Having serious doubts about KAM already?

kirko8
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by kirko8 on Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6

Of course I don't want close games the reasons we had so many close games last year:
-#31 defense
-the 2 worst Pass Pro Guards in football and a weak C resulting in Kirk taking the most sacks of his career and the most hits of any Qb ever
-a weak run game
-mistakes by a first time playcaller
-no legit #2 WR /Deep threat to take pressure off JJ
-shakey ST if some of those FGs and PATs are hit the games are not that close

I LOVE when people bring up Case Keenum Case Keenum could NOT win a starting job in the NFL he is a complete journeyman QB who had 1 good year. Kirk meanwhile has been a steady starting QB for years and has records that match all time players like Brees and Rivers.

BUT Duke Shelley does fit Flores scheme he is a MAN COVER CB and was one of the top 2 in the NFL last year... he saves your season he beat out Booth before Booth got hurt and you demand he takes minimum that is dumb as fck.Throw him a couple 100k if anyone earned it in the history of the NFL it was Duke Shelley and oh yeah his TEAMMATES loved him.. terrible precident to set if you ball out and become great we will still treat you bad.

Love people saying Keenum is better than Kirk why can't Keenum win a starting job is Keenum #8 rated QB of all time, do Keenum's records match Brees Rivers etc like Kirk's do does Keenum have 32 4th Quarter Clutch comebacks. Typical Kirk hater prefer Keenum meanwhile Keenum doesn't come close to sniffing Kirk's stature. Even noted Kirk hater Mackey said Kirk is 1 SB win away from the HoF would Keenum be lol.

Kirk has never been overpaid and now he is underpaid and the reality is his money has never kept us form winning a SB. Rams did it with Kirk like Stafford. Mahomes did it with rebuilt OL. Our OLs have been among the worst in the NFL we could have had Mahomes here with these OL he doesn't win either Kirk took the most hits of any QB in the last 5 years. You know what KC did they completely rebuilt their OL they knew wouldn't win a SB without a great OL only Vikes fans thinks different.

Doesn't matter what people feel about Kirk they can feel he is 11-15 but he was voted to the Pro Bowl that is top 3 in the NFL top 6 in the NFL. Kirk's numbers are up there with Brees Rivers Stafford those types of Qbs. A year ago Kirk was rated #4 by PFF

Another MYTH is you need a QB on a rookie contract look at the SB wins most have been by QBs NOT on rookie contracts. The way to build up a rooster is by drafting Kirk's money did not keep us from team building 7 years of terrible drafts. KC's last 2 drafts either one is BETTER than all 7 years of ours. You can only do so much team building in 3 years that is all you get when you draft a QB you don't get the full 5 years. The reality is you need to draft well if you sign a FA or make a trade you better sign and trade for a good player.

Kirk taking 10 15 million less is 1 or 2 FAs that is not going to fix a team as bad as the Vikings are after 7 years of horrible drafts.

Also you have to understand if you have a QB on rookie deal while you can sign a couple more FAs the quality of play of that rookie MUST match the QUALITY of the Vet QB he replaces... otherwise you do improve the rest of the team BUT YOU WEAKEN YOURSELF AT THE MOST IMPORTANT POSITION it's a tradeoff the team won't be any better unless you hit on a QB equal to and again more than 50% of 1st round QBs BUST! Think about it logically... if you re-sign Kirk on a friendly deal that Kirk offered you GET 3 YEARS to draft, trade and sign in FA various QBs while the team still has a shot at winning and playoffs every year. If you narrow it down to 1 year that is Ponder like desperation you have to hit and if you don't you then scramble to re-sign Kirk and I bet you he won't offer the discount again and you will get outbid ...

Last Edit: Apr 14, 2023 19:00:05 GMT -6 by Danchat

diehardtwinsfan
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 6:07:58 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Apr 15, 2023 6:07:58 GMT -6

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Of course I don't want close games the reasons we had so many close games last year:
-#31 defense
-the 2 worst Pass Pro Guards in football and a weak C resulting in Kirk taking the most sacks of his career and the most hits of any Qb ever
-a weak run game
-mistakes by a first time playcaller
-no legit #2 WR /Deep threat to take pressure off JJ
-shakey ST if some of those FGs and PATs are hit the games are not that close

And I think the first question we need to ask is which of these can be (and are being) adjusted. You cannot fix all of it in one fell swoop, especially being up against the cap, but said bad center actually took a huge step forward... and I think they're also expecting one of those guards (being a rookie who did improve as the season went on) to continue improving... so I think they're expecting some improvement there. The run game (to your point), was weak. They signed Oliver as a blocking TE. Not an accident. It does appear that Cook is on the block as he wasn't a fit for the scheme. All the signs point to that. Was KOC part of that problem? I think so. You do too. We'll see if KAM/KOC have identified that or not. Time will tell there to be brutally honest, but it does appear that the team has recognized that and is adjusting. No deep threat is a concern. There's Nailor and nothing else. Of course they're also moving more towards the 2 TE model that Cousins has been more successful with, so perhaps that's more of a "build around your talent" approach.... which may mean less home runs, but more consistent scores. Personally, I'm fine with that. But don't toss out Nailor just yet either. Speaking of improving over time... that Joseph guy was money as the year went on...

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

I LOVE when people bring up Case Keenum Case Keenum could NOT win a starting job in the NFL he is a complete journeyman QB who had 1 good year. Kirk meanwhile has been a steady starting QB for years and has records that match all time players like Brees and Rivers.

yeah, I tend to agree more with you here... to a point. Keenum had the right set of skills to complement the weaknesses of that team but the book was out there too and Philly exposed us quite well. We weren't doing that again with him at the helm, just like the 1998 team wasn't going to repeat with Cunningham in 99. Where I disagree with you on Cousins is the value. He has never given enough of it. QBs are already overpaid relative to their performance (at least the ones that get those big contracts... I'll even add game changers like Mahomes to that list).

In the salary cap era, surplus value is what wins SBs. That's where I see this completely different. Everyone sees the rookie QB contract because it's the most obvious. QBs are expensive, so that high performing rookie QB is obvious b/c of all the other talent you can put around him making it much easier to win the big game... but there's more than one way to do that. One of the big reasons that Brady has all those rings is that he's consistently played for much less than his market value. That isn't an accident. Brady was willing to trade $$$ in his pocket for rings. He also knows full well being a QB that the market would provide him plenty more $$$ from those rings that his NFL contracts would not provide. Kirk never figured that out. People wouldn't be calling Brady the GOAT if he took the Cousin's approach to negotiating contracts. They just wouldn't.

Likewise, people discount just how good KC has been at finding cheap talent to compliment Mahomes. They've been otherworld the last few years finding late round picks performing immediately and above average for their positions... Again, not an accident, and if they can keep cracking that draft/development code, they will keep winning SBs, because it allows them to staff above average cheap talent around their expensive QB. KC lost their last SB because they couldn't put a good line in front of Mahomes. His talent couldn't save him when he was running for his life... so they used that savings to go out and buy a line, and they are now 2022 champions. But they need that surplus value somewhere, because they don't have it with their QB anymore, and there's always a weakness somewhere when you have 22 starters plus specialists, not to mention depth players.

So back to KAM/KOC.. they recognize the value part... That, I can see watching them for a year... The question to me is whether or not they can execute. I've seen moves I like, such as getting Hock and how KOC managed to improve the offense and turn Cousins into the comeback king while the rest of the NFL saw an overall drop in scoring... and things I didn't like the trade down to get Cine that left way too much value on the table and too much predictability/lack of situational awareness in play calling. Some of that can be attributed to inexperience, which people with a growth mindset can take an honest look at themselves and fix. I don't know KOC/KAM though... Humility, intelligence, and introspection are the key here. If they have a lot of those traits, they'll be fine.

mngopher35
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 10:23:40 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on Apr 15, 2023 10:23:40 GMT -6

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Of course I don't want close games the reasons we had so many close games last year:
-#31 defense
-the 2 worst Pass Pro Guards in football and a weak C resulting in Kirk taking the most sacks of his career and the most hits of any Qb ever
-a weak run game
-mistakes by a first time playcaller
-no legit #2 WR /Deep threat to take pressure off JJ
-shakey ST if some of those FGs and PATs are hit the games are not that close

I agree. Last year defense was easily our biggest issue. We have also had oline issues for years (although overall it's probably better than the recent average for us which is sad).

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Love people saying Keenum is better than Kirk

Can you quote anyone saying that Keenum is the better overall QB compared to Kirk? It's just a typical strawman that no one actually said. I really wish the Kirk homers would stop doing stuff like this and just respond to what has actually been said. If there were any logic behind the constant defense of Kirk or issues in logic with those pointing out why it's been time to move on from him this type of stuff would never be needed. It's telling it happens so often.

Keenum is brought up to add context when so many make excuses and blame others for the early failures when Kirk got here. We had a top 10 defense, elite weapons and an oline that was poor with Case Keenum and made the NFC championship game. If Kirk can't even match that it isn't just because the team sucked when they were very similar groups. He was an issue in the playoff game against the 49ers, our one time being close to that. He simply isn't an elite type of QB to elevate the offense, even if he is obviously better than Keenum overall.

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Kirk has never been overpaid and now he is underpaid and the reality is his money has never kept us form winning a SB. Rams did it with Kirk like Stafford. Mahomes did it with rebuilt OL. Our OLs have been among the worst in the NFL we could have had Mahomes here with these OL he doesn't win either Kirk took the most hits of any QB in the last 5 years. You know what KC did they completely rebuilt their OL they knew wouldn't win a SB without a great OL only Vikes fans thinks different.

Kirk has been overpaid much of his time here, at least according to the large majority of people who follow the sport. In fact many times if you follow media they have made jokes about the contracts we have given him etc. over time. Stafford is better than Kirk Cousins, that's part of why the rams were successful when they made that type of move and we regressed from the year prior with Cousins instead. Again if you want to talk about poor oline play then it is fair to bring up what Keenum did with similarly poor olines. It was definitely the weak spot on the team but the defense was top 10 and we had elite weapons, having an elite oline would be essentially the perfect team around a QB. If that is the level of help Cousins needs he isn't even remotely close to being worth what we have paid. Keenum had this offense 8th in ppd despite that oline, Cousins has only been able to match that level once (and Keenum didn't even have a healthy cook).

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Doesn't matter what people feel about Kirk they can feel he is 11-15 but he was voted to the Pro Bowl that is top 3 in the NFL top 6 in the NFL. Kirk's numbers are up there with Brees Rivers Stafford those types of Qbs. A year ago Kirk was rated #4 by PFF

Teddy Bridgewater was in the pro bowl, that isn't a very good way to judge QB's at all lol. It doesn't make them top 6 or anything like that. I do agree Cousins puts up good basic statistics and probably has good PFF grades but I view being able to lead an offense with smart situational football as more important and those are areas he generally has struggled (last year was an outlier in that sense but we saw it at the end of the giants game unfortunately). That is the reason most view him as more of an above average than elite type of QB.

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Another MYTH is you need a QB on a rookie contract look at the SB wins most have been by QBs NOT on rookie contracts. The way to build up a rooster is by drafting Kirk's money did not keep us from team building 7 years of terrible drafts. KC's last 2 drafts either one is BETTER than all 7 years of ours. You can only do so much team building in 3 years that is all you get when you draft a QB you don't get the full 5 years. The reality is you need to draft well if you sign a FA or make a trade you better sign and trade for a good player.

It's not that you need the rookie QB to win a SB it is that logically it is the easiest way to build up the roster because you have a lot more flexibility financially. It also gives you an outside shot at having the other easiest way to win a SB, getting an elite QB. We have constantly had cap issues limiting our ability to add talent since Cousins got here. We have also drafted poorly sure, both play a part in why we have 0 playoff wins in 3 years. KC is able to get away with more rookies in part because the have an actual elite QB as well, I don't think us drafting the guys they did last season leads us to a SB for example.

If you look at the SB winners over the last 15-20 years you have the well known elite guys (Rodgers, Mahommes, Peyton Manning) and then often times a QB on rookie contract or not making much money. Wilson, Eli Manning, Wentz/Foles, even Drew Brees hadn't been cashing in huge at the time. None of them were making near the same % of cap as Cousins has been for us. So much cheaper QB's than Kirk or elite level QB's have won a large majority of the SB's in recent history.

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Also you have to understand if you have a QB on rookie deal while you can sign a couple more FAs the quality of play of that rookie MUST match the QUALITY of the Vet QB he replaces... otherwise you do improve the rest of the team BUT YOU WEAKEN YOURSELF AT THE MOST IMPORTANT POSITION it's a tradeoff the team won't be any better unless you hit on a QB equal to and again more than 50% of 1st round QBs BUST! Think about it logically... if you re-sign Kirk on a friendly deal that Kirk offered you GET 3 YEARS to draft, trade and sign in FA various QBs while the team still has a shot at winning and playoffs every year. If you narrow it down to 1 year that is Ponder like desperation you have to hit and if you don't you then scramble to re-sign Kirk and I bet you he won't offer the discount again and you will get outbid ...

The issue is that Kirk doesn't elevate a team very much but gets a much much higher salary than some we had before him. We didn't really have any more success with Cousins than we did the years prior to him Case/Teddy. So it didn't really matter much that the quality of QB dropped off a bit for the team and when the roster fell off we got clearly worse overall despite the better QB. The only time paying up for that difference in QB play really makes sense is if you have a roster ready to compete for the SB.

Resigning Cousins doesn't make sense for us anymore. We no longer have a top tier roster and even when we did we saw how it played out. We need to move forward and build up this roster which means getting rid of expensive aging vets (which has already started). We should be clearing cap and adding more draft picks at this point not signing aging vets for longer term like what you suggest. We would honestly be better off trading him for value but I am not sure anyone else in the league is eager to move much.

Danchat
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 11:21:36 GMT -6 Funkytown, suncoastvike, and 1 more like this

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Post by Danchat on Apr 15, 2023 11:21:36 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2023 10:23:40 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

Can you quote anyone saying that Keenum is the better overall QB compared to Kirk?

I keep hearing this from a few posters... yet when CaMartin made the "Vikings great signs with Houston" thread referring to Keenum, not a single person posted about how Keenum was better than Cousins and nobody even talked about how it was a good move for the Texans. I guess some folks just don't understand that above average play from a $2M QB compared to $28M -> $35M one is a huge surplus in value, even if the $2M QB is clearly worse than the latter.

PurpleFloyd
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 13:33:51 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Apr 15, 2023 13:33:51 GMT -6

Apr 14, 2023 16:35:01 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Of course I don't want close games the reasons we had so many close games last year:
-#31 defense
-the 2 worst Pass Pro Guards in football and a weak C resulting in Kirk taking the most sacks of his career and the most hits of any Qb ever
-a weak run game
-mistakes by a first time playcaller
-no legit #2 WR /Deep threat to take pressure off JJ
-shakey ST if some of those FGs and PATs are hit the games are not that close

I LOVE when people bring up Case Keenum Case Keenum could NOT win a starting job in the NFL he is a complete journeyman QB who had 1 good year. Kirk meanwhile has been a steady starting QB for years and has records that match all time players like Brees and Rivers.

BUT Duke Shelley does fit Flores scheme he is a MAN COVER CB and was one of the top 2 in the NFL last year... he saves your season he beat out Booth before Booth got hurt and you demand he takes minimum that is dumb as fck.Throw him a couple 100k if anyone earned it in the history of the NFL it was Duke Shelley and oh yeah his TEAMMATES loved him.. terrible precident to set if you ball out and become great we will still treat you bad.

Love people saying Keenum is better than Kirk why can't Keenum win a starting job is Keenum #8 rated QB of all time, do Keenum's records match Brees Rivers etc like Kirk's do does Keenum have 32 4th Quarter Clutch comebacks. Typical Kirk hater prefer Keenum meanwhile Keenum doesn't come close to sniffing Kirk's stature. Even noted Kirk hater Mackey said Kirk is 1 SB win away from the HoF would Keenum be lol.

Kirk has never been overpaid and now he is underpaid and the reality is his money has never kept us form winning a SB. Rams did it with Kirk like Stafford. Mahomes did it with rebuilt OL. Our OLs have been among the worst in the NFL we could have had Mahomes here with these OL he doesn't win either Kirk took the most hits of any QB in the last 5 years. You know what KC did they completely rebuilt their OL they knew wouldn't win a SB without a great OL only Vikes fans thinks different.

Doesn't matter what people feel about Kirk they can feel he is 11-15 but he was voted to the Pro Bowl that is top 3 in the NFL top 6 in the NFL. Kirk's numbers are up there with Brees Rivers Stafford those types of Qbs. A year ago Kirk was rated #4 by PFF

Another MYTH is you need a QB on a rookie contract look at the SB wins most have been by QBs NOT on rookie contracts. The way to build up a rooster is by drafting Kirk's money did not keep us from team building 7 years of terrible drafts. KC's last 2 drafts either one is BETTER than all 7 years of ours. You can only do so much team building in 3 years that is all you get when you draft a QB you don't get the full 5 years. The reality is you need to draft well if you sign a FA or make a trade you better sign and trade for a good player.

Kirk taking 10 15 million less is 1 or 2 FAs that is not going to fix a team as bad as the Vikings are after 7 years of horrible drafts.

Also you have to understand if you have a QB on rookie deal while you can sign a couple more FAs the quality of play of that rookie MUST match the QUALITY of the Vet QB he replaces... otherwise you do improve the rest of the team BUT YOU WEAKEN YOURSELF AT THE MOST IMPORTANT POSITION it's a tradeoff the team won't be any better unless you hit on a QB equal to and again more than 50% of 1st round QBs BUST! Think about it logically... if you re-sign Kirk on a friendly deal that Kirk offered you GET 3 YEARS to draft, trade and sign in FA various QBs while the team still has a shot at winning and playoffs every year. If you narrow it down to 1 year that is Ponder like desperation you have to hit and if you don't you then scramble to re-sign Kirk and I bet you he won't offer the discount again and you will get outbid ...

Mostly fans are lemming’s and go with the parroted narrative. They supported TJ and said he was a winner because the team improved 3years in a row with him playing QB when in reality the record had very little to do with him.

We drafted Teddy and gave him a RB who did all the work on offense and a young, dominating defense and he got the credit. (All he does is win) either of those two on the Vikings last year win maybe 4-5 games. But the narrative is that it’s Kirks fault.

Ted Glover Content Creator Drew Pearson pushed off. Posts: 290 Likes: 450	Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 13:43:33 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Ted Glover on Apr 15, 2023 13:43:33 GMT -6 Incredible. Dude has been the GM barely a year and people have serious doubts about him lolol

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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 14:08:46 GMT -6 snotbubbles likes this

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Post by stout93 on Apr 15, 2023 14:08:46 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2023 13:43:33 GMT -6 Ted Glover said:

Incredible. Dude has been the GM barely a year and people have serious doubts about him lolol

Do you believe an NFL GM is a 'learn on the job' position?

diehardtwinsfan
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 14:16:47 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Apr 15, 2023 14:16:47 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2023 14:08:46 GMT -6 stout93 said:

Do you believe an NFL GM is a 'learn on the job' position?

As long as it's being staffed by a human being, yes. But short of God Himself staffing said role, the person in it had better be learning, because they will make mistakes.

suncoastvike
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 15, 2023 14:22:47 GMT -6 vikadam likes this

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Post by suncoastvike on Apr 15, 2023 14:22:47 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2023 14:08:46 GMT -6 stout93 said:

Apr 15, 2023 13:43:33 GMT -6 Ted Glover said:

Incredible. Dude has been the GM barely a year and people have serious doubts about him lolol

Do you believe an NFL GM is a 'learn on the job' position?

Somewhat. You get experience on the job and you either excel or fail. Do you only hire people with GM experience? How do they become available? When one is fired for not excelling is my guess. How do you replace retiring GM 's if only experienced ones are qualified? I'm willing to wait and see how this grows.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 17, 2023 13:19:18 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on Apr 17, 2023 13:19:18 GMT -6

I'll start by saying I love Hockenson. Love my Iowa TEs, love his attitude and work ethic, and love the weapon that he is. I like the trade. However, I saw this earlier and it got me thinking.

And there are more good players to be had at TE, as well. Anyway, reading the room on what last year's team was going to be, having no long-term answer at quarterback, having several other important guys due to be paid soon as well, etc. - should KAM have had a bit more foresight with this TE class, saving our second-round pick and the money about to be due to Hock? Or was his talent too much to pass up?

Thoughts?

Last Edit: Apr 17, 2023 13:20:53 GMT -6 by Funkytown

snotbubbles All Pro Elite Posts: 2,912 Likes: 1,214	Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 17, 2023 13:24:36 GMT -6 Funkytown, diehardtwinsfan, and 1 more like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by snotbubbles on Apr 17, 2023 13:24:36 GMT -6 IDK, it takes a few years for a TE to develop, and Hock is a finished product if you will. I like the trade myself, a good #2 receiver imo.

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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 17, 2023 13:39:35 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 17, 2023 13:39:35 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2023 13:43:33 GMT -6 Ted Glover said:

Incredible. Dude has been the GM barely a year and people have serious doubts about him lolol

A year is more than enough to have doubts about a GM. Are you kidding me right now?

Worst draft in the NFL in 2022 (so far).
Invested nearly all of free agency to improve the defense and the interior of the Oline. The D got worse and the FA Olinemen he brought in either didn't make the team or were a healthy scratch most games.
Drafted an indicted child rapist and said it was okay because he thinks Ingram is a good guy now.
Held onto aging players like Thielen and Kendricks for a season too long.
Traded a 5th round pick and spent millions for a WR who made the team worse.

He also hired what looks like a pretty good coach - oh wait, not sure if it is too early to say that since it has only been a year, right? Hockenson was a good trade too, assuming Hock signs an extension.

Definitely more bad than good and more than enough to produce doubts.

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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 17, 2023 16:48:24 GMT -6

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Post by kirko8 on Apr 17, 2023 16:48:24 GMT -6

here is a decent draft breakdown from last year we rank last www.nfl.com/news/2022-nfl-rookie-grades-ranking-the-classes-1-to-32

this is a pretty deep TE class we gave a 2 plus for Hockenson and now have to resign him to a big money deal he was a the end of his cheap years ... we could just have drafted a TE this year 2nd round ...

we are just giving away players like Irv and Cam and Duke and we don't have many draft picks this team is paper thin if Booth Jr Cine and Ingram are busts (just because you play someone in 17 games does not mean they are NOT a bust) along with Evans and Asamoah this team is in deep trouble... Lions have been drafting well recently Bears have drafted well recently ... this could quickly become a downward spiral ... QB is the last thing we should be focussing on

Last Edit: Apr 17, 2023 16:55:13 GMT -6 by kirko8

Danchat
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Having serious doubts about KAM already? Apr 17, 2023 19:55:05 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Danchat on Apr 17, 2023 19:55:05 GMT -6

Apr 17, 2023 13:24:36 GMT -6 snotbubbles said:

IDK, it takes a few years for a TE to develop, and Hock is a finished product if you will. I like the trade myself, a good #2 receiver imo.

Well said, while it is a very good TE crop, that doesn't guarantee a success if we take a guy in the 2nd round. I think it's unreasonable to say that he should have looked ahead from the trade deadline all the way to the draft, when we didn't know all of these guys were committing.

Apr 17, 2023 16:48:24 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

we are just giving away players like Irv

A 2nd round TE who was worth almost nothing on the open market... and it's not like he was a reach. It's no guarantee these 2nd rounders pan out, especially considering the Hockenson decision was made back in November.