft pick to get one of the current rookies.

If either of those things are true there should be plenty of posts to prove it.

I told you before that it would be best to not reply to me because I honestly don’t care what you think.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 7:28:13 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Sept 22, 2023 7:28:13 GMT -6

Sept 22, 2023 6:51:43 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Sept 21, 2023 15:14:10 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

One thing no, "I want Cousins gone" person has said is who replaces him? Funny how that works. You all want him gone but not one of you has come up with his replacement. So here's the challenge. Tell us who you want to replace him with. If you are not willing to do that, then I say you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I mean its a simple answer you have to draft a guy in RD1...Likely trading up unless we are planning on fumbling 3 times a game this year. No one is trying to replace Kirk with Jimmy G or something. Luckily it is the perfect draft to do so, there will likely be 5 QBs maybe in RD1.

Like Ponder? Teddy?

How many of the 5 would you place $1000 on having a better career than Kirk? How many from this draft? How many from last draft?

diehardtwinsfan Moderator Posts: 11,892 Likes: 7,450	Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 22, 2023 7:31:07 GMT -6 Danchat likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by diehardtwinsfan on Sept 22, 2023 7:31:07 GMT -6 Mod note, let's drop the bickering please.