Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group

PurpleKoolaid
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 13, 2022 8:50:33 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Dec 13, 2022 8:50:33 GMT -6

Dec 13, 2022 5:07:50 GMT -6 SiteWolf said:

Dec 13, 2022 0:42:16 GMT -6 Reignman said:

It's incredible how many of you pretend you want this useless franchise to win a Super Bowl, or think it can, but then accept that they got steam rolled by a hot 6-7 team in December lol. Perhaps we need to change the low expectations marching cry from "at least we're not Detroit" to "I wish we were Detroit"? Do moral victories fill the trophy case? I don't care how tough some opponent is, the playoffs will be full of tough opponents.

Either this team is championship caliber or it's not. If it is, I don't care how hot the Lions are, losing to them should be unacceptable with San Francisco breathing down your neck. But yeah, good luck with that divisional round game in Santa Clara. This team is always such a failure in the playoffs because it can't take care of business in the regular season to secure home playoff games.

No, what's incredible is that you've lived however many years you've lived and still don't understand the very definition of what it means to be a fan. You prefer spending your time trying to tear down every single thing the team does, while most of us try to view the team in a positive light. Not one of us has said...all season...that this is a SB caliber team. Not once. We have, however, enjoyed the wins, however they've come, because that's what fans do. You seem to think viewing the Vikings with purple glasses means we don't know the team has flaws when in reality viewing them with purple glasses simply means 'this is our team, we're hopeful each week that we have enough to get a win, but we know no team wins every game'

If it makes you feel better to take the Ricky Bobby 'if you ain't first, you last' mindset, that's your choice. It's just not mine.

Good fan, Bad fan again, yay!

Raptorman
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6

Dec 12, 2022 22:06:15 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Dec 12, 2022 21:58:49 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

That’s right. Because any argument I make now is automatically a straw man argument if you or Reigman don’t approve of it.

It's a straw man argument because nobody else was making it (at least on this site), which is why you had to post it yourself because you wanted to show how silly it would have been to blame Kirk for the loss. And your claim is patently false, I have disagreed with other arguments of yours without calling them straw men, we've agreed to disagree several times before.

So what’s changed? Come on, if I’m wrong point out games from the last two years that Cousins did just as well where he wasn’t blamed for the loss. This should be easy for you. But you won’t. Almost every game they lost the last two years all I heard is how bad cousins sucks. How they will never win with him at QB. Oh what was my argument? The defense plays a big role in wins and losses. Then I’m told the QB helps the defense by keeping the offense on the field longer. Brady is the prime example. He was one of the main reason the defense in NE was good for 20 years. Now all of sudden it’s all the defense fault for not winning. So come on, pull up the games from the last few years where cousins had similar numbers and they lost and show us that he wasn’t blamed for the losses.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

Purple Pain
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 13, 2022 9:30:15 GMT -6

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Post by Purple Pain on Dec 13, 2022 9:30:15 GMT -6

Dec 13, 2022 8:47:36 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Right, you wouldnt mind a child rapist living next to you if you had daughters right?

Guys, this stuff doesn't need to be brought up with such regularity in Vikings Talk. Here is a thread if you must.

Purple Pain
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 13, 2022 9:37:00 GMT -6

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Post by Purple Pain on Dec 13, 2022 9:37:00 GMT -6

SkolSmith: 5 Numbers That Tell the Story Of the Vikings-Lions Game

With zero total sacks and takeaways, it shouldn’t be much of a surprise that the Vikings failed to slow down the Lions’ offense. Next Gen Stats measures average separation from the QB, a stat showing how close defenders are to a quarterback when the ball is released. The league average is 4.53 yards. Only D.J. Wonnum had an above-average output here, with an average separation of 3.55 yards. The Vikings have only accumulated four sacks over their past four games.

Meanwhile, things weren’t much better in the secondary. In their “game center,” Next Gen Stats charted five Lions receivers who met or exceeded the league average of 2.93 yards. This chart didn’t include Williams, who had the wide-open touchdown to kick off the scoring.

After forcing at least one turnover through the first nine games of the season, the Vikings have failed to force a turnover in three of their past four outings. Perhaps it’s no surprise that they have only been 2-2 in these games, hanging on by the skin of their teeth before a game-sealing interception in Week 13 against the Jets.

Danchat
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 13, 2022 18:49:37 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by Danchat on Dec 13, 2022 18:49:37 GMT -6

Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

if I’m wrong point out games from the last two years that Cousins did just as well where he wasn’t blamed for the loss. This should be easy for you. But you won’t.

I won't? Is this some reverse psychology to make we want to dig this up? ...because it's working!

When I have some more free time I'll do some digging on this, I do wonder how many games Kirk has put up 400+ yards, 2+ TDs, and a 120+ passer rating and we still lost.

Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Almost every game they lost the last two years all I heard is how bad cousins sucks. How they will never win with him at QB.

Hear from who and where? There hasn't been much Kirk hate on this website since his extension in March outside of a few users whose shtick who can't help but say 'f*** kIrK cOUsInS' whenever he makes the slightest mistake. Even the media has tempered on him, outside of a few idiots like Stephen A still hating on him. Are you seeking out Kirk hate on Twitter or something? I follow Funky on Twitter, and I mostly just see positive Vikings tweets and basically never see any hate. Note that I'm not claiming it doesn't exist, the point is that you can easily find yourself in an echo chamber.

So far this year there's only been one game where people were at Kirk's throat (vs Eagles), the other two losses have seen a very tiny amount of Cousins blame compared to blame for the other positions on the team.

Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Oh what was my argument? The defense plays a big role in wins and losses.

I completely agree with you, no straw men to be found here!

Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Then I’m told the QB helps the defense by keeping the offense on the field longer.

Yeah, what's controversial about that? The defense can also help the offense by forcing 3-and-outs, causing turnovers that force a short field for the offense to travel... it's a mutual relationship, momentum from one side of the ball can affect the other. The Patriots under B&B won so many games because they had an offense that made things easy for the defense, and a defense that made things easier for the offense.

Dec 13, 2022 9:20:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Now all of sudden it’s all the defense fault for not winning.

That's the first I've heard of it, could I see a source or two? Most blame I have heard has been on Mac Jones / OC Matt Patricia, and I've casted some blame on Belichick for being an overall crappy drafter for the past 3-5 years. (Once again, I'm not straw-manning you, I legitimately haven't heard this and I'm curious to hear who is casting the main blame on the 5th best defense by points allowed.)

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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 13, 2022 20:11:28 GMT -6 Purple Pain and suncoastvike like this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2022 20:11:28 GMT -6

Dec 13, 2022 9:30:15 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Dec 13, 2022 8:47:36 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Right, you wouldnt mind a child rapist living next to you if you had daughters right?

Guys, this stuff doesn't need to be brought up with such regularity in Vikings Talk. Here is a thread if you must.

SiteWolf PurpleKoolaid

Please take the advice offered above and move on, don't derail the thread!

Purple Pain
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 14, 2022 8:10:43 GMT -6 Reignman and Danchat like this

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Post by Purple Pain on Dec 14, 2022 8:10:43 GMT -6

Dec 13, 2022 18:49:37 GMT -6 Danchat said:

When I have some more free time I'll do some digging on this, I do wonder how many games Kirk has put up 400+ yards, 2+ TDs, and a 120+ passer rating and we still lost.

Not exactly what you were looking for, but here is this:

Raptorman
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 14, 2022 9:25:36 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 14, 2022 9:25:36 GMT -6

Dec 14, 2022 8:10:43 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Dec 13, 2022 18:49:37 GMT -6 Danchat said:

When I have some more free time I'll do some digging on this, I do wonder how many games Kirk has put up 400+ yards, 2+ TDs, and a 120+ passer rating and we still lost.

Not exactly what you were looking for, but here is this:

And here you go. Cousins sucks. Let's take a closer look at some of these records.

Brady, Average score of the other team when he won 24.6, When he lost, 38.6
Mahomes, average score of other team when he won, 18.2, when he lost 44.5
Burrow. average score of other team when he won, 21.5, when he lost 37
Allen average score of other team when he won, 21.6 , when he lost 21
Goff, average score of other team when he won, 29.6, when he lost 55

Cousins. average score of other team when he won, 35, when he lost or tied 32.6

Cousins sucks.

If you notice, they always compare Cousins to QB that are known for winning. Let's add Stafford to the Mix. Game over 400 yards, 10, record 4-6. Average score of other teams when he won, 32.7, when he lost 32. None of those games happened since he left for the Rams. But look at his wins since he has been with the Rams, average ppg for the other team in his wins is 17.5, in his losses in LA. 28 ppg. But he sucks right? All those years in Detroit, he couldn't help the defense with his play. Goes to LA and magically he can help their defense, at least until people started getting hurt.

I have been nothing but consistent with this through the years. The Defense will make or break any team. The QB plays an important role, does he help the defense? Yes to some extent, by having long drives and not turning the ball over. But at the same time, the QB cannot carry a team on a regular basis, it just doesn't happen. One, maybe two or three games during the the year, but not the season.

It's a lot easier to win when you only have to cover 18 ppg. Just ask Tom Brady.

Last Edit: Dec 14, 2022 10:10:29 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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Uncle
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 14, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by Uncle on Dec 14, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6

One last note on the Lions game and Detroit's 2022 season in general: remember, when we traded for Hockenson, we swapped 2023 Draft picks - our 2nd for their 4th. At the time of the trade, Detroit was drafting inside the Top 5 so that 4th Rd pick we got back was essentially near the top of Day 3...

...but now that Detroit is on a roll, that 4th Rd pick continues to fall further down and the "draft value" return worsens a bit...

Hockenson's on-field production will hopefully negate any draft positional value, but for those of us that like to squeeze-out every little value we can out of a trade, Detroit losing more than they win for the remainder of the season "helps" that 4th Rd pick we have gain more value...

vikingpwr
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 14, 2022 23:24:49 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Dec 14, 2022 23:24:49 GMT -6

Dec 14, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6 Uncle said:

One last note on the Lions game and Detroit's 2022 season in general: remember, when we traded for Hockenson, we swapped 2023 Draft picks - our 2nd for their 4th. At the time of the trade, Detroit was drafting inside the Top 5 so that 4th Rd pick we got back was essentially near the top of Day 3...

...but now that Detroit is on a roll, that 4th Rd pick continues to fall further down and the "draft value" return worsens a bit...

Hockenson's on-field production will hopefully negate any draft positional value, but for those of us that like to squeeze-out every little value we can out of a trade, Detroit losing more than they win for the remainder of the season "helps" that 4th Rd pick we have gain more value...

Well according to the media the Lions are going to win the SB now so the value of that 4th isn't going to make some on here happy. Oh well.............

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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 14, 2022 23:45:58 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Dec 14, 2022 23:45:58 GMT -6

Dec 14, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6 Uncle said:

One last note on the Lions game and Detroit's 2022 season in general: remember, when we traded for Hockenson, we swapped 2023 Draft picks - our 2nd for their 4th. At the time of the trade, Detroit was drafting inside the Top 5 so that 4th Rd pick we got back was essentially near the top of Day 3...

...but now that Detroit is on a roll, that 4th Rd pick continues to fall further down and the "draft value" return worsens a bit...

Hockenson's on-field production will hopefully negate any draft positional value, but for those of us that like to squeeze-out every little value we can out of a trade, Detroit losing more than they win for the remainder of the season "helps" that 4th Rd pick we have gain more value...

Good point, though the location of a 4th round pick really isn't a big deal. If it were a 2nd rounder, I'd be more concerned.

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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 15, 2022 7:23:06 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 15, 2022 7:23:06 GMT -6

Dec 14, 2022 9:25:36 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Dec 14, 2022 8:10:43 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Not exactly what you were looking for, but here is this:

And here you go. Cousins sucks. Let's take a closer look at some of these records.

Brady, Average score of the other team when he won 24.6, When he lost, 38.6
Mahomes, average score of other team when he won, 18.2, when he lost 44.5
Burrow. average score of other team when he won, 21.5, when he lost 37
Allen average score of other team when he won, 21.6 , when he lost 21
Goff, average score of other team when he won, 29.6, when he lost 55

Cousins. average score of other team when he won, 35, when he lost or tied 32.6

Cousins sucks.

If you notice, they always compare Cousins to QB that are known for winning. Let's add Stafford to the Mix. Game over 400 yards, 10, record 4-6. Average score of other teams when he won, 32.7, when he lost 32. None of those games happened since he left for the Rams. But look at his wins since he has been with the Rams, average ppg for the other team in his wins is 17.5, in his losses in LA. 28 ppg. But he sucks right? All those years in Detroit, he couldn't help the defense with his play. Goes to LA and magically he can help their defense, at least until people started getting hurt.

I have been nothing but consistent with this through the years. The Defense will make or break any team. The QB plays an important role, does he help the defense? Yes to some extent, by having long drives and not turning the ball over. But at the same time, the QB cannot carry a team on a regular basis, it just doesn't happen. One, maybe two or three games during the the year, but not the season.

It's a lot easier to win when you only have to cover 18 ppg. Just ask Tom Brady.

I thought these excuses were dead and buried with the 10-3 record, but here we are.

Typically when a QB puts up a lot of yards, they win football games because the offense puts up a lot of points. Kirk hasn't won a lot in that situation because when he has done it, the offense has scored fewer points than most.

Cousins offenses when he throws for 400+ yards: 28.1 (we put up 23 in the loss on Sunday)
Brady's offenses: 35.8 (lost his only game where he put up less than 25 points).

Rodgers has lost every game he has failed to put up 30+ points in that situation. Same with Drew Brees who was .500 in games he threw for 400+

A lousy defense and lack of scoring early can result in bigtime passing stats in losses. Something your stats above actually prove.

andhesloose28
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 15, 2022 11:43:33 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 15, 2022 11:43:33 GMT -6

Dec 14, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6 Uncle said:

One last note on the Lions game and Detroit's 2022 season in general: remember, when we traded for Hockenson, we swapped 2023 Draft picks - our 2nd for their 4th. At the time of the trade, Detroit was drafting inside the Top 5 so that 4th Rd pick we got back was essentially near the top of Day 3...

...but now that Detroit is on a roll, that 4th Rd pick continues to fall further down and the "draft value" return worsens a bit...

Hockenson's on-field production will hopefully negate any draft positional value, but for those of us that like to squeeze-out every little value we can out of a trade, Detroit losing more than they win for the remainder of the season "helps" that 4th Rd pick we have gain more value...

Either way the trade is looking worse by the day just based on our defense. At the time of the trade we were a legit contender and I loved going for, now I would say not so much even with still the #2 seed. This has nothing to do with Hock as we probably would have lost 2 more games at least if he wasnt here. Hes a huge part of the O and opens up everything for JJ. When you think of trying to rebuild that defense the 2nd and 3rd round picks are massive. I get it Hock will be here and probably a big part of the future with JJ but at what cost? Doesnt seem like the defense is fixable even in a season. Even if and this is a huge IF with no real promise so far : Cine, Asamoah or one of the rookie CBs pan out there is still a lot of holes and even more when you think of the age of the players starting now. Any encouraging words to give me hope Uncle?

andhesloose28
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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 15, 2022 11:47:07 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 15, 2022 11:47:07 GMT -6

Dec 14, 2022 23:45:58 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Dec 14, 2022 18:50:49 GMT -6 Uncle said:

One last note on the Lions game and Detroit's 2022 season in general: remember, when we traded for Hockenson, we swapped 2023 Draft picks - our 2nd for their 4th. At the time of the trade, Detroit was drafting inside the Top 5 so that 4th Rd pick we got back was essentially near the top of Day 3...

...but now that Detroit is on a roll, that 4th Rd pick continues to fall further down and the "draft value" return worsens a bit...

Hockenson's on-field production will hopefully negate any draft positional value, but for those of us that like to squeeze-out every little value we can out of a trade, Detroit losing more than they win for the remainder of the season "helps" that 4th Rd pick we have gain more value...

Good point, though the location of a 4th round pick really isn't a big deal. If it were a 2nd rounder, I'd be more concerned.

I dont really agree with that at all and I think Kwesi was banking on it as well. That location is huge because its ammo to move up which Im sure he is going to try and do to get back into the third or second. They were sitting at 1-6 and a very unfavorable schedule coming up on paper at least. That positioning was 100% in Kwesis mind at the trade. We we almost 100% be trading out of the first next year I would think now. There is just too many holes on defense to only have a 1st rounder and then nothing until the 4th now.

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Week 14 - Vikings @ Lions Support Group Dec 15, 2022 12:47:20 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Danchat on Dec 15, 2022 12:47:20 GMT -6

Dec 15, 2022 11:47:07 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 14, 2022 23:45:58 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Good point, though the location of a 4th round pick really isn't a big deal. If it were a 2nd rounder, I'd be more concerned.

I dont really agree with that at all and I think Kwesi was banking on it as well. That location is huge because its ammo to move up which Im sure he is going to try and do to get back into the third or second. They were sitting at 1-6 and a very unfavorable schedule coming up on paper at least. That positioning was 100% in Kwesis mind at the trade. We we almost 100% be trading out of the first next year I would think now. There is just too many holes on defense to only have a 1st rounder and then nothing until the 4th now.

True, though banking on either a high or low 4th rounder in his rookie year is folly, when’s the last time a Vikings 4th rounder played a big role his rookie year? The only major positive example I can find in recent history is Brian Robison with 4.5 sacks.

They’re going to patch holes with veteran players… unless KAM suddenly has a dynamite draft class out of nowhere.