Extend Cousins or ... ?

whoskmoon
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 9:24:13 GMT -6 via mobile suncoastvike and mngopher35 like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Sept 4, 2023 9:24:13 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 8:05:56 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

Sept 4, 2023 6:24:07 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

All teams run through stretches in games where they don’t score. That’s why we have punters and scores aren’t 100-95.

The fact is we have a QB who has been more consistently productive than any other QB since Culpepper 20 years ago or Tarkenton 50 years ago. He isn’t HOF and if we get a better player to replace him nobody will care. But some don’t want him off the roster until that player is here and takes the job from him.

Of course all teams have stretches lol. Not every team goes most of the game with one single drive over 8 yards like was pointed out though. Not many struggle so bad to score in the third quarter that articles are written to analyze what is going wrong like last year. I think it was something like 20 points in the third through the first 8 games? I would have to look it up but those are the types of issues I am talking about. I believe there were some threads here made about it too. It’s something many people watching the team have easily caught on to and written about as an issue.

We don’t have a very good qb history and none of those guys took as big of cap hits as cousins has taken. So while I agree I am not sure that really means much and definitely doesn’t change what I was saying. Some can want to keep him, that always happens with players on a team that fans love. It just isn’t likely to lead this team where many want it to go imo. That’s been the issue for a while is the level of play compared to what has been paid and where the rest of the roster was at. It’s time to move on and rebuild across the board, you often don’t have better players ready when you let guys go (smith/Kendrick’s/Tomlinson/theilan). You simply realize it’s time to move on from that aging vet and rebuild the roster like we have started doing. You can use the draft and get a replacement high like we did with Addison. Rebuilding the roster for the future should be the priority imo and we have set ourselves up to do that after the season (or resign cousins if the team makes a legitimate run).

Sept 4, 2023 6:30:06 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Just three years ago it was that Kirk is a “.500 QB and his record shows he can’t win more games”

Then he was a “gravitational pull towards.500”

Then he couldn’t win the prime time games, come from behind or lead the team to win.

Now he can’t play at this level forever

He could win a SB and the same people would complain he only won 1.

He could walk on water and they would say it’s because he can’t swim.

Well you won’t see any of that from me or be able to quote it. However I will note until last season a lot of those generalizations had some truth/facts behind them in terms of record and big games. I think some of it has been overboard and unfair though, to me he’s been an above average qb just a bit overpaid. I just never thought he would lift that roster to the levels predicted and since the defense fell off it’s been time to rebuild imo.

If he won a SB fans would go crazy lol. There might be like 5 people complaining but I think basically 99% of fans would be ready to put him in the ring. There seems to be a weird perception that a bunch of fans hate cousins but I just don’t get that and no one ever backs it up. Often I see people responding to extreme homerism regarding cousins and it gets called hate but very few posters seems to just come on to bash the guy non stop. He seems like a pretty good guy overall so I don’t get this idea many fans just want to hate him or whatever no matter what he does. It’s more about what is best for this franchise and there are a fair amount of fans that don’t think Kirk is the answer for us.

Yeah, saying people would dislike Kirk even if he won a SB is like saying people would rip Jimmy G for being injury prone even if he went 5 seasons without getting hurt.

Let's see it even come close to happening before projecting this particular victim hood on Kirk

Last Edit: Sept 4, 2023 9:24:39 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

Raptorman
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 9:49:08 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 4, 2023 9:49:08 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 6:13:37 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Sept 3, 2023 22:56:01 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Knock yourself out.

And, Yeah, I'm not just asking it now. I've been asking for someone who brought it up to tie TOP with the defense as they claim TOP helps the defense.

www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/time-of-possession-pct-net-of-ot?date=2020-02-03

That is team TOP and doesn't tell us whether the offense or defense was the problem. Problem not necessarily being the correct word either, since a defense or offense not being on the field for long isn't always a good/bad thing.

I posted the TOP for the past two seasons for the offense and it resulted in more possessions for the defense and offense leading to more yards and points scored/given up. That is a cold hard fact. That means when you use PPG, Cousins will always have an advantage because he has more opportunities per game, but it also means his defenses will be disadvantaged because they will have more opportunities to give up more points and yards. Another cold hard fact.

TOP always refers to offense. Cold hard fact? Let's see the data? Each team at most, can have two more possessions during any game. That is a cold hard fact. And TOP doesn't mean squat. Let me explain. Lets say you have team A that is very efficient on moving the ball on offense. They score on an average of each drive consisting of 5 plays. Less than 6 minutes per drive. The other team is less efficient and takes 8 minute to score. The game is tied close to the end and team A scores and wins the game. TOP belongs to team B, but, team A won.

So explain how TOP for Team B helped them?

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

mngopher35
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 10:55:00 GMT -6

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Post by mngopher35 on Sept 4, 2023 10:55:00 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 8:26:23 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Sept 4, 2023 8:05:56 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

Of course all teams have stretches lol. Not every team goes most of the game with one single drive over 8 yards like was pointed out though. Not many struggle so bad to score in the third quarter that articles are written to analyze what is going wrong like last year. I think it was something like 20 points in the third through the first 8 games? I would have to look it up but those are the types of issues I am talking about. I believe there were some threads here made about it too. It’s something many people watching the team have easily caught on to and written about as an issue.

We don’t have a very good qb history and none of those guys took as big of cap hits as cousins has taken. So while I agree I am not sure that really means much and definitely doesn’t change what I was saying. Some can want to keep him, that always happens with players on a team that fans love. It just isn’t likely to lead this team where many want it to go imo. That’s been the issue for a while is the level of play compared to what has been paid and where the rest of the roster was at. It’s time to move on and rebuild across the board, you often don’t have better players ready when you let guys go (smith/Kendrick’s/Tomlinson/theilan). You simply realize it’s time to move on from that aging vet and rebuild the roster like we have started doing. You can use the draft and get a replacement high like we did with Addison. Rebuilding the roster for the future should be the priority imo and we have set ourselves up to do that after the season (or resign cousins if the team makes a legitimate run).

Well you won’t see any of that from me or be able to quote it. However I will note until last season a lot of those generalizations had some truth/facts behind them in terms of record and big games. I think some of it has been overboard and unfair though, to me he’s been an above average qb just a bit overpaid. I just never thought he would lift that roster to the levels predicted and since the defense fell off it’s been time to rebuild imo.

If he won a SB fans would go crazy lol. There might be like 5 people complaining but I think basically 99% of fans would be ready to put him in the ring. There seems to be a weird perception that a bunch of fans hate cousins but I just don’t get that and no one ever backs it up. Often I see people responding to extreme homerism regarding cousins and it gets called hate but very few posters seems to just come on to bash the guy non stop. He seems like a pretty good guy overall so I don’t get this idea many fans just want to hate him or whatever no matter what he does. It’s more about what is best for this franchise and there are a fair amount of fans that don’t think Kirk is the answer for us.

If we had anyone good their contract would have looked the same. Living in the bottom of the barrel and bringing in retreads did nothing for our success year over year.

Culpepper signed a 10 year 102 million dollar contract in 2003. 20 years ago. I’m pretty sure that put a dent in the salary cap and we had Moss at the time as well.

While you generally have to pay up for a good QB, that doesn't mean it would have looked the same. Cousins from what I can tell using over the cap has had the highest combined cap hits if you use the last 5 seasons. 3/5 seasons he was in the top 3 for cap hits. If the cap hits had been more of like 10-15 every single season it would make more sense what you say but we have been paying near the top of the league and not getting that elite production.

In terms of success you also have it wrong imo. Paying up for a QB like Cousins has done nothing for our success year over year. In fact we went from a team 1 game from the SB with Case Keenum to one playoff win in the 5 seasons since, making it only 2/5 years. Our best season the last decade came with a cheap backup level QB. Before that it was Brett Favre at the end of his career. Before that it was Cunningham towards the end of his. We have had more success going with the retreads than we have paying up for someone like Kirk that won't live up to the salary. Or even Culpepper as you also mention. The reality is big contracts for QB's who aren't actually elite don't usually pan out very well for the team paying them and the only time it really makes sense is if you have a championship caliber roster (which is why we brought Cousins here in the first place is we felt we did with top 10 defense and elite weapons). It just hasn't lead to any success, part of that is on Cousins play (more early on) and part of that is on the team falling off (defense last few years). Either way we have had more success with random vet QB's over the years than overpaying players like Kirk or Dante.

whoskmoon
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 11:52:55 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Sept 4, 2023 11:52:55 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 9:49:08 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

TOP always refers to offense. Cold hard fact?

No, that is just something you thought I said. Try reading my post again.

The Vikings defense did contribute to more drives, having the 11th lowest TOP per drive in 2022. Just not as much as the offense who was 31st.

Sept 4, 2023 9:49:08 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

And TOP doesn't mean squat. Let me explain.

In a perfect world where defenses didn't get worn down from being on the field too much you would be correct, but that isn't the case in the real world. In reality, defenses get more tired the more they are on the field while offensive players do not get tired as much. We saw this with AP when he used to start out slow, but as the game went and the defense got bashed often enough, giant holes would open up that weren't there in the first half, and a lot more broken tackles would occur.

However, that isn't even really the point being made. You keep posting stats to show that Cousins faced on average a higher point per game than other QBs, and the reality is that a big reason for that higher point total is the offense forcing the defense to defend more drives than most. 1.5 drives more per game with the defenses we have had the past few seasons would lead to over 3 more points per game scored, and nearly 50 yards more per game given up. Now, if that was because the Vikings were scoring really quickly on big plays that would be one thing, but the reality is the reason is the constant 3 and outs.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 12:04:19 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 4, 2023 12:04:19 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 11:52:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

1.5 drives more per game with the defenses we have had the past few seasons would lead to over 3 more points per game scored, and nearly 50 yards more per game given up. Now, if that was because the Vikings were scoring really quickly on big plays that would be one thing, but the reality is the reason is the constant 3 and outs.

And this so far is just a theory. Care to bring some actual numbers to it, or just use it as a "What if"? Theories are great, but all they are is that, theory. It's like TOP, no one has come up with the numbers. And until they do, it's just a theory.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

whoskmoon
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 13:41:44 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by whoskmoon on Sept 4, 2023 13:41:44 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 12:04:19 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Sept 4, 2023 11:52:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

1.5 drives more per game with the defenses we have had the past few seasons would lead to over 3 more points per game scored, and nearly 50 yards more per game given up. Now, if that was because the Vikings were scoring really quickly on big plays that would be one thing, but the reality is the reason is the constant 3 and outs.

And this so far is just a theory. Care to bring some actual numbers to it, or just use it as a "What if"? Theories are great, but all they are is that, theory. It's like TOP, no one has come up with the numbers. And until they do, it's just a theory.

Not a theory, a fact, and the numbers have been posted probably a dozen times on here. Including on the previous page of this thread.

You can look them up yourself here:

stathead.com/football/drive_finder.cgi

Since 2018, the Vikings have defended the 4th most drives of any team, excluding kneel downs, while teams like the Chiefs and Packers defended the 4th and 5th least. Over the past two seasons that difference has gotten even bigger with the Vikings needing to defend 38 more drives than the Chiefs, 46 more than the Packers.

So more than two extra drives a season.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 14:51:50 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 4, 2023 14:51:50 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 13:41:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Sept 4, 2023 12:04:19 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

And this so far is just a theory. Care to bring some actual numbers to it, or just use it as a "What if"? Theories are great, but all they are is that, theory. It's like TOP, no one has come up with the numbers. And until they do, it's just a theory.

Not a theory, a fact, and the numbers have been posted probably a dozen times on here. Including on the previous page of this thread.

You can look them up yourself here:

stathead.com/football/drive_finder.cgi

Since 2018, the Vikings have defended the 4th most drives of any team, excluding kneel downs, while teams like the Chiefs and Packers defended the 4th and 5th least. Over the past two seasons that difference has gotten even bigger with the Vikings needing to defend 38 more drives than the Chiefs, 46 more than the Packers.

So more than two extra drives a season.

And that goes to PPG on defense? Right? Because the Vikings have sucked in that category in the past three years. Interesting that only 2022 is showing, So, data from 1 year, not 3. But wait, the Vikings defensed 54 drives while having.......................53.

Been looking at your link. Lot's of good info there. Like the fact the Vikings defense defended 54 drives during the year. 2nd worst in the NFL. But yet, other teams only scored on them 24.!5 of drives. 6th best in the NFL.

Now lets go to the offensive side of the drive chart you provided. Vikings has 53 drives on offense last year. Resulting in a TD on 28.3 % of their drives. Second best in the NFL. Who would have thunk it?

Of course those numbers are only for the fourth quarter.

Last Edit: Sept 4, 2023 17:00:06 GMT -6 by Raptorman

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

Danchat Content Creator Posts: 19,030 Likes: 16,616 Member is Online	Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 15:56:20 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Danchat on Sept 4, 2023 15:56:20 GMT -6 Sept 4, 2023 13:41:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said: So more than two extra drives a season. You mean per game, right? That's quite significant.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 17:06:34 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Sept 4, 2023 17:06:34 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 10:55:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

Sept 4, 2023 8:26:23 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

If we had anyone good their contract would have looked the same. Living in the bottom of the barrel and bringing in retreads did nothing for our success year over year.

Culpepper signed a 10 year 102 million dollar contract in 2003. 20 years ago. I’m pretty sure that put a dent in the salary cap and we had Moss at the time as well.

While you generally have to pay up for a good QB, that doesn't mean it would have looked the same. Cousins from what I can tell using over the cap has had the highest combined cap hits if you use the last 5 seasons. 3/5 seasons he was in the top 3 for cap hits. If the cap hits had been more of like 10-15 every single season it would make more sense what you say but we have been paying near the top of the league and not getting that elite production.

In terms of success you also have it wrong imo. Paying up for a QB like Cousins has done nothing for our success year over year. In fact we went from a team 1 game from the SB with Case Keenum to one playoff win in the 5 seasons since, making it only 2/5 years. Our best season the last decade came with a cheap backup level QB. Before that it was Brett Favre at the end of his career. Before that it was Cunningham towards the end of his. We have had more success going with the retreads than we have paying up for someone like Kirk that won't live up to the salary. Or even Culpepper as you also mention. The reality is big contracts for QB's who aren't actually elite don't usually pan out very well for the team paying them and the only time it really makes sense is if you have a championship caliber roster (which is why we brought Cousins here in the first place is we felt we did with top 10 defense and elite weapons). It just hasn't lead to any success, part of that is on Cousins play (more early on) and part of that is on the team falling off (defense last few years). Either way we have had more success with random vet QB's over the years than overpaying players like Kirk or Dante.

Do you think Case Keenum or Teddy would have produced more offense for the team leading to more wins than we have had?

Do you feel Kirk alone was the reason for us not getting to the SB in 2018.

Would we have gotten to the SB in 2018 with Case as the QB?
How come he never repeated his 2017 performance anywhere before or after he was with the Vikings?

Teddy was a pro bowl QB who threw 14 TDs and 9 interceptions yet he was labeled a winner and that wins are all that matter in discussions at the time. Is that the case?

Mullens is cheap. So is Hall. Should we trade Kirk and use the extra money to improve the roster? Do you think that we would win a SB by making those moves? If not why?

oofda22
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 17:41:19 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by oofda22 on Sept 4, 2023 17:41:19 GMT -6

Aug 31, 2023 10:20:40 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Aug 31, 2023 10:12:11 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Agreed, I think that's an accurate take. Though within the past year Kirk's popularity has increased with all of the comeback wins, the Kirko Chains stuff, the Quarterback Netflix show, him being in the Top 50 players (that's a player vote but still relevant here IMO). There are still some talking heads who think he's worse than Goff or even Fields, but right now he's at the peak of his popularity since when we signed him.

This is how bad Cousins really is. 2018-2022

Player	        G	GS	Cmp	Att	Inc	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Pick6	TD%	Int%	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	ANY/A	Y/C

Josh Allen	77	76	1604	2566	 962	62.5	18397	138	60	   2	5.4	2.3	 92.2	151	935	7.2	7.19	6.45	11.5

Tom Brady	82	82	2124	3245	1121	65.5	23055	161	52	   5	5.0	1.6	 96.1	113	779	7.1	7.38	6.90	10.9

Kirk Cousins	80	80	1877	2770	 893	67.8	20934	153	50	   6	5.5	1.8	100.9	181	1250	7.6	7.85	6.94	11.2

Aaron Rodgers	81	81	1813	2765	 952	65.6	20553	162	27	   2	5.9	1.0	103.2	167	1265	7.4	8.17	7.27	11.3

Matt Stafford	66	66	1503	2278	 775	66.0	17333	117	51	  11	5.1	2.2	 96.6	155	1097	7.6	7.63	6.69	11.5

Now granted that is comparing him to what some would call the best QBs in the league. But if you want to compare him to others, let me know their names and I'll be happy to do it.

I wouldn't have thought his numbers would compare so favorably to Waaron's.

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

oofda22
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 17:44:54 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by oofda22 on Sept 4, 2023 17:44:54 GMT -6

Sept 2, 2023 12:24:07 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Sept 2, 2023 11:00:45 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

the patriots won nothing before Brady and have nothing after. That's a pretty dumb statement if you ask me

I didn't actually realize the Patriots won zero Super Bowls from 1960 to 2000. Will Patriots history be categorized as "pre Brady", "Brady era", and "post Brady"?

They've gone back to being a middling franchise without him, and I think Belichick hasn't been all that that he has been cracked up to be, even though he still coaches defense well. His failure as a GM in the draft/free agency and failing at OC / QB positions are costing them.

Belicheat never has drafted well (especially WRs 😳). He had Brady to be the constant for a lot of years. Its allowed Belicheat to try things on the fringes and when Brady wasn't making a ton, Belicheat could bring is impact free agents.

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 4, 2023 18:51:01 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 4, 2023 18:51:01 GMT -6

Purple Insider: For Kirk Cousins, it's a last dance for one by Matthew Coller

One by one, stars went out the door, starting with Pro Bowlers Adam Thielen and Eric Kendricks and then Dalvin Tomlinson and Patrick Peterson and then Za’Darius Smith and Dalvin Cook.

That was the group that was tasked with getting them back to the NFC Championship. Ever since losing to the Eagles in 2017, they had been chasing a return to championship weekend, whether it was signing Kirk Cousins to the largest contract ever at the time or extending Mike Zimmer after a victory against the Saints in the playoffs or a trade for Yannick Ngakoue. Each attempt fell short, so the last-ditch effort was changing the culture under Kevin O’Connell and hoping that a down NFC and a few breaks could get them back.

And everything did break their way until it didn’t. It was as memorable of a last dance season that you are going to find, even if it ended in the first round of the playoffs. Whether it was forcing late turnovers, hitting game-winning field goals, finishing clutch drives or any other way the Vikings could find to win games in 2022, they did and it was a carnival ride for fans. But in the playoffs, they came one magical drive short and that was the last that beloved group would be on the field together.

Now they have a new starting running back. A rookie receiver who’s taking over for Adam Thielen. On defense, if you didn’t track the moves this offseason you might recognize only about three people.

Unlike with the Bulls in 1998, Vikings fans were ready for this. We are privy to enough information about age curves and contracts to know that another attempt at running it back wouldn’t have been as blissful. They understand one-score game regression and they were tired of the same old approach ending with the same old results, even if it was more joyful in 2022.

Backed by fans or not, it is still pretty darn rare to see a team give the green light on a tear down after a 13-win season. That’s what makes it so last-dancey. Normally if a team comes close, they make a big offseason splash move and give it another shot.

In the middle of both worlds, the last-dance team and the new-look Vikings, is Kirk Cousins.

Only Brian O’Neill, Danielle Hunter, Harrison Smith and CJ Ham remain from the 2018 team he joined with hopes of being the final piece that would get the Vikings over the top. If you believe the rumor mill, the team’s brass considered both putting him on a bus out of town with the rest of the aging players and giving him a short-term extension. But neither of those things happened, placing him on a team that entered training camp with a press conference centered around the idea of a “competitive rebuild.” The irony is that he makes the first part possible.

If the Vikings had moved on from Cousins this offseason and started a rookie or Trey Lance or a journeyman veteran like Marcus Mariota or Andy Dalton, nobody would view them as a club that could win the NFC North. They certainly wouldn’t project as a top 10 offense, even with Justin Jefferson at his peak powers.

But that doesn’t mean there is much believe in this overhauled team. PFF ranked them 15th in their market-implied power rankings, DraftKings has the over/under at 8.5 and the money is slightly more on the side of them missing the playoffs.

It’s a strange place for Cousins to be. In a way, it feels like he should have been wooed by the Jets or joined a Saints team that feels like they are a quarterback away from being a contender.

You rarely see this type of situation from a QB who was ranked in The Athletic’s QB Tiers article as 12th best in the league. Cousins, Ryan Tannehill and Baker Mayfield are the only opening day quarterbacks whose contracts run out after 2024. Though once upon a time the Ravens took the same approach with Joe Flacco and they won the Super Bowl. Ya never know.

Cousins seems OK with all of it. Earlier this offseason he gave a 437-word answer to a question about his future, saying he’s always felt been unsure of the future entering every season, even going back to high school.

“This has kind of been a part of my story,” Cousins said. “I walked off the field the last game of my high school career, no scholarship offers. So that whole season, you get the question from the Holland Sentinel, ‘How are you focusing on that? How are you handling that?’ I learned, you’ve gotta focus on winning football games. And if you win football games and do your part and put your work in, the rest will take care of itself.”

Link:

purpleinsider.substack.com/p/for-kirk-cousins-its-a-last-dance

It's now or never for Kirk. It's hard not to have some feelings about it. Heck, as Vikings fans, we're not used to having a quarterback stick around for so long. They're either huge disappointments or getting injured. Or both. The Kirk Cousins debate will live on, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't feeling a little sentimental about the idea of it being his "last dance" with us. I've grown to really appreciate his availability, true professionalism, ... dorkiness, etc.

*uvikethat*

Last Edit: Sept 4, 2023 18:51:57 GMT -6 by Funkytown

mngopher35
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 5, 2023 8:46:20 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mngopher35 on Sept 5, 2023 8:46:20 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 17:06:34 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Sept 4, 2023 10:55:00 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

While you generally have to pay up for a good QB, that doesn't mean it would have looked the same. Cousins from what I can tell using over the cap has had the highest combined cap hits if you use the last 5 seasons. 3/5 seasons he was in the top 3 for cap hits. If the cap hits had been more of like 10-15 every single season it would make more sense what you say but we have been paying near the top of the league and not getting that elite production.

In terms of success you also have it wrong imo. Paying up for a QB like Cousins has done nothing for our success year over year. In fact we went from a team 1 game from the SB with Case Keenum to one playoff win in the 5 seasons since, making it only 2/5 years. Our best season the last decade came with a cheap backup level QB. Before that it was Brett Favre at the end of his career. Before that it was Cunningham towards the end of his. We have had more success going with the retreads than we have paying up for someone like Kirk that won't live up to the salary. Or even Culpepper as you also mention. The reality is big contracts for QB's who aren't actually elite don't usually pan out very well for the team paying them and the only time it really makes sense is if you have a championship caliber roster (which is why we brought Cousins here in the first place is we felt we did with top 10 defense and elite weapons). It just hasn't lead to any success, part of that is on Cousins play (more early on) and part of that is on the team falling off (defense last few years). Either way we have had more success with random vet QB's over the years than overpaying players like Kirk or Dante.

Do you think Case Keenum or Teddy would have produced more offense for the team leading to more wins than we have had?

Do you feel Kirk alone was the reason for us not getting to the SB in 2018.

Would we have gotten to the SB in 2018 with Case as the QB?
How come he never repeated his 2017 performance anywhere before or after he was with the Vikings?

Teddy was a pro bowl QB who threw 14 TDs and 9 interceptions yet he was labeled a winner and that wins are all that matter in discussions at the time. Is that the case?

Mullens is cheap. So is Hall. Should we trade Kirk and use the extra money to improve the roster? Do you think that we would win a SB by making those moves? If not why?

No I wanted to go with a rookie that year, not keenum or Teddy (if Teddy never got injured I had hope he could be a good game manager). I think I copied my quote in a different thread but I was high on lamar.

I also don’t think he was the sole reason, that’s why I said cousins was part of the reason. He isn’t the sole reason as we also had a poor oline and recently poor defense as noted. When we still had a great defense and elite weapons in 2019 in that game I referenced he was a major issue. I shared a breakdown before of a lot of missed opportunities that game as the offense couldn’t move the ball. There were guys open with time to hit them and Cousins wasn’t making the throws. So in our best chance since he got here, he ended up being a big issue in the biggest moment we have had in 5 years with him. It’s not all his fault but when we had a great team with a chance to win in the playoffs he stood out as a major issue.

As for moving forward I would be just fine trading him now for draft capital. Starting hall and losing some games isn’t a huge negative when the goal is to draft a qb this year anyways. It actually helps get into a range where with extra capital we get the guy we really like instead of whoever is left. Use the extra cap space to build up the roster like you said and by 2025 the books are cleared with a cheap qb who has a season under his belt and a lot of help on that side of the ball. Hopefully it also gives enough time to get some talent on defense too. Even if we just do what we have been with other vets and move on next year when his contract ends that is fine too. We just need to keep rebuilding the roster and focusing on the future all around.

Last Edit: Sept 5, 2023 8:48:16 GMT -6 by mngopher35

comet52
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 5, 2023 8:53:59 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner likes this

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Post by comet52 on Sept 5, 2023 8:53:59 GMT -6

What's the best thing Kirk Cousins can do this year to help the Vikings in the biggest way possible?

That's easy: suffer a season-ending injury in game 1. Let the team watch Nick Mullens lose a couple games, realize the Super Competitive 9-8 with a one and done dream (nightmare?) is toast, and put Jaren Hall "of famer" in for the duration. *thumb_up*

See what you've got; you've either got a qbotf, or you are losing 14 games and have an entry in the Caleb Williams sweepstakes.

All I can say is "Thank you Kirko!"

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Sept 5, 2023 8:58:28 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Raptorman on Sept 5, 2023 8:58:28 GMT -6

Sept 4, 2023 13:41:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Sept 4, 2023 12:04:19 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

And this so far is just a theory. Care to bring some actual numbers to it, or just use it as a "What if"? Theories are great, but all they are is that, theory. It's like TOP, no one has come up with the numbers. And until they do, it's just a theory.

Not a theory, a fact, and the numbers have been posted probably a dozen times on here. Including on the previous page of this thread.

You can look them up yourself here:

stathead.com/football/drive_finder.cgi

Since 2018, the Vikings have defended the 4th most drives of any team, excluding kneel downs, while teams like the Chiefs and Packers defended the 4th and 5th least. Over the past two seasons that difference has gotten even bigger with the Vikings needing to defend 38 more drives than the Chiefs, 46 more than the Packers.

So more than two extra drives a season.

And yes it’s a nice theory. However the Vikings had more offensive drives last year than defensive drives.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.