The Final Play

whoskmoon
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 7:45:15 GMT -6 andhesloose28 and Uncle like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 18, 2023 7:45:15 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 5:38:51 GMT -6 Uncle said:

One thing I haven't seen anyone talk about on that final play is the fact that Kirk stood there and didn't move in the pocket at all to try and buy an extra second or two to allow himself a better option than Hockenson's "choice" route short of the sticks. Yes, Dexter Lawrence did walk-back Ezra into the pocket and allowed a pressure there, but if Kirk had some better pocket awareness there, he could step up a bit, or have moved to his right as Udoh was sustaining his block and Thibodeaux was stunting up to Kirk's left so the "step-up" window was to the right. There's no way Kirk would have picked up the first down running that way, but when you "climb the pocket" you buy some extra time.

He would have forced the defender guarding Hockenson pick between stopping Kirk from picking up the 1st or staying on Hock. It would have given the pass to Hockenson 3 yards past the line of scrimmage an actual chance to pick up the 1st and I think nearly every starting QB in Kirk's position outside of Justin Fields, would have escaped to the right in that spot. Heck, I saw Brady do that exact thing on Monday night and he can barely move.

It is part of Kirk's game that is severely lacking and is a big reason I call him a limited QB. Not having the ability/willingness to move in that spot is just as bad as not having the arm strength to accurately throw it deep. It takes away so many options and I think we are seeing in these playoffs why pure pocket passers have become a thing of the past. With Carr getting benched, Brady and Ryan likely retiring, Cousins is the last of his kind and there is a reason for that.

Uncle
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 7:52:02 GMT -6 Funkytown and andhesloose28 like this

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Post by Uncle on Jan 18, 2023 7:52:02 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 7:45:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

It takes away so many options and I think we are seeing in these playoffs why pure pocket passers have become a thing of the past.

Can't agree enough and it's why I'm not as high on the Tanner McKee's and Aiden O'Connell's in this year's QB Draft Class as some "experts" are.

You don't have to have the athleticism of Hurts, Fields or Lamar to be an effective QB in the NFL, but it's becoming increasingly evident that having the ability to play "off-script" sometimes and having the mobility to escape pocket pressure is almost a "must" for becoming an effective NFL starting QB. I tend to call it the "Joe Burrow" level of mobility, but even QB's in their 30's like Aaron Rodgers still have ability to play off-script when the initial design/reads break down.

Last Edit: Jan 18, 2023 7:52:18 GMT -6 by Uncle

andhesloose28
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 7:52:41 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jan 18, 2023 7:52:41 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 7:45:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 18, 2023 5:38:51 GMT -6 Uncle said:

One thing I haven't seen anyone talk about on that final play is the fact that Kirk stood there and didn't move in the pocket at all to try and buy an extra second or two to allow himself a better option than Hockenson's "choice" route short of the sticks. Yes, Dexter Lawrence did walk-back Ezra into the pocket and allowed a pressure there, but if Kirk had some better pocket awareness there, he could step up a bit, or have moved to his right as Udoh was sustaining his block and Thibodeaux was stunting up to Kirk's left so the "step-up" window was to the right. There's no way Kirk would have picked up the first down running that way, but when you "climb the pocket" you buy some extra time.

He would have forced the defender guarding Hockenson pick between stopping Kirk from picking up the 1st or staying on Hock. It would have given the pass to Hockenson 3 yards past the line of scrimmage an actual chance to pick up the 1st and I think nearly every starting QB in Kirk's position outside of Justin Fields, would have escaped to the right in that spot. Heck, I saw Brady do that exact thing on Monday night and he can barely move.

It is part of Kirk's game that is severely lacking and is a big reason I call him a limited QB. Not having the ability/willingness to move in that spot is just as bad as not having the arm strength to accurately throw it deep. It takes away so many options and I think we are seeing in these playoffs why pure pocket passers have become a thing of the past. With Carr getting benched, Brady and Ryan likely retiring, Cousins is the last of his kind and there is a reason for that.

Well said. And it honestly goes back to bringing in Kirk in 2018. Rick just thought bringing in a better QB we were going to get over the hump. Didnt think of the logistics of a terrible Oline and defensive minded coach. So since then we have been trying to build a line which still isnt perfect in the interior , all while not getting a quality starter on defense since 2015!!! To be clear im not even just bashing Kirk he balled out this year but he does have limits I can admit that as well and we saw that on that last play. I just wish they would've built this thing right and I thought it was a perfect opportunity last year but they are so worried about losing JJ and tickets that was never even an option. Just here we are now giving ourselves little leeway in the offseason and drafts so we can try and remain "competitive"

Uncle
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 8:02:47 GMT -6 HunterMorrow and andhesloose28 like this

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Post by Uncle on Jan 18, 2023 8:02:47 GMT -6

...and one last point on the "mobility" / off-script thought: I know some people will point to Matthew Stafford and say, "he's a pocket passer in his 30's and he won a Super Bowl w/ the Rams just last season so that proves you don't need mobility in a QB in today's NFL", and my response to that to look at the Rams OL during the 2021 regular & postseason - they all played at a really high level for that season and was one of the key factors to them making that postseason run and allowing Stafford and the offense to have the success they did.

Rams 2021 starting OL PFF grades (for 2021 season):

LT Andrew Whitworth: 86.1 overall, 71.2 RB, 90.7 PB
LG David Edwards: 66.9 overall, 64.0 RB, 70.1 PB
OC Brian Allen: 80.2 overall, 87.4 RB, 63.5 PB
RG Austin Corbett: 68.8 overall, 67.4 RB, 63.8 PB
RT Rob Havenstein: 81.5 overall, 79.4 RB, 76.1 PB

There just wasn't a weak link overall on that 2021 Rams OL and they had them all healthy through the majority of the regular and postseason.

Yes, the defense certainly needs to be upgraded, but if we're going to continue to roll Kirk for the near future, I think it's prudent for Kwesi & O'Connell to try and get the same level of OL play out of the 2023+ Vikings OL as the 2021 Rams did in theirs...

MidwinterViking
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 8:06:54 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by MidwinterViking on Jan 18, 2023 8:06:54 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 3:54:47 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Jan 17, 2023 22:15:28 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

It's a bit subtle, but Warner seems to take a shot at KJ Osborn's route running when he says he can't tell what the route is and how he should have cut it off flatter.

That was one thing I took out of it also, along with Waner suggesting the play design doesn't give the QB enough options.

That second part is also a huge deal that I think has been completely overlooked. Prior to the 2022 season Jefferson had a comment about Cooper Kupp along the lined of "That guy was open all the time." The implication was that under OConnell, the Rams used a variety of formations and creative route combinations to scheme people open. Not just Kupp, but Van Jefferson was a dangerous deep threat, and Robert Woods, Van Jefferson and Tyler Higbee played specific effective roles. I didn't really see that very often with the 2022 Vikings.

It was also assumed that since Kevin O'Connell designed and implemented the offense and passing scheme for the 2020 and 2021 Rams (McVay just called it), that the same scheme and concepts would be seen here. So I have to ask: why weren't they? That play has none of the hallmarks of the 2021 Rams.
- Jefferson is not lined up in any kind of position to make him difficult to cover
- No players are clearing out space for Jefferson so a second defender can just sit on top of him (This was the entire point of my Deep Shots with KJ Osborn thread)
- No players are taking advantage of medium depth space opened up under Jefferson
- There is no synergy between the routes of Osborn and Thielen
- Cook barely even runs a route, he just drifts out into the flat where a defender has him lined up; he could make a guy miss, but this isn't setting him up for run after the catch. (This was a recurring theme for the entire season, I saw very little effort to get the ball to Cook in space, it was all check downs and screens)

If Keven O'Connell was designing the offense for the 2021 Rams as OC, I wonder if he was relying on Wes Phillips to design the offense as OC for the 2022 Vikings. That would be a more like for like change in roles and explain the lack of creativity in the 2022 Vikings offense. The leads me to two things:
#1 - I think Wes Philips should get more scrutiny, a lot more.
#2 - Kevin O'Connell needs to be more hands on with the offensive scheme design (if he's not already)

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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -6 via mobile PurpleKoolaid likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Jan 18, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -6

What about this gem?

KO has a tendency to get a lil too cute at times. Sometimes it's okay to just do the obvious thing!

If we need a few yards, guys run deep! If we need 8 yards, guys run short or too deep! Why not just get the yardage for the first and get a new set of downs? No need to try to get an explosive play in those moments. Drives me nuts.

mngopher35
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 10:33:25 GMT -6 via mobile Dynalee10 and andhesloose28 like this

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Post by mngopher35 on Jan 18, 2023 10:33:25 GMT -6

That play above was maybe the worst call of the year (and there were some head scratchers all season). I agree KOC seems to get too cute at times when a simple play would often work.

As for the final play, it just feels like the epitome of cousins time here along with playing into the narratives around him. It definitely wasn’t all his fault but as the qb making a lot of money you can’t make that throw/decision. It’s not his fault alone we have one playoff win since he has been here but he is part of the issue in some ways (which are amplified for QBs, just like his role in this play). The play before this one if he leads Osborne we might not even be evaluating this play but the throw was behind him allowing the defender to get an arm in there and break it up. Without getting into the previous plays (or the previous drive when we went 3 and out) here’s how I view it:

The play call should have had at least one more option that wasn’t a wr running way downfield. There should have been at least 2 looks past the first down line but not going deep. So right there you really limit his options if the two downfield routes are guarded like they were.

Osborne did not run a great route as Warner gets at. That made it a bit tougher of a play to target him. It should have been a cleaner route run.

With that said the qb has to be smarter, after seeing the play design everyone should know the main target and it had a chance despite what was already mentioned. If cousins moves just a little bit he has plenty of time even if not really threatening with his feet. As is he could have pulled the trigger to Osborne in anticipation at the same time he made the throw he chose. It would have been a risk but at least gives us a real chance. So while there were issues outside of cousins he still had a chance to make a play but couldn’t and the decision he made is always going to bring criticism.

Last Edit: Jan 18, 2023 10:36:01 GMT -6 by mngopher35

andhesloose28
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 10:58:34 GMT -6 HunterMorrow and mngopher35 like this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Jan 18, 2023 10:58:34 GMT -6

This was a very flawed 13 win team if you didnt see that by the Dallas game and on you are just a homer. Kevin 100% gets too cute in those short down situations im sure that will be a big focus on him in the offseason if all of us can see it I think he can. You can blame the play call all you want on that last play and maybe it shouldn't be called since Kirk is your QB, but Kirk has to be able to move as well. Im not comparing the two Kirk is a better QB but to make a reference, Case Kennum is not taking a sack there or throwing short of the sticks. Yes the Oline interior is not good but 80% of starting QBs are not throwing that ball short of the sticks. Kirk Cousins wants to be compared to what Josh Dobbs did? There is pressure in your face move then. Like Uncle said if this is your QB then you need that very good Oline, Kirk is not going to change this late in his career. And to finish it off, Kirk did not lose us that game as well. The defense is terrible we would've got throttled in San Fran. All can be true if your not a biased person.

PurpleKoolaid
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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 12:34:43 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Jan 18, 2023 12:34:43 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

What about this gem?

KO has a tendency to get a lil too cute at times. Sometimes it's okay to just do the obvious thing!

If we need a few yards, guys run deep! If we need 8 yards, guys run short or too deep! Why not just get the yardage for the first and get a new set of downs? No need to try to get an explosive play in those moments. Drives me nuts.

If KO was trying to hurt Cousins and get him out of the game, this is the absolute perfect play.

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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 14:19:07 GMT -6

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Post by SiteWolf on Jan 18, 2023 14:19:07 GMT -6

I dream weird...like often..which surprises noone that knows me well. Last night's dream? We did a sign and trade sending Cousins to Baltimore for Lamar. Problem is, my dream extended to 2025 where the view was we'd had a lot of offensive success with Lamar, but he'd just suffered a potentially career ending injury by still being Lamar...and still had a lot of guaranteed money left on his deal.

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The Final Play Jan 18, 2023 18:50:15 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Danchat on Jan 18, 2023 18:50:15 GMT -6

Jan 18, 2023 8:27:23 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

KO has a tendency to get a lil too cute at times. Sometimes it's okay to just do the obvious thing!

If we need a few yards, guys run deep! If we need 8 yards, guys run short or too deep! Why not just get the yardage for the first and get a new set of downs? No need to try to get an explosive play in those moments. Drives me nuts.

I assumed there were more options downfield... I said in the Game Thread that I was OK with the call, but I now rescind that. It was a bad play design and an abysmal spot to call the play. Heck, maybe Jefferson should have thrown it deep to Osborn, or else if they ever run that play again it should with be with a player who can make that throw (a Taysom Hill-like player). Ugh.

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The Final Play Jan 19, 2023 14:54:21 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by FSUVike on Jan 19, 2023 14:54:21 GMT -6

Why does everyone assume Kevin was bringing the Rams Offense to Minnesota?

Remember, he designed plays WITHIN the constraints of the McVay System. Just as McVay designed plays within the constraints of the Shanahan/Kubiak System.

Sean McVay doesn't strike me as a guy that would say 'design whatever you want, I'll just call the plays'.

These are all bright minds. Kevin O'Connell may very well have designed his own Offense within his own parameters. And those parameters could be different than what McVay and Kyle Shanahan operate under.

He sure as heck calls way fewer East/West plays than any Shanahan/McVay purveyor. His screens are terrible, which is a major staple of that scheme.

He's got a decent ways to go as a Playcaller and as a Play Designer. No doubt about that.

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The Final Play Jan 21, 2023 22:53:42 GMT -6

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Post by idavike on Jan 21, 2023 22:53:42 GMT -6

Play calling aside on this last play, there is one thing I noticed that bothers me about Osborn.

Warner quietly calls out KJ on this play and the previous 3rd down-play. Basically, KJ's routes on both plays are "rounded." When KJ does this, he allows the DB to regain ground and loses any separation he had gotten from the cut inside. Thus, he becomes his own enemy and takes himself out as an option for Kirk. The previous 3rd down-play he did this and we all saw the DB dislodge the ball as it hit him in the numbers. It's problematic.

For route running this is basic fundamentals taught at minimum the college level. But it takes discipline and repetition to master this technique. Thielen was expectational at this a couple of years back and is still good at it for short-intermediate routes. Might want to keep this in mind this offseason as some think that KJ can step up and become WR3, especially since we are talking about the Vikings keeping a pure pocket passer, Kirk Cousins, for another year or two.

jean74 Ball Boy Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas! Posts: 79 Likes: 19	The Final Play Jan 21, 2023 22:57:26 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by jean74 on Jan 21, 2023 22:57:26 GMT -6 Need to really beef up your defense. As that they need all the help they can get. They realize that defense wins you championships as well as that over in the games. You lost the game as your defense was not all there.
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kirko8
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The Final Play Jan 22, 2023 11:21:17 GMT -6

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Post by kirko8 on Jan 22, 2023 11:21:17 GMT -6

Ok Kurt Warner broke down the play and said it was NOT Kirk's fault it was a terrible play call. BTW KOC made a number of bad playcalls over the year even in that game right towards the end... 2 screen passes one to TJ (we had trouble with screens all year) and throw out to the flat.

Anyway when a QB has to thrown he doesn't have the luxury of still photos to look at or slowed down motion ... and in Kirk's case on that play the pocket was collapsing he didn't have time to go back to people on the route tree if he holds on for a mili second more he gets sacked.

Let's be clear no matter what he did he would be attacked because they love bashing Kirk.

1 He could have held onto the ball a half second longer so TJ could get further up the field but he would have been SACKED. The DT had hands on him as it was.

2 KOC did a bad job last month getting JJ open. JJ was triple covered on the last play. Yes I know he made the Buffalo catch but that is a once on a lifetime catch that's the point you don't make that catch once every game you're lucky to get it once in a lifetime. I watched numerous games this year where Kirk forced it into a double covered JJ and the defender knocked it down let alone a triple covered JJ.

3 Theilan was essentally useless on that play he ran a deep sideline route on the other sideline. As Warner pointed out Kirk would not really be able to get the ball to him.

4 KJ when Kirk looked at him in his progressions was covered. KJ has terrible getting separation and fighting for a ball in a tight space which he had just showed on a previous play.

5 Cook was doing nothing around the line of scrimmage.

6 TJ was by then the only choice although having him chip on that play a KOC decision slowed him down again why KOC. TJ had broken plays for YAC all game all season so it was either that or get sacked...

By the way I have watched football for 50 years you can design numerous plays were every receiver is at the chains (you can send one deep) look at the plays NYG called all game with deeper slants and mesh routes etc... a late releasing Cook etc etc etc A play were you had 5 receivers available instead of in this case 2 receivers available that is all on KOC (and to be fair KOC knows we have terrible Guards and Center on the team he needs to know that Kirk will not have much time the play called also has to be quick hitting).