The Final Play

SiteWolf
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The Final Play Jan 22, 2023 12:32:26 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

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Post by SiteWolf on Jan 22, 2023 12:32:26 GMT -6

Jan 19, 2023 14:54:21 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Why does everyone assume Kevin was bringing the Rams Offense to Minnesota?

Remember, he designed plays WITHIN the constraints of the McVay System. Just as McVay designed plays within the constraints of the Shanahan/Kubiak System.

Sean McVay doesn't strike me as a guy that would say 'design whatever you want, I'll just call the plays'.

These are all bright minds. Kevin O'Connell may very well have designed his own Offense within his own parameters. And those parameters could be different than what McVay and Kyle Shanahan operate under.

He sure as heck calls way fewer East/West plays than any Shanahan/McVay purveyor. His screens are terrible, which is a major staple of that scheme.

He's got a decent ways to go as a Playcaller and as a Play Designer. No doubt about that.

I didn't expect the McVay offense. I expected the creativity of a McVay offense. We got neither.
I like KOC as our HC, I don't like him as our playcaller...or sole designer.
I'm surprised (both sides of the ball) we didn't have players asking 'what if we did this' far more often than it appeared. Coaches like Andy Reid encourage players to do that.

Minniman
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The Final Play Jan 22, 2023 15:39:37 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Jan 22, 2023 15:39:37 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 6:07:57 GMT -6 SiteWolf said:

The biggest problem I have with the play design is......it's 4th and 8, yet you've got Hockenson 3 yards downfield, Osborn 13 yards downfield...and any other option much deeper. You need 8 to save your season- why the hell aren't there multiple receivers 8-10 yards out?!

I have been stating that for years if not decades. Design a play for that situation, and always push beyond the sticks.

Plus, on replay you see KJ just as open as Hock was 13 yards out just before Kirk throws to Hock.

Tod be fair, Kirk isn't looking at an All 22 in slow motion and rewind either. It was a poor choice, but getting sacked would have been poorer, and he often doesn't have time to look through all of his progressions. The play design should have pushed Hock to the yard to gain.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

idavike
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 11:09:52 GMT -6

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Post by idavike on Jan 23, 2023 11:09:52 GMT -6

Jan 22, 2023 15:39:37 GMT -6 Minniman said:

The play design should have pushed Hock to the yard to gain.

I agree but not sure it was possible since Dexter Lawrence was in Kirk's face, no thanks to Bradbury tripping Cleveland. I believe the design was for Hock to dew an "out & up" route, unfortunately, TJ not only had to chip the DE but also got legally jammed about 4 yards up, thus throwing the whole timing of his route off. Bottom line, it was a well defended and executed play by the Giants.

kirko8 Rookie Posts: 232 Likes: 73	The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 12:51:42 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by kirko8 on Jan 23, 2023 12:51:42 GMT -6 the thing many fans do not get is the other team is playing too you just don't get to complete every pass you want for every amount of yardage you want on every play
	Last Edit: Jan 23, 2023 12:52:10 GMT -6 by kirko8

TAFKASP
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 12:53:54 GMT -6 via mobile PurpleKoolaid, Minniman, and 2 more like this

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Post by TAFKASP on Jan 23, 2023 12:53:54 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 12:51:42 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

the thing many fans do not get is the other team is playing too you just don't get to complete every pass you want for every amount of yardage you want on every play

Seriously? Citations required.

sudo dnf install beer

Minniman
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 14:37:35 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid likes this

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Post by Minniman on Jan 23, 2023 14:37:35 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 11:09:52 GMT -6 idavike said:

Jan 22, 2023 15:39:37 GMT -6 Minniman said:

The play design should have pushed Hock to the yard to gain.

I agree but not sure it was possible since Dexter Lawrence was in Kirk's face, no thanks to Bradbury tripping Cleveland. I believe the design was for Hock to dew an "out & up" route, unfortunately, TJ not only had to chip the DE but also got legally jammed about 4 yards up, thus throwing the whole timing of his route off. Bottom line, it was a well defended and executed play by the Giants.

While I agree on what did happen, I disagree on what should have happened.

Both Cook and Hock had low percentage routes for an 8 yard gain. That just can't happen on 4th and the season to go.

That chip didn't do anything but slow Hock down and allow him to be jammed. If he pushes that up field immediately, he could have done a 12 yard curl.

But if he was going to block, then he should have stayed back and blocked, and Cook should have run a downfield route rather than running to the flat and basically taking himself out of the play. It also didn't help that K.J. Osborn runs poor routes and can't get separation, but that is not play specific.

There is nothing wrong with the play design itself. It is a good play; it just was not a good play on 4th down and 8.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

Minniman
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 14:38:23 GMT -6 whuisman, comet52, and 1 more like this

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Post by Minniman on Jan 23, 2023 14:38:23 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 12:51:42 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

the thing many fans do not get is the other team is playing too you just don't get to complete every pass you want for every amount of yardage you want on every play

Why not? The Vikings defense allows that ... most of the time anyway.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

Minniman
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 14:39:50 GMT -6 TAFKASP likes this

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Post by Minniman on Jan 23, 2023 14:39:50 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 12:53:54 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

Jan 23, 2023 12:51:42 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

the thing many fans do not get is the other team is playing too you just don't get to complete every pass you want for every amount of yardage you want on every play

Seriously? Citations required.

I was unaware. Count me as enlightened. *coffee*

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

idavike
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 14:55:23 GMT -6 Minniman likes this

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Post by idavike on Jan 23, 2023 14:55:23 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 14:37:35 GMT -6 Minniman said:

There is nothing wrong with the play design itself. It is a good play; it just was not a good play on 4th down and 8.

It should have been ran earlier in the game when JJ threw to Kirk on that 3rd and short. *whistle*

Minniman
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The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 15:05:23 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Jan 23, 2023 15:05:23 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 14:55:23 GMT -6 idavike said:

Jan 23, 2023 14:37:35 GMT -6 Minniman said:

There is nothing wrong with the play design itself. It is a good play; it just was not a good play on 4th down and 8.

It should have been ran earlier in the game when JJ threw to Kirk on that 3rd and short. *whistle*

Perhaps.

KOC just cannot help himself with his tricky plays. We've seen that before with Bill Musgrave.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

Deleted Ghosted Member Posts: 0 Likes:	The Final Play Jan 23, 2023 19:59:46 GMT -6 Minniman likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2023 19:59:46 GMT -6 Jan 23, 2023 15:05:23 GMT -6 Minniman said: We've seen that before with Bill Musgrave. OMG! You had to go there He of the 5 play index card

Minniman
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The Final Play Jan 24, 2023 10:16:20 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Jan 24, 2023 10:16:20 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 19:59:46 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Jan 23, 2023 15:05:23 GMT -6 Minniman said:

We've seen that before with Bill Musgrave.

OMG! You had to go there *hammer*

He of the 5 play index card (roflmao)

Musgrave stopped so many drives at crucial times with his tricky plays.

I see the same thing with KOC. Complex plays are fine, but don't get too cute.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

whoskmoon
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The Final Play Jan 24, 2023 10:23:22 GMT -6 Minniman and suncoastvike like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 24, 2023 10:23:22 GMT -6

Jan 23, 2023 15:05:23 GMT -6 Minniman said:

Jan 23, 2023 14:55:23 GMT -6 idavike said:

It should have been ran earlier in the game when JJ threw to Kirk on that 3rd and short. *whistle*

Perhaps.

KOC just cannot help himself with his tricky plays. We've seen that before with Bill Musgrave.

You can get value out of trick plays even when they don't work. Doing something odd early in a game like throwing back to the QB gives the defense something extra to think about and might be used to open things up later when you give the defense the same look, but do something different.

Where I have the issue is when it was done. Do that trick play on 2nd and 1, not 3rd and 1, so that you still have a chance to pick up the first if a low percentage play fails.

Still, this was just one play and for most of that game Kevin was scheming receivers wide open and did a pretty good job.

Last Edit: Jan 24, 2023 10:23:55 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,627 Likes: 31,558 Fan Since: 1998	The Final Play Mar 14, 2023 6:52:58 GMT -6 via mobile vikadam likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Mar 14, 2023 6:52:58 GMT -6 Love how open and honest he is here.
	Last Edit: Mar 14, 2023 6:54:53 GMT -6 by Funkytown

Reignman
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The Final Play Mar 18, 2023 19:10:07 GMT -6

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Post by Reignman on Mar 18, 2023 19:10:07 GMT -6

Jan 17, 2023 19:00:50 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

you might change your mind on who is at fault for the play failure.

I always knew you were a 'stan.

Jan 18, 2023 5:38:51 GMT -6 Uncle said:

This is why the Vikings should look to upgrade the interior OL this offseason if they can.

So much for that idea, but good news, we signed a blocking TE so those chips should be extra effective this year. Might even be able to complete a 5 yard pass on 4th and 8.

Jan 18, 2023 7:45:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

It takes away so many options and I think we are seeing in these playoffs why pure pocket passers have become a thing of the past.

Well, depending on your definition of "pocket passer" they're still winning all the Super Bowls. But to the broader point, I think it would help to have a guy who can at least slide around in the pocket, escape pressure, buy time etc. It's not like Kirk is slow like Bledsoe or Brady so not sure why it never occurs to him to move around.

Jan 18, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

What about this gem?

Good lord, so much for the theory that maybe it was supposed to be a backward pass so Kirk could launch it downfield. There's nobody downfield to launch to on that side. I guess they were hoping future hall of famer KJ Osborn was going to draw the attention of 4 defenders across the field so Kirk could gallop down the sideline.

Jan 24, 2023 10:16:20 GMT -6 Minniman said:

Musgrave stopped so many drives at crucial times with his tricky plays.

I see the same thing with KOC. Complex plays are fine, but don't get too cute.

I subscribe to the idea that you shouldn't really get cute unless nothing else is working and you're struggling to move the ball. Maybe it provides a spark. That was only our 2nd drive of the game after a 12 play 75 yard TD drive to open the game. This was a 3-n-out after the Giants tied it up. The Giants would then go up 14-7 on the next drive and we would be chasing them the rest of the game.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.