Retool or Rebuild for 2022?

comet52
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 16, 2022 8:08:17 GMT -6 via mobile kmillard likes this

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Post by comet52 on Feb 16, 2022 8:08:17 GMT -6

Feb 15, 2022 21:48:26 GMT -6 Uncle said:

Feb 15, 2022 10:33:36 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

It’s not going to be easy

When Arif says it won't be easy, it definitely won't be easy. That article is a whirlwind in the sense of how many holes he states the Vikings need to fill this offseason if they want to continue to be in "win now" mode and extend Cousins again. He mentions the first step being to solve the "Cousins situation favorably", what what is the definition of "favorably"? Does that mean Cousins taking less per-season that what we could possibly get in the open market if he were a free agent, or does that mean Cousins accepting another extension that pays him money up front while the Vikings push cap dollars in future years?

It's really hard to see all the pieces falling correctly for the Vikings staying in "win now" mode with all of the items Arif laid out in that article.

The other thing that isn't mentioned when going over interior OL players in free agency is convincing them to sign in Minnesota. One team that will also be looking for interior OL help this offseason is Cincinnati after Joe Burrow took a beating this season (including the playoffs) and the Bengals have more cap space, and they are coming off a SB appearance with a young QB still on a cost-controlled rookie contract (which means more money for the rest of the team for a few years). The Vikings can sell great facilities, a new/collaborative coaching staff/front office and some good skill position players (Cook, Justin, Irv, Thielen, etc.), but they don't have the good/young cost-controlled QB and a recent history of deep postseason runs to promote to potential free agents.

It's frankly a ridiculous notion. The light bulb finally went on in the dank, musty corners of ownership's minds and they dumped Rick and Mike, about 2-5 years late depending upon who you ask.

Why then would the focus of the franchise become put some tape and splints and bandaids on the mess they left and run it out for another year of pretending we're contending?

If KAM and KOC are gonna bet their new careers on Kirk and that mess, those careers might be shorter than they imagine.

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

ukvikings
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 16, 2022 11:20:31 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by ukvikings on Feb 16, 2022 11:20:31 GMT -6

Feb 16, 2022 8:08:17 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Feb 15, 2022 21:48:26 GMT -6 Uncle said:

When Arif says it won't be easy, it definitely won't be easy. That article is a whirlwind in the sense of how many holes he states the Vikings need to fill this offseason if they want to continue to be in "win now" mode and extend Cousins again. He mentions the first step being to solve the "Cousins situation favorably", what what is the definition of "favorably"? Does that mean Cousins taking less per-season that what we could possibly get in the open market if he were a free agent, or does that mean Cousins accepting another extension that pays him money up front while the Vikings push cap dollars in future years?

It's really hard to see all the pieces falling correctly for the Vikings staying in "win now" mode with all of the items Arif laid out in that article.

The other thing that isn't mentioned when going over interior OL players in free agency is convincing them to sign in Minnesota. One team that will also be looking for interior OL help this offseason is Cincinnati after Joe Burrow took a beating this season (including the playoffs) and the Bengals have more cap space, and they are coming off a SB appearance with a young QB still on a cost-controlled rookie contract (which means more money for the rest of the team for a few years). The Vikings can sell great facilities, a new/collaborative coaching staff/front office and some good skill position players (Cook, Justin, Irv, Thielen, etc.), but they don't have the good/young cost-controlled QB and a recent history of deep postseason runs to promote to potential free agents.

It's frankly a ridiculous notion. The light bulb finally went on in the dank, musty corners of ownership's minds and they dumped Rick and Mike, about 2-5 years late depending upon who you ask.

Why then would the focus of the franchise become put some tape and splints and bandaids on the mess they left and run it out for another year of pretending we're contending?

If KAM and KOC are gonna bet their new careers on Kirk and that mess, those careers might be shorter than they imagine.

This Kwesi quote about the hiring today has me thinking positively that they see things like we do. “As I spent time with Kevin during the interview process, it became immediately clear he will be a great partner in building this football team for long-term success. He understands what is critical to leading a team that wins at the highest level”. Long term success and wins at the highest level are not phrases I think of with the current roster/QB. Time to reset and truly “build this team for long-term success”.

Last Edit: Feb 16, 2022 11:20:49 GMT -6 by ukvikings

andhesloose28
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 17, 2022 6:50:00 GMT -6 ukvikings likes this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Feb 17, 2022 6:50:00 GMT -6

Feb 16, 2022 11:20:31 GMT -6 ukvikings said:

Feb 16, 2022 8:08:17 GMT -6 comet52 said:

It's frankly a ridiculous notion. The light bulb finally went on in the dank, musty corners of ownership's minds and they dumped Rick and Mike, about 2-5 years late depending upon who you ask.

Why then would the focus of the franchise become put some tape and splints and bandaids on the mess they left and run it out for another year of pretending we're contending?

If KAM and KOC are gonna bet their new careers on Kirk and that mess, those careers might be shorter than they imagine.

This Kwesi quote about the hiring today has me thinking positively that they see things like we do. “As I spent time with Kevin during the interview process, it became immediately clear he will be a great partner in building this football team for long-term success. He understands what is critical to leading a team that wins at the highest level”. Long term success and wins at the highest level are not phrases I think of with the current roster/QB. Time to reset and truly “build this team for long-term success”.

I mean does that include a Kirk extension though??? Thats the really the big move and decision that makes everything else irrelevant. Im all for the reset button, I would trade Hunter and Kirk get whatever you can, heck even start Mond idc if we win one game. See what he has if not you are set up to get your guy in 2023 and your developing your new draft picks and young guys. This thing can still be turned around in a year

. I wont be surprised to see some vets go even Hunter possibly traded. But then we extend Kirk?? Thats the one move ill be waiting on and only one I care about right now. Do they want to build their own product or carry on what Rick did and try and do it better. I just dont see how you wouldnt want to build your own team and I think extending Kirk limits that.

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,661 Likes: 31,587 Fan Since: 1998	Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 17, 2022 17:14:18 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Feb 17, 2022 17:14:18 GMT -6
	Last Edit: Feb 17, 2022 17:15:27 GMT -6 by Funkytown

James
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 17, 2022 19:32:54 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown, JABF, and 3 more like this

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Post by James on Feb 17, 2022 19:32:54 GMT -6

A rebuild would be nice but this team isn’t entirely bad. We have pieces to build around. Not to mention a rebuild doesn’t guarantee future success. We have a decent roster already. This roster easily could’ve been a playoff team had some games gone the other way. All we needed was a coach to play to the players strength. Hopefully KOC can get it done.

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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 17, 2022 21:52:27 GMT -6 Funkytown, James, and 4 more like this

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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2022 21:52:27 GMT -6

Feb 17, 2022 19:32:54 GMT -6 James said:

A rebuild would be nice but this team isn’t entirely bad. We have pieces to build around. Not to mention a rebuild doesn’t guarantee future success. We have a decent roster already. This roster easily could’ve been a playoff team had some games gone the other way. All we needed was a coach to play to the players strength. Hopefully KOC can get it done.

I think this is a good point. I've been on the blow it up/rebuild train all off season, but maybe you're right.
Zimmers system was reportedly difficult to learn and execute, so maybe give the guys we have a chance in a simplified system and then build from there.

PurpleKoolaid Hall of Fame Candidate Posts: 6,227 Likes: 2,844	Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 17, 2022 23:02:17 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by PurpleKoolaid on Feb 17, 2022 23:02:17 GMT -6 LOL KOC praised everyone we are going to have to trade if we want a SB in 3 years. I pray Mensah is as smart as I think he is.

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,661 Likes: 31,587 Fan Since: 1998	Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 17, 2022 23:06:24 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Feb 17, 2022 23:06:24 GMT -6

oofda22
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 18, 2022 9:22:10 GMT -6 via mobile oofda22 likes this

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Post by oofda22 on Feb 18, 2022 9:22:10 GMT -6

Rebuilding the defense will be tough but the 5 guys under contract (Hunter, Harry, Pierce, Tomlinson and Kendricks) can do well or even excel in the Fangio "3-4" defense. It's the other 6 guys that we have to figure out. Sounds like they want Barr back. Sounds like PP wants to come back. 4 more?

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,661 Likes: 31,587 Fan Since: 1998	Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 18, 2022 13:34:36 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Feb 18, 2022 13:34:36 GMT -6
	Last Edit: Feb 18, 2022 13:35:39 GMT -6 by Funkytown

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,661 Likes: 31,587 Fan Since: 1998	Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 18, 2022 18:27:52 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Feb 18, 2022 18:27:52 GMT -6 Needs some fixin'!

marksp18
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 18, 2022 23:27:46 GMT -6

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Post by marksp18 on Feb 18, 2022 23:27:46 GMT -6

Feb 14, 2022 9:33:15 GMT -6 ukvikings said:

Feb 14, 2022 9:19:44 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

Just to inject some reality into any “Trade Thielen / Cook talk”, let’s take a look at the cost and returns for each.

Cook
Dead Cap money if traded: $9M
Cap saving if traded: $2.6M
Potential Comparisons for value:
- 2019: Jordan Howard for a Conditional 6th
- 2019: Duke Johnson for a 3rd (Caveat, this was to the Texans in their “stupid phase”)
- 2016: Demarco Murray for a 4th
- 2014: Bryce Brown for a 4th

Those are the biggest returns I could find for RBs in recent history, so Cook looks like he might get a 4th round pick.

Thielen
Dead Cap money if traded: $11M
Cap saving if traded: $5.8M
Potential Comparisons for value:
- 2021: Randal Cobb for a 5th
- 2020: (Brandin Cooks + 4th) for a 2nd
- 2019: Mohamed Sanu for a 2nd
- 2019: (Emanuel Sanders + 5th) for (3rd + 4th)
- 2019: Demaryius Thomas for a 6th
- 2018: Demaryius Thomas for a 4th

There’s a lot of variety in those players in terms of age, style and production. I’d say Thielen probably falls in the range of a 3rd or 4th.

So in total, that would be $20M in dead cap for (best case) a 3rd and 4th round pick for two contributing players; both of whom would have much cheaper costs to move on from them in 2023. You can count me in any group that thinks that won’t happen because it is costing a lot in current production for very little in future returns (you don’t build a team with a 3rd and 4th).

You’re absolutely right on both guys probably. Cook it makes no sense to trade this year due to those contract figures and cap savings or lack thereof. I think both guys might get more in return than you project though. I see Thielen in the late second early third round range for trade return. Julio Jones returned a second last off-season. Thielen is loved here and extremely valuable when healthy. Can’t see them trading him for a Kellen Mond esque spot in the upcoming draft.

You left out Julio Jones.

Jones was traded at age 32 for a 2nd and a 4th. The Falcons also sent a 6th to the Titans.

Thielen is 32 as well and pretty productive still.

I could see a late 3rd or early 4th from a team like the Jaguars who could use a veteran WR to help out Lawrence. The Raiders could also be a possibility. They need another receiver badly and even if they draft one high, they could still use a veteran.

comet52
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 19, 2022 8:03:28 GMT -6

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Post by comet52 on Feb 19, 2022 8:03:28 GMT -6

Feb 17, 2022 23:06:24 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Mark Wilf says this every year (except last year for some reason). He just had to move the annual August declaration of "this is our year!" to February since he just hired 2 new guys to run his perpetually Super Bowl-bound organization.

Personally Mark, just build an actual winner instead of one you want us to imagine is coming. If that means tear it down and have a bad 2022 for the sake of a better future, then do it instead of this constant sales job that goes nowhere.

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

MidwinterViking
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 19, 2022 10:45:13 GMT -6

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Post by MidwinterViking on Feb 19, 2022 10:45:13 GMT -6

Feb 18, 2022 23:27:46 GMT -6 marksp18 said:

Feb 14, 2022 9:33:15 GMT -6 ukvikings said:

You’re absolutely right on both guys probably. Cook it makes no sense to trade this year due to those contract figures and cap savings or lack thereof. I think both guys might get more in return than you project though. I see Thielen in the late second early third round range for trade return. Julio Jones returned a second last off-season. Thielen is loved here and extremely valuable when healthy. Can’t see them trading him for a Kellen Mond esque spot in the upcoming draft.

You left out Julio Jones.

Jones was traded at age 32 for a 2nd and a 4th. The Falcons also sent a 6th to the Titans.

Thielen is 32 as well and pretty productive still.

I could see a late 3rd or early 4th from a team like the Jaguars who could use a veteran WR to help out Lawrence. The Raiders could also be a possibility. They need another receiver badly and even if they draft one high, they could still use a veteran.

I left Julio off on purpose because he is not a comparable player to Thielen. Thielen's career best was 113/1,373; Julio Jones had 6 seasons under his belt that topped that. The season before he was traded, Julio was on pace for 90/1,370. Do the same extrapolation for Thielen and he wasn't on pace 1K yards.

Looking at the Julio Jones trade and thinking "We could get a 2nd for Thielen!" is feeding yourself bad information and setting yourself up to be let down.

Danchat
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Retool or Rebuild for 2022? Feb 19, 2022 19:00:51 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Feb 19, 2022 19:00:51 GMT -6

Feb 19, 2022 10:45:13 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

The season before he was traded, Julio was on pace for 90/1,370.

That's the keyword, "on pace". Injuries were a known problem for him, which probably drove his price down somewhat - and whadda know, he couldn't stay healthy for most the entire 2021 season.

I think your logic is correct, especially since Thielen has injury issues as well.