Offense Concerns (plus kicker)

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 14:46:32 GMT -6 Josey Wales and Jor-El like this

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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 14:46:32 GMT -6

I get it we had a good off-season and stacked the defense. I see all the Zim for Prez, Zim the man, but hold on wodie.

I see some of the same issues I been having with Zim. We stacked the D even doubled down on CB and DT, but what about the offense? We can be in for some regression if we not careful, the offense was pretty healthy last year. Law of averages says that may not be the case again.

We added pretty much just rookies excluding Cole, but relying on rookies and not a few vets in the mix could be risky. It is not like we didn't add 5 rookies on defense also.

I am not seeing the same urgency to address the offensive side. We need to add a vet at WR and one on the interior of the OL.
WR to add more wrinkles with some formations and to protect against heaven forbid a injury to the big 2. ISM may do it but why not double down like on defense? Beebe and Bisi don't inspire me if the rookie is not ready. We inches away from Dozier starting on the interior once again if Davis not ready or a injury occurs.

We are close, but if we going all in and clearly we are, why not pad up the offense side with depth just like defense and that right there is my problem with Zim. I trust him with the defense, but he doesn't seem as hell bent on stacking the offense in the same manner.

Then we have this issue with the kicker. Now I don't know much about Joseph, but the kicking game has me nervous. His resume is not sparkling and I heard Patterson been missing kicks and missed mandatory minicamp. We know the history with our kicking when we rolling. We need to bring in a better competition for Joseph and make sure we straight on paper there.

Overall nice job but I want to finish things off a bit more on offense with depth. Cause regardless NO EXCUSES IN 2021! So address offense with a vet or 2 at WR and OL interior and swap Patterson out for a better kicker and let's go we still have some money to spend. Leave no stone unturned.

Last Edit: Jun 24, 2021 14:48:44 GMT -6 by Deleted

Uncle
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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 14:58:54 GMT -6 vikingpwr and Jor-El like this

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Post by Uncle on Jun 24, 2021 14:58:54 GMT -6

At least w/ the K, there's a little competition still with both Joseph and Patterson...we can't say the same w/ the P situation as Colquitt has seemingly been handed the job after June OTA's/minicamp if they don't bring another one in, and Colquitt was one of the worst P's in the NFL in 2020.

This has been mentioned numerous times this offseason by Jor-El and a few others: the biggest question-mark on defense is how the new vet players (Tomlinson, Pierce, Peterson, Woods, Breeland, Richardson, etc) will gel with Zimmer's "core" players like Hunter, Barr, Kendricks, Harrison, etc. On the offensive side of the ball, you have less turnover on the roster and more continuity w/ the exception of Reiff - and even if Hill starts at LT over Darrisaw, at least Hill has continuity with the offense and he's been "serviceable".

There are some question-marks on offense, no doubt: TE play without Rudy as TE1, WR depth behind Thielen/Jefferson, etc...but generally speaking, I'm a bit less worried about the offense being able to function than I am about ST and the defense....

....and the biggest concern of all (and has been since the 2017 NFC Championship) is not the offense, defense or ST...it's whether Zimmer can improve his Gameday Head Coaching, because without improvement there, we're just another mediocre club with some talented players.

Last Edit: Jun 24, 2021 15:06:31 GMT -6 by Uncle

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 15:13:25 GMT -6 Danchat and Jor-El like this

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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 15:13:25 GMT -6

Jun 24, 2021 14:58:54 GMT -6 Uncle said:

There are some question-marks: TE play without Rudy as TE1, WR depth behind Thielen/Jefferson, etc...but generally speaking, I'm a bit less worried about the offense being able to function than I am about ST and the defense....

....and the biggest concern of all (and has been since the 2017 NFC Championship) is not the offense, defense or ST...it's whether Zimmer can improve his Gameday Head Coaching, because without improvement there, we're just another mediocre club with some talented players.

IMO we will be fine at TE. Rudy hasn't done much in several years and IRV and Conklin picked it up the second half of last year. Patterson is just a body right now if he sucks he not much competition I heard he is struggling.

We brought in vet's on defense JMO we should be fine with the gelling part. Offense had no injuries really outside the norm last season, we lack depth compared to defense. My concern is not OT Hill can play in a pinch it is the interior that concerns me still. WR obviously too people always say well we don't need a #3 WR and I disagree. That is the problem we to vanilla on offense open things up more.

Last Edit: Jun 24, 2021 15:21:25 GMT -6 by Deleted

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 15:33:14 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jun 24, 2021 15:33:14 GMT -6

Drank , great point about the offense. It really feels like Zimmer and Spielman looked at the 2020 offensive stats (not W-L column) and said, "We have offensive production to spare - we can shave a little off to boost the defense." But I am concerned for the offense for 2 general reasons:

1. 2020 offensive output was unusually high - and when something hits a peak, it tends to come back down. Statisticians call it reversion to the mean. We might never again see such high numbers...and to a large extent, all that offensive production happened because we were deep in a hole playing catchup. Opponents were in prevent half the game.

2. The offense is a house of cards that could fall with as little as 1 key injury. OK, if I mention Cousins, people will either say "We don't need him!" or "Every team fails if they lose their starting QB". The second one is definitely true, we aren't likely to have a backup as good as the starter at QB, for most teams it isn't even close. But we still lose a season if Cousins has a season-ending injury. And then, what if Cook misses a lot of time? I think all the offensive plans are gone..and we have not really built a stable of RBs behind him. I think Mattison's limitations were evident last year, and Nnangwu's were in college. Also, I have serious doubts we could be productive if we lost either Thielen or Jefferson for half the season or more. JJ starting opposite Bisi? Opponents will have a safety shadow Bisi and triple-cover Jefferson. It's so true that we have ignored WR3, because that's what you get if you only throw 5th-rounders and UDFAs at the spot.

So we're counting on all 4 of those players staying healthy most of the season, or we are back to "good defense bad offense" which we have suffered for much of Zimmer's tenure. And that's assuming this defensive unit collected from different parts of the league suddenly plays like the 2017 team did.

Last Edit: Jun 24, 2021 15:33:49 GMT -6 by Jor-El

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 15:59:28 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 15:59:28 GMT -6

Jun 24, 2021 15:33:14 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Drank , great point about the offense. It really feels like Zimmer and Spielman looked at the 2020 offensive stats (not W-L column) and said, "We have offensive production to spare - we can shave a little off to boost the defense." But I am concerned for the offense for 2 general reasons:

1. 2020 offensive output was unusually high - and when something hits a peak, it tends to come back down. Statisticians call it reversion to the mean. We might never again see such high numbers...and to a large extent, all that offensive production happened because we were deep in a hole playing catchup. Opponents were in prevent half the game.

2. The offense is a house of cards that could fall with as little as 1 key injury. OK, if I mention Cousins, people will either say "We don't need him!" or "Every team fails if they lose their starting QB". The second one is definitely true, we aren't likely to have a backup as good as the starter at QB, for most teams it isn't even close. But we still lose a season if Cousins has a season-ending injury. And then, what if Cook misses a lot of time? I think all the offensive plans are gone..and we have not really built a stable of RBs behind him. I think Mattison's limitations were evident last year, and Nnangwu's were in college. Also, I have serious doubts we could be productive if we lost either Thielen or Jefferson for half the season or more. JJ starting opposite Bisi? Opponents will have a safety shadow Bisi and triple-cover Jefferson. It's so true that we have ignored WR3, because that's what you get if you only throw 5th-rounders and UDFAs at the spot.

So we're counting on all 4 of those players staying healthy most of the season, or we are back to "good defense bad offense" which we have suffered for much of Zimmer's tenure. And that's assuming this defensive unit collected from different parts of the league suddenly plays like the 2017 team did.

Great post Jor. I just hate how they based last year as a guarantee for this year. Rick and Zim should know better every year is different. We have 3 options at WR Westbrook, Fitz, or Golden Tate that is it. At interior OL Turner, Easton, and Carpenter. We need to address that IMO.

If we going all in they need to go all the way in and completely round out the roster the best we can. Defense with savvy vets will round into form after about 3 games. These not rookies guys like PP and all the rest know what it takes. Then Sheldon, Mack, and Weatherly been here before. My concern is offense we stacked on paper on defense. Yes we could use another DE, but why make the defense picture perfect yet leave holes on the offense. We can get a way with what we have at RE IMO. Now if we can address OL, WR and DE cool but that is asking a lot. As is another S for depth.

Punter I get it concerns with Colquitt but kicker is more critical. Plus being ready for injuries so one injury doesn't derail the season except QB which would hurt most teams. We need to put the finishing touches on offense and make sure this Joseph guy can get it done. DE and S only if those are addressed first IMO.

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 19:09:40 GMT -6 Jor-El, FSUVike, and 1 more like this

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Post by Will on Jun 24, 2021 19:09:40 GMT -6

The Vikings have not had a clutch 3rd receiver since Jarius Wright. He was money on 3rd down in 2017. I thought the guy from TN last year would contribute and he did almost nothing. Beebe and Bisi were better. Maybe they step up or KJ Osborn does. I'm not against a good 3rd WR if they are obviously better than the existing guys. Depth is important because receivers do get injured.

I suspect Keenan McCardell is making all of the receivers better. The other thing is both Irv Smith and Conklin are primed to step up.

I think the big issue is the same issue as the last 3 years: interior pass protection. If the Vikings are solid inside this year, the offense has the chance to be very good. With Cleveland, Davis, Cole, and past draft picks, are there two good starters and backups besides Dozier? If not, can they sign someone better than Dozier? Are any of the Tackle draft picks from the last few years ready to step in if starters get injured? Hill, Udoh...

Maybe the biggest wild card for the offense is Kubiak. What if he is gifted like Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVey? Maybe he takes the Vikings' offense to the next level. Or maybe he is predictable and stymied by Zimmer.

Finally, offenses scored and gained more in 2020 because there was no home field advantage for defenses. It will be harder to move the ball on the road in 2021.

Danchat Content Creator Posts: 19,038 Likes: 16,633	Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 20:53:03 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Danchat on Jun 24, 2021 20:53:03 GMT -6 I think we should be very concerned about kicker, Greg Joseph doesn't have much of a track record and Riley Patterson doesn't seem to be on par with him.

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 24, 2021 21:37:02 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Jun 24, 2021 21:37:02 GMT -6

Jun 24, 2021 19:09:40 GMT -6 Will said:

Keenan McCardell

There's a reason we signed him and I hope Klint was in on it. We definitely could use better play from other WRs not named Thielen and Jefferson and I'd like to see Klint mix it up so our passing game is lethal so we don't have to lean on Cook as much. I said it once and I'll say it again, Klint has a lot of very good players to work with on offense.

Last Edit: Jun 24, 2021 21:38:25 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 25, 2021 8:53:00 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Jun 25, 2021 8:53:00 GMT -6

Jun 24, 2021 15:33:14 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Drank , great point about the offense. It really feels like Zimmer and Spielman looked at the 2020 offensive stats (not W-L column) and said, "We have offensive production to spare - we can shave a little off to boost the defense." But I am concerned for the offense for 2 general reasons:

1. 2020 offensive output was unusually high - and when something hits a peak, it tends to come back down. Statisticians call it reversion to the mean. We might never again see such high numbers...and to a large extent, all that offensive production happened because we were deep in a hole playing catchup. Opponents were in prevent half the game.

2. The offense is a house of cards that could fall with as little as 1 key injury. OK, if I mention Cousins, people will either say "We don't need him!" or "Every team fails if they lose their starting QB". The second one is definitely true, we aren't likely to have a backup as good as the starter at QB, for most teams it isn't even close. But we still lose a season if Cousins has a season-ending injury. And then, what if Cook misses a lot of time? I think all the offensive plans are gone..and we have not really built a stable of RBs behind him. I think Mattison's limitations were evident last year, and Nnangwu's were in college. Also, I have serious doubts we could be productive if we lost either Thielen or Jefferson for half the season or more. JJ starting opposite Bisi? Opponents will have a safety shadow Bisi and triple-cover Jefferson. It's so true that we have ignored WR3, because that's what you get if you only throw 5th-rounders and UDFAs at the spot.

So we're counting on all 4 of those players staying healthy most of the season, or we are back to "good defense bad offense" which we have suffered for much of Zimmer's tenure. And that's assuming this defensive unit collected from different parts of the league suddenly plays like the 2017 team did.

I think regression puts it simply. I'm not sure the offense performs as well when we have less garbage time to work with. We've obviously benefited from it to some extent, the amount none of us truly knows. Cousins hasn't exactly been one to really step up in close games either. Sometimes he does, but his failures there have outnumbered his successes. His only hope is if Darrisaw and Davis show they are miles better than the competition and we field an average line this year. I like our offense's odds in that scenario. I don't like it at all if Hill and Dozier are starting week 1.

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 26, 2021 9:15:44 GMT -6

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Post by Purple Pain on Jun 26, 2021 9:15:44 GMT -6

Zone Coverage Mailbag:

I’m confident the Vikings’ scheme will be good next year — less because of Klint Kubiak personally and more because the wide zone, play action scheme is pretty foolproof. It’s led to playoff success for pretty much everyone who runs it (including the Tennessee Titans, Green Bay Packers, Cleveland Browns, Los Angeles Rams, and San Francisco 49ers).

And I have some confidence in Zimmer hiring the right guy for the job. Unfortunately Zimmer has all too much experience here, but outside of John DeFilippo I think Zimmer has done an impressive job finding great offensive coordinators during his tenure in Minnesota.

Kubiak himself is tough to predict. He did do a good job getting back-to-back career years out of Kirk Cousins as his quarterbacks coach over the last two years, but scheming, coaching, and calling an offense is a quite a jump in responsibility. Continuity will help, as will Kubiak’s background growing up around his dad — there are a lot of parallels to Mike Shanahan and Kyle Shanahan. But until Klint Kubiak actually starts calling plays, it’s hard to be overly confident.

Via DM: Generally, offensive success is easier to maintain than defense. Are there any concerns that the Vikings’ offense won’t be able to sustain its production of last season? It would be awesome to pair a top-10 offense and defense together!

Offensive efficiency is more stable than defensive efficiency, but it’s still pretty unpredictable year to year. Josh Hermsmeyer found that the year-over-year r-squared value for offensive DVOA was only 0.204 — better than defensive DVOA (which had an r-squared value of only 0.090), but still mostly random. That means how efficient an offense was a year ago only explains about 20% of how efficient it is the next year (as measured by DVOA).

Why is there so much randomness year to year? Injuries, for one. As mentioned above, the Vikings had the fifth-best injury luck on offense last year — they likely won’t be as lucky this year. Roster and coaching turnover is another factor. But while the Vikings will have a new coordinator and likely a couple new starters on the offensive line, since Klint Kubiak will be running the same system his father did last year and the Vikings will have the same skill players, there is some solid continuity there. Thielen will be turning 31 in August and may experience some age-related regression, but on the other hand, Jefferson and Smith Jr. are only 22 and getting better, and the entire projected starting offensive line are all still on their rookie contracts. While it’s possible the offense is slowed down by worse injury luck this year, I am still confident in the scheme and talent to project the offense to maintain its efficiency.

zonecoverage.com/2021/minnesota-vikings-news/olsons-mailbag-super-bowl-chances-defensive-scheming-whether-tanking-works-and-more/

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 28, 2021 11:03:22 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Jun 28, 2021 11:03:22 GMT -6

Jun 26, 2021 9:15:44 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

the entire projected starting offensive line are all still on their rookie contracts.

Sorry, I can't "project" Darrisaw and Davis to start until I see Dennison reducing his adoration for Dozier. IMO a lot of people are marking the OL as "fixed" a bit too soon.

Jun 26, 2021 9:15:44 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Thielen will be turning 31 in August and may experience some age-related regression

Of course Thielen will lose a bit of speed at some point, but given his hands and route-running, I really see him able to play into his mid-30s, in a role like Cris Carter.

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jun 28, 2021 19:02:32 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Jun 28, 2021 19:02:32 GMT -6

Jun 28, 2021 11:03:22 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jun 26, 2021 9:15:44 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

the entire projected starting offensive line are all still on their rookie contracts.

Sorry, I can't "project" Darrisaw and Davis to start until I see Dennison reducing his adoration for Dozier. IMO a lot of people are marking the OL as "fixed" a bit too soon.

Jun 26, 2021 9:15:44 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Thielen will be turning 31 in August and may experience some age-related regression

Of course Thielen will lose a bit of speed at some point, but given his hands and route-running, I really see him able to play into his mid-30s, in a role like Cris Carter.

I would be less worried about Darrisaw and Davis not starting Week 1, and worrying that they might have rough rookie seasons... Pat Elflein was able to crack the starting lineup Day 1 despite being behind a couple guys to start training camp, so I wouldn't assume Dozier starts over Davis.

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jul 11, 2021 21:08:49 GMT -6

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Post by Purple Pain on Jul 11, 2021 21:08:49 GMT -6

Zone Coverage: The Vikings Need More Weapons by Tanishka Mhaskar

Whether it be Cris Carter and Randy Moss or Adam Thielen and Stefon Diggs, the Minnesota Vikings almost always seem to have a good wide receiver duo. Their latest dream pairing is Thielen and Justin Jefferson. However, even having two great receivers is not enough.

In recent years, the NFL has found itself transforming into an offensive league driven by depth at every offensive position. And depth is something Minnesota’s top-heavy receiver room lacks. It’s that special something necessary to go far in January and hopefully into February.

To keep up with the ever-evolving offenses, NFL defenses are getting smarter too. Even two elite receiving options are not enough when opposing teams are employing six defensive backs on the field.

This showed up plenty just in the playoffs last year. Davante Adams is the best WR in the NFL and was enough for the Green Bay Packers to make the NFC Championship. But he mustered only 67 yards on 14 targets against a stifling Tampa Bay Buccaneers defense composed of multiple high-round draft picks.

The Seattle Seahawks may be the closest comp to Minnesota’s situation, with their elite receiving duo of D.K. Metcalf and Tyler Lockett. While they provided enough offense to help win the NFC West, the Seahawks were outclassed by the Los Angeles Rams, who have the NFL’s best secondary.

Three of the four championship teams were top-three passing offenses: the Buffalo Bills, Kansas City Chiefs, and Buccaneers. These teams employ some of the deepest WR cores in the NFL, which helped them make deep playoff runs. Recently, PFF’s Eric Eager created this chart:

The big takeaway here is that second and third receivers are more important than first receivers in Expected Points Added (EPA), and this gap only increases in the postseason. Third receivers are just as important as second receivers.

While the Vikings have two elite pass-catchers in Jefferson and Thielen, they still haven’t invested enough resources in a legitimate third wide receiver. In the past few offseasons, the Vikings threw darts at the board, signing role-players like Jordan Taylor, Kendall Wright, and Tajae Sharpe. This offseason, they didn’t even sign a single veteran receiver, despite having loads of cap room.

Here’s how the team could mitigate the need for a third wide receiver. However, it may not be the most sustainable idea...

Rest at link:

zonecoverage.com/2021/minnesota-vikings-news/the-vikings-need-more-weapons/

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jul 12, 2021 7:01:17 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jul 12, 2021 7:01:17 GMT -6

This showed up plenty just in the playoffs last year. Davante Adams is the best WR in the NFL and was enough for the Green Bay Packers to make the NFC Championship. But he mustered only 67 yards on 14 targets against a stifling Tampa Bay Buccaneers defense composed of multiple high-round draft picks.

GB scored 26 points and could have easily put up a lot more if Rodgers looked past his #1 WR in the red zone and saw his 2nd or 3rd option wide open. The Bucs D didn't play well in that game, Rodgers just didn't elevate the team the way a HOF QB should.

Adams is also not the best WR in the NFL. He had a great year with an elite QB throwing him the football, but how much of that success is Rodgers and that Oline buying him time to get open?

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Offense Concerns (plus kicker) Jul 12, 2021 15:45:43 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Jul 12, 2021 15:45:43 GMT -6

Jul 12, 2021 7:01:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

This showed up plenty just in the playoffs last year. Davante Adams is the best WR in the NFL and was enough for the Green Bay Packers to make the NFC Championship. But he mustered only 67 yards on 14 targets against a stifling Tampa Bay Buccaneers defense composed of multiple high-round draft picks.

GB scored 26 points and could have easily put up a lot more if Rodgers looked past his #1 WR in the red zone and saw his 2nd or 3rd option wide open. The Bucs D didn't play well in that game, Rodgers just didn't elevate the team the way a HOF QB should.

Adams is also not the best WR in the NFL. He had a great year with an elite QB throwing him the football, but how much of that success is Rodgers and that Oline buying him time to get open?

Rodgers had a much better game than Brady, against a better D. The Bucs D did great, Rodgers had a pretty good game, but they contained him because they are a top unit, it was one of their best performances of the season. Holding the best O in football to 26 points is absolutely having a great game.

Most of Adams production is on quick hitting routes. Your criticism doesn't match his player type. I dont know if he is the absolute best WR in football, but he is certainly in the conversation, and he likely was last year.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2021 15:47:11 GMT -6 by vikecycle

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