[OC] If Stafford Can Do It....

Kirk actually has let the front office move his pay around to help cap situations on more than one occasion.  That said, if I were performing at a high level despite toxic coaching and other departments failing to pull their weight...my response to a request for a pay cut would be a pair of wholesome middle fingers.

Granted, the odds of him taking an actual pay cut are the same as his hate club putting the same energy and vitriol into hacking on the 30th (31st?) rated defense or the nearly as badly rated o-line as they do snapping at the QB who's rated much, much higher.  Yeah, about the same likelihood.

What are these "hate" clubs? Who is in them? Are they bad people? Bad fans? 

Yes, I've been very consistent about moving on from Cousins. He is too expensive for the value he adds. I hoped the Vikings would develop Mond in 2021 and trade Cousins in 2022. Zimmer obviously did not develop Mond; Mond got Covid last August, he lost weight, and he landed in Zimmer's doghouse. Maybe Mond was already there when he was drafted by Spielman.

I've also been consistent about not blaming Cousins for all of the Vikings' underachievement since 2017. I think the Vikings have had multiple problems since 2017, and an expensive Cousins is only one of them. Coaching, play-calling, historically bad last 2-minute defense, injuries to Hunter and other key defenders, weak pass defense and weak run defense, poor drafts, not developing enough players, and a weak interior O-Line are all problems that have been documented on this board.

You asserted that "Kirk is the problem and has been the problem for years". If you read the threads on this board, you know the Vikings have had far more problems than just Kirk Cousins.

I'm neither a "hater" nor a "lover" of Cousins, but I do believe that a best-case 2022 Vikings team can contend with Cousins. I define contend as winning the NFC North and competing in and winning multiple playoff games. Because lesser QBs have won Conference Championships and Super Bowls, I think it is possible for Cousins to do the same. To me, possible does not mean likely.

The crux of the debate is that you and others have concluded the Vikings cannot contend with Cousins. I respect your position, and I disagree. The supposed "lovers" of Cousins believe it is possible for the Vikings to contend with Cousins. And most of us want the Vikings to move on to another QB when it makes sense to do so.

To be fair he also said Zimmer wasn't the "only" problem seemingly implying he was also an issue.

I just wanted to focus on the bold, I agree fully. The point I am often making in pointing out where this team is at with Cousins and his issues is to note that we have a very small chance of truly reaching that high level you get at. Anything is possible technically so it's not just saying that we can't win with him, it's that the odds are way too low to keep pushing forward with that route. It's about wanting to create a team that has a better/decent chance instead of it not being likely. 

So I'm not even sure that's really the crux of the debate around him. The main debate for me (when someone is willing to actually engage instead of the BS I was pointing out earlier from some) comes down moreso to where to rank him and how good our chances are with him etc. but often that takes analysis/data/discussion instead of what happens here.

In just sticking to the bolded part. The Vikings have won more with statically lesser QB's. Winning divisions in 2015 and 2017 making it to a conference title game. We've not won one division since. That's the what's happened part of now to me. Not only haven't we been in contention for the division. We've been out of it by Halloween all but one year. That year we had a chance to push the Packers at least till the final week but Kirk had a terrible Ponder like 130 yard performance in letting then take the division on our field. Big moment big let down. Win and in against the Bears resting everyone.  Same result.  Those kind of games take getting over...obviously. However it's been his big game mantra that makes one wonder if he's capable of 3 big games against top competition to do what other lesser QB's have. 

That's pretty slanted.... And quite redundant. Again if you actually read the words I type it says I agreed with a lot of what you said. Both sides have valid points. My stance was we are not disqualified for competing for a championship because Kirk Cousins is our QB.

Ya I agree and at the end of the day we all are hoping he is capable despite some of the flaws being pointed out. KOC is being asked a lot of for a rookie head coach IMO but if he is the real deal as I said in the other thread I think we have the talent for a top 5 offense. That includes Kirk at QB, I don't think Mannion/Mond get us close lol.

As has been covered he can generally execute plays pretty well if it's easier for him (first read open for example). He can get the ball there if given a clear option and time so hopefully KOC helps do that (changing plays at line, easy decisions/open wr's, ways to buy time where it's natural for Kirk as opposed to a rush and needing to step up, play calling in general etc.)

Scheme alone won't get it done come playoff time against good teams. As you get at even if we do churn out 11 wins that aspect you note makes people wonder if he can win 3+ big games will be there. Hopefully he is in the position to prove people wrong this year but you can understand why the odds feel a bit low to many like I was getting at overall.