Countdown to Spielman being fired

pinfante79
Jersey Retired

Posts: 4,277

Likes: 1,736
Fan Since: Mid 80's

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 10:51:25 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

Quote

Post by pinfante79 on Dec 6, 2021 10:51:25 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 10:44:02 GMT -6 mikenessfan said:

Dec 6, 2021 10:31:49 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

That is true... Both statements can be true You should read the words that I actually write... One says over his tenure, One talks about current role players. You see if you read the words that I write you'll understand how the English language actually works and then can interpret what I'm saying...

It's a fairly simple concept but I guess it's not for everyone...

Right, but if there is an issue with depth this year whose fault is that. Just because cousins wanted a big contract that would effect the cap greatly, we didn’t have to offer it to him. And guess what? Kirk could then have said yes I will take far less than what he is getting now and stayed or said he can explore his options outside of the team. But we bent over and said hey if you want to be paid like an elite qb then by all means for you to stay let’s get it done your way. That’s on the gm. His failure to build an oline for years and years is the other rbigfest indictment on him outside of his inability to find a franchise qb so he has to over pay through the teeth for an above average one.

We've lost every game by one possession. I put 0.0% of that on our lack of depth... That team that was on the field yesterday was way more than enough to beat the Lions. This is completely on the coaching staff. I'm absolutely fine with the level of talent we put on the field yesterday considering all the injuries we had.

And we have to stop lying to ourselves about Kirk's contract. If Kirk's contract was what was holding back this organization we wouldn't have found all the money that we did earlier this year.

This is no different than the narrative that was debunked which was with Kirk's original contract We would never be able to afford to keep Kendricks and Diggs and Hunter and Barr and Thielen and Dalvin, etc...

Why isn't anyone pointing out the fact that that was also a fake and debunk narrative? Who are the people that stated that because that was a very common take?

Can those people please come forward and raise their hand and say I was wrong?

This is the next fake narrative. And quite frankly I'm tired of it. I'm not drafting a QB in round one. I've been through it too many times. I sat through 15 years of having no franchise quarterback. The math has been done. Since 2010 drafting a QB in round 1 yields you a 3% chance of winning a Super Bowl.

This team needs to be one possession better. And there are so many easier paths to do that then finding a rookie QB. I would literally rather trade Dalvin Cook, Danielle Hunter, Kirk Cousins And as many draft picks as it takes to go get Russell Wilson if he truly wants out after this year.

Drafting a QB round one, And turning the franchise over to this unknown, when you have a bunch of good players, Don't get me wrong if you're the lions go draft a QB, It's just not something I want to do with the way this roster is constructed right now. It's never worked out for us in my lifetime I wouldn't expect the next time to be the charm. Let alone do what the 49ers did trade up mortgage the future and let's face it Trey Lance dude sitting behind Jimmy G... He sucks... They should have took Mac Jones. And a mistake like that is why the 49ers will not win a Super Bowl in the 2020s.

Please don't follow me on Twitter @pi_Unmasked

TAFKASP
Hall of Fame Inductee

Posts: 10,682

Likes: 9,116

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 11:11:05 GMT -6 pinfante79 likes this

Quote

Post by TAFKASP on Dec 6, 2021 11:11:05 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 10:51:25 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

This team needs to be one possession better. And there are so many easier paths to do that then finding a rookie QB.

This team could be one possession better if they simply had competent HC and coordinators.

That said, next years team is going to need to replace most of their defense so I think they're going to need to be much more than one possession better. In theory it shouldn't take much to have a better defense, but the cap is unlikely to allow them to tread water on D, much less improve.

This team is unlikely to be competitive for the next couple seasons, by which time a good QB drafted next year should be ready to lead them. The big question is whether they're capable of finding that QB?

Last Edit: Dec 6, 2021 11:15:59 GMT -6 by TAFKASP

sudo dnf install beer

pinfante79
Jersey Retired

Posts: 4,277

Likes: 1,736
Fan Since: Mid 80's

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 11:16:45 GMT -6 via Tapatalk diehardtwinsfan likes this

Quote

Post by pinfante79 on Dec 6, 2021 11:16:45 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 11:11:05 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

Dec 6, 2021 10:51:25 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

This team needs to be one possession better. And there are so many easier paths to do that then finding a rookie QB.

This team could be one possession better if they simply had competent a HC and coordinators.

That said, next years team is going to need to replace most of their defense so I think they're going to need to be much more than one possession better. In theory it shouldn't take much to have a better defense, but the cap is unlikely to allow the to tread water on D, much less improve.

This team is unlikely to be competitive for the next couple seasons, by which time a good QB drafted next year should be ready to lead them. The big question is whether they're capable of finding that QB?

It's not going to take a lot to improve this defense... The league wide cap limit should continue to rise. On paper the schedule appears to be way easier next year. Brady is another year older, Rogers is likely out of the division, And I think a new coaching staff could get so much more out of this offense.

I feel like every year we feel like we're up against the wall with the cap and we never are... So until that moment comes I'm not even going to concern myself with it. It's amazing we found the money that we did this past all season.

Bottom line is this team should be way better than their record indicates. With this level of talent the coaches just have to do better. The way Mike Zimmer coached that final drive vs the lions and basically prevent defense is embarrassing.

Please don't follow me on Twitter @pi_Unmasked

TAFKASP
Hall of Fame Inductee

Posts: 10,682

Likes: 9,116

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 11:27:27 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner likes this

Quote

Post by TAFKASP on Dec 6, 2021 11:27:27 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 11:16:45 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

It's not going to take a lot to improve this defense... The league wide cap limit should continue to rise. On paper the schedule appears to be way easier next year. Brady is another year older, Rogers is likely out of the division, And I think a new coaching staff could get so much more out of this offense.

Without Rodgers they could compete for the worst division in the NFL, then get embarrassed in the playoffs like they always do.

Dec 6, 2021 11:16:45 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

I feel like every year we feel like we're up against the wall with the cap and we never are... So until that moment comes I'm not even going to concern myself with it. It's amazing we found the money that we did this past all season.

They're constantly up against the cap because they keep pushing current money into future years. That's one of the big benefits to a complete rebuild, being able to clear the cap of dead/old money.

They can keep on trying to patch holes while the Titanic sinks, or they can scuttle the b*tch and build anew. Of course one issue with that is you'd like to move aging stars for young talent/draft picks, but their aging stars aren't worth much anymore. The team is filled with good young talent on offense, and old geezers on defense. You could trade guys like Cook and Cousins, but the return won't be that great. On defense you could move Smith and Kendricks and get mid round picks, possibly. They need to learn from Bellichick, move the aging stars while they still have value, don't keep building around them hoping from one last shot.

sudo dnf install beer

Longship
Pro Bowl

Posts: 2,363
Likes: 3,095

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 14:17:17 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner and comet52 like this

Quote

Post by Longship on Dec 6, 2021 14:17:17 GMT -6

Dec 5, 2021 22:06:18 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Dec 5, 2021 21:43:23 GMT -6 Longship said:

Your argument seems to boil down to this:

1. Spielman assessed that the 2020 team's chances of competing were irreparably hurt by two things: disproportionate talent loss due to injury, which was false; and excessive roster turnover, which he was responsible for.

2. Spielman's conclusion led to his incorrectly believing that Zimmer & his staff weren't primarily responsible for the failed 2020 season and were therefore the right choice to lead the team in 2021, resulting in a failed 2021 season as well.

3. Having made decisions that cost the organization the chance to compete in 2020 & 2021, Spielman is the right person to choose a new head coach who will lead the team until at least roughly 2030, provided he's able to maintain a win pct in the high .500's and manage one win in the divisional round.

And speaking of vacuums, that's the only place where the retention of Spielman appears to make sense. No other NFL franchise is currently employing a chief executive with a tenure anywhere near Spielman's and no Super Bowl appearance to show for it.

To your points 1 & 2, it wasn't that turnover was excessive, it's that they had no chance to integrate anything. Spielman's 2020 offseason plan would have been built before the end of the 2019 league year. They made player free agent signings and draft plans before the idea of a pandemic shutdown ever even occurred. In that situation you could say: "Sure, we have 2 new CBs, but they'll have OATs and pre-season games to work themselves into the defense." That plan made sense because the team had an elite defensive line to pressure the QB to make the new CB's job's easier and a savvy veteran LB corps to keep their job's simple.

Then no Pierce, no Hunter - there goes the 2 best pieces on that DL to keep the CBs free. And that steady LB presence in Barr (gone), Wilson did what he could but was clearly a backup. Kendricks missing the last 6 games didn't help either. Suddenly they were relying on rookies who where suppose to be the benefactors of a strong team around them to play like seasoned vets.

The offense started slow the first several games but was generally much better the last 10, that would also suggest that it was the lack of offseason preparation.

To your point 3, yes, I would be very happy with Spielman picking the next head coach.

It's tempting to address the subjective and fairly dubious assertion advocated by you and others that the 2020 Vikings' failed season was to a great extent the product of just bad luck, in the form of disproportionate hindrance from Covid and of excessive injury impact. It relies on some significantly revisionist history, and appears to be the product of confirmation bias.

But a post mortem of the 2020 season seems less relevant at this potential turning point than the future that the Wilfs choose for their organization.

There have been plenty of posts here at PP and elsewhere debating fan preference for pursuing a championship under new leadership at the perceived cost of a year or two of mostly losing football. But setting aside what fans want and focusing on your being pleased with Spielman staying on and choose the new head coach... with all due respect, you know that's not how the NFL works, right?

21st century NFL executives don't get to run a franchise for 15 or even 10 years without having at least one conference championship to their name. It just doesn't happen. Ever. Anywhere.

Except here in Minnesota.

And even if other organizations were doing that, it would seem extremely unlikely to lead to success. Every NFL chief exec hired in this century who has put their franchise in a Super Bowl has done so in less time than Spielman has had the GM nameplate on his door, and the average tenure at the time of their first Super Bowl appearance is roughly a third of Spielman's 15 years running the Vikings' front office.

So my question to you, since by your signing off on retaining Spielman you're advocating for a course of action that no other NFL franchise is currently undertaking and that hasn't resulted in even one Super Bowl appearance for a team going back to at least the 2000 season, is... why?

RickHasBeenFired
Starter

Posts: 790
Likes: 582
Fan Since: 1980

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 17:23:12 GMT -6 Longship likes this

Quote

Post by RickHasBeenFired on Dec 6, 2021 17:23:12 GMT -6

For the people who pin this on Zimmer, I get it. He doesn't go for 4th down when he should or he does when he shouldn't or you don't like a defense he called, or it's his fault a player didn't defend better, but he still has the team playing hard.

Many people seem to think that all of these decisions would lead to boat loads of changes and I don't see it. I see questionable decisions but in most games, he has guys playing well enough to get a lead.

I just don't know how far you expect a HC to take a team that really seems to only have one player who is really good who can stay healthy. The whole defense is old, injury prone, or both, and some (Dantzler) just might not be as good as many hoped a 2nd round pick might be.

Formerly known as firerick

FSUVike
Franchise Player

Posts: 3,202
Likes: 4,942

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 18:31:49 GMT -6 via mobile Longship likes this

Quote

Post by FSUVike on Dec 6, 2021 18:31:49 GMT -6

Dec 5, 2021 20:56:26 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 5, 2021 20:50:14 GMT -6 Danchat said:

That's your response to FSUVike's well thought out response? Declaring it to be wrong without a shred of analysis is quite petty.

I agree with most the teams he posted, I'd put the Vikings around #12-14, probably ahead of Cincy and the Chargers. I don't think there's a conversation to have about the Vikings being better than the top 9 on his list.

Petty? We are just too far apart on opinion why would I waste my time. I'm not billing him???

Plus we are all absolutely pissed off. There's something wrong with you if you're a die-hard Viking fan and you're not right now. So he's not thinking rationally, thus I'm not going to entertain him. Not a matter of being petty... I simply don't care... I said 2/3 of the league would trade rosters. Certainly sounds like you agree based on what you just said... awesome....

Petty... Lol... Cause I'm gonna sit down on a Sunday night and make a spreadsheet and make sure I have exact statistics for this message board post to this very angry Vikings fan that you're not going to convince that the entire world isnt falling apart to right now.... Let alone while I was driving....

Gotta be kidding me...

Like someone else said there was more than enough talent on that field today to beat the Lions. That's Rick's job. Now we have coaches that are supposed to make it work. The talent was clearly there. In my opinion Rick gets to 0.0% blame for this loss.

Oldest trick in the book here. 'He's so wrong I'm not even going to stoop to debating him'.

You were emotional and said something ridiculous. Which is that 20 Teams would rather have Minnesota's Roster than their own. You also mentioned me not being rational because of the loss. Which is another ridiculous thing to say. You don't know me.

But it's clear you think dropping outrageous hot takes then saying 'it's my ball and I'm going home' when someone quite rationally pushes back is your schtick.

At least we now know you're here solely for validation instead of actual conversation. Good luck with that.

Danchat
Content Creator

Posts: 19,034

Likes: 16,624

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 6, 2021 21:30:41 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner and Longship like this

Quote

Post by Danchat on Dec 6, 2021 21:30:41 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 10:51:25 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Drafting a QB round one, And turning the franchise over to this unknown, when you have a bunch of good players,

OK, then the Patriots drafting Mac Jones was a terrible move, correct? They had a decent roster, so why would they dare give an unknown like Mac the starting job with only Newton as his competition?

Dec 6, 2021 10:51:25 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Let alone do what the 49ers did trade up mortgage the future and let's face it Trey Lance dude sitting behind Jimmy G... He sucks... They should have took Mac Jones. And a mistake like that is why the 49ers will not win a Super Bowl in the 2020s.

Trey Lance is already a bust?! He was billed as a project player and Shanahan has time and time again said that he needs to sit in 2021. He played 13 games at Div II North Dakota... on what grounds can you label him a bust? The same grounds that delusional Chiefs fans declared Mahomes to be a bust after sitting on the bench because they already had a 'good enough' QB in Alex Smith?

andhesloose28
Franchise Player

Posts: 3,034
Likes: 2,156

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 8:37:26 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner and diehardtwinsfan like this

Quote

Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 7, 2021 8:37:26 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 17:23:12 GMT -6 RickHasBeenFired said:

For the people who pin this on Zimmer, I get it. He doesn't go for 4th down when he should or he does when he shouldn't or you don't like a defense he called, or it's his fault a player didn't defend better, but he still has the team playing hard.

Many people seem to think that all of these decisions would lead to boat loads of changes and I don't see it. I see questionable decisions but in most games, he has guys playing well enough to get a lead.

I just don't know how far you expect a HC to take a team that really seems to only have one player who is really good who can stay healthy. The whole defense is old, injury prone, or both, and some (Dantzler) just might not be as good as many hoped a 2nd round pick might be.

I get it with the injuries, unlucky but regardless this team has put all of its assets on that side of the ball. If you dont think Zim has a say in whose drafted on the defensive side or free agents picked up then your even more biased than you project yourself. Only reason we got jefferson is because we traded away Diggs (5th round pick by your boy Rick) We likely just take Gladney that year if not. Last minute of halves or games all the points we've given up, thats on Zimmer. Last drive sunday 3 man rush on the field and last play of game, thats on Zimmer. The "CB guru" all the invested assets and none are still on the team. Not even really a debate guy is played out time is over with.

PurpleFloyd
Jersey Retired

Posts: 4,366
Likes: 2,094

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 10:16:01 GMT -6 via mobile pinfante79 likes this

Quote

Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 7, 2021 10:16:01 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2021 11:16:45 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 6, 2021 11:11:05 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

This team could be one possession better if they simply had competent a HC and coordinators.

That said, next years team is going to need to replace most of their defense so I think they're going to need to be much more than one possession better. In theory it shouldn't take much to have a better defense, but the cap is unlikely to allow the to tread water on D, much less improve.

This team is unlikely to be competitive for the next couple seasons, by which time a good QB drafted next year should be ready to lead them. The big question is whether they're capable of finding that QB?

It's not going to take a lot to improve this defense... The league wide cap limit should continue to rise. On paper the schedule appears to be way easier next year. Brady is another year older, Rogers is likely out of the division, And I think a new coaching staff could get so much more out of this offense.

I feel like every year we feel like we're up against the wall with the cap and we never are... So until that moment comes I'm not even going to concern myself with it. It's amazing we found the money that we did this past all season.

Bottom line is this team should be way better than their record indicates. With this level of talent the coaches just have to do better. The way Mike Zimmer coached that final drive vs the lions and basically prevent defense is embarrassing.

This^

PurpleFloyd
Jersey Retired

Posts: 4,366
Likes: 2,094

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 10:17:18 GMT -6 via mobile

Quote

Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 7, 2021 10:17:18 GMT -6

Dec 7, 2021 8:37:26 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 6, 2021 17:23:12 GMT -6 RickHasBeenFired said:

For the people who pin this on Zimmer, I get it. He doesn't go for 4th down when he should or he does when he shouldn't or you don't like a defense he called, or it's his fault a player didn't defend better, but he still has the team playing hard.

Many people seem to think that all of these decisions would lead to boat loads of changes and I don't see it. I see questionable decisions but in most games, he has guys playing well enough to get a lead.

I just don't know how far you expect a HC to take a team that really seems to only have one player who is really good who can stay healthy. The whole defense is old, injury prone, or both, and some (Dantzler) just might not be as good as many hoped a 2nd round pick might be.

I get it with the injuries, unlucky but regardless this team has put all of its assets on that side of the ball. If you dont think Zim has a say in whose drafted on the defensive side or free agents picked up then your even more biased than you project yourself. Only reason we got jefferson is because we traded away Diggs (5th round pick by your boy Rick) We likely just take Gladney that year if not. Last minute of halves or games all the points we've given up, thats on Zimmer. Last drive sunday 3 man rush on the field and last play of game, thats on Zimmer. The "CB guru" all the invested assets and none are still on the team. Not even really a debate guy is played out time is over with.

Agreed

diehardtwinsfan
Moderator

Posts: 11,979

Likes: 7,517

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 11:01:07 GMT -6 andhesloose28 likes this

Quote

Post by diehardtwinsfan on Dec 7, 2021 11:01:07 GMT -6

Dec 7, 2021 8:37:26 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 6, 2021 17:23:12 GMT -6 RickHasBeenFired said:

For the people who pin this on Zimmer, I get it. He doesn't go for 4th down when he should or he does when he shouldn't or you don't like a defense he called, or it's his fault a player didn't defend better, but he still has the team playing hard.

Many people seem to think that all of these decisions would lead to boat loads of changes and I don't see it. I see questionable decisions but in most games, he has guys playing well enough to get a lead.

I just don't know how far you expect a HC to take a team that really seems to only have one player who is really good who can stay healthy. The whole defense is old, injury prone, or both, and some (Dantzler) just might not be as good as many hoped a 2nd round pick might be.

I get it with the injuries, unlucky but regardless this team has put all of its assets on that side of the ball. If you dont think Zim has a say in whose drafted on the defensive side or free agents picked up then your even more biased than you project yourself. Only reason we got jefferson is because we traded away Diggs (5th round pick by your boy Rick) We likely just take Gladney that year if not. Last minute of halves or games all the points we've given up, thats on Zimmer. Last drive sunday 3 man rush on the field and last play of game, thats on Zimmer. The "CB guru" all the invested assets and none are still on the team. Not even really a debate guy is played out time is over with.

Totally agree, though I'm not even sure I get the injuries at this point. Every team gets them. Part of a coach's job is next man up. We did fine with that in 2017, but I've seen quite little from Zimmer's crew since in that area.

Key players on every team get hurt every year.

pinfante79
Jersey Retired

Posts: 4,277

Likes: 1,736
Fan Since: Mid 80's

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 11:37:38 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

Quote

Post by pinfante79 on Dec 7, 2021 11:37:38 GMT -6

Guys, we just blow. Nothing we do works. And just watch of we cut ties with Zimmer, Rick, and Kirk at the same time this franchise will suck the rest of the decade. Your not gonna go 3 for 3, your just not. And you know what maybe we'll go another 15 years between solid QBs again. Good job... We blow...

Please don't follow me on Twitter @pi_Unmasked

organizedchaos
Cheerleader

Posts: 4
Likes: 2

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 11:54:18 GMT -6 via mobile Longship likes this

Quote

Post by organizedchaos on Dec 7, 2021 11:54:18 GMT -6

Dec 7, 2021 11:37:38 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Guys, we just blow. Nothing we do works. And just watch of we cut ties with Zimmer, Rick, and Kirk at the same time this franchise will suck the rest of the decade. Your not gonna go 3 for 3, your just not. And you know what maybe we'll go another 15 years between solid QBs again. Good job... We blow...

I hear ya. Not sure if we'd suck for a decade but it's unlikely you go 3 for 3. Zimmer is likely gone.

Rick isn't a bad GM, in fact I'd say above average. I've just never heard of a personell guy being in a place for 15+ years with a team that hasn't had a championship appearance. Billy beane in baseball I guess

No idea with Kirk bc I think you need to extend him to keep him.

I really thought Zimmer was the right coach so this all sucks.

Last Edit: Dec 7, 2021 11:55:52 GMT -6 by organizedchaos

andhesloose28
Franchise Player

Posts: 3,034
Likes: 2,156

Countdown to Spielman being fired Dec 7, 2021 12:08:15 GMT -6 Longship likes this

Quote

Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 7, 2021 12:08:15 GMT -6

Dec 7, 2021 11:37:38 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Guys, we just blow. Nothing we do works. And just watch of we cut ties with Zimmer, Rick, and Kirk at the same time this franchise will suck the rest of the decade. Your not gonna go 3 for 3, your just not. And you know what maybe we'll go another 15 years between solid QBs again. Good job... We blow...

I mean odds are likely we wont go 3-3 since we've never won a super bowl..But whats the difference between now... Zim, Rick, and Kirk are 0-3..Why hang on?