What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB?

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 15, 2021 9:49:39 GMT -6 via mobile comet52 likes this

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Post by mikenessfan on Apr 15, 2021 9:49:39 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 6:24:32 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Apr 15, 2021 5:03:35 GMT -6 Uncle said:

I think if you separate the QB's performance in the postseason that year from their career #'s, you'll see a pattern emerge...

I'm taking away Dilfer, Johnson & Manning because it's obvious their defenses were "elite" level and the main reason those teams were in the Super Bowl....so here are Eli's, Flaco's & Foles' numbers career-wise vs. their performance in the postseason that year...

Eli Manning career #'s: 60.3% Cmp%, 241.6 avg YPG, 1.5 avg TD per game, 1.0 avg INT per game, 84.1 RATE
Eli Manning 2007 postseason #'s: 60.5% Cmp%, 213.5 avg YPG, 1.5 avg TD per game, 0.25 INT per game, 95.7 RATE
Eli Manning 2011 postseason #'s: 65.0 Cmp%, 304.8 avg YPG, 2.25 avg TD per game, 0.25 INT per game, 103.3 RATE

Joe Flacco career #'s: 61.7 Cmp%, 232.6 avg YPG, 1.3 avg TD per game, 0.8 avg INT per game, 84.1 RATE
Joe Flacco 2012 postseason #'s: 285.0 avg YPG, 2.75 avg TD per game, 0.0 avg INT per game, 117.2 RATE

Nick Foles career #'s: 62.3 Cmp%, 205.3 avg YPG, 1.2 avg TD per game, 0.6 avg INT per game, 87.1 RATE
Nick Foles 2017 postseason #'s: 72.6 Cmp%, 323.7 YPG, 2.0 avg TD per game, 0.3 INT per game, 115.7 RATE

As you can see, each QB had elevated stats above their career stats during those Super Bowl postseasons - even Eli's 2007 postseason where he threw for less YPG, he still threw less INT's on avg and his QB RATE climbed over 95.0 when was a career 84 QB RATE passer. Eli's 2011, Flacco's 2012 and Foles' 20117 postseasons were significantly better than their career #'s.

What this seems to say is that you need a QB who has at least a QB RATE of 84.1 who "catches fire" during the postseason. Kirk's career QB RATE is 97.1...

So, this does lend some credence to the Wilf's plan of just trying to make the playoffs and hopefully trying to "catch fire" during one of those postseason runs...although I will agree, it's probably much easier to make the playoffs each year with a HOF-caliber QB at the helm, but in the absence of one, getting there with a capable QB is the next best plan and that's where the Vikes are.

Yes your good not great qb has to get hot at the right time, if you make the playoffs in the first place. The plan boils down to "someday maybe we get lucky". Ownership was born lucky so I can see why waiting around for this mess to accidentally congeal into greatness is their approach.

Or you could do the work to try to identify a future HOF caliber guy, come up with a plan to develop him, and execute the bold and risky moves to get him. And then your coach who never got a trophy would finally win one. Congratulations Andy Reid!

This is how I think about this whole topic also. Great post.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6 via mobile comet52 and Jor-El like this

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Post by FSUVike on Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 6:21:07 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Having a QB on a rookie contract so we can have super stars around them is huge. Look at the Vikings the last 15 years TJack on a rookie contract in '09 allowed us to afford the Williams Wall, JA, Hutch and of course Favre. In 2012 since Ponder was on a rookie contract we were able to build around him with better pieces around him despite him being a bust. 2015 Teddy on a rookie contract allowed us to build a good defense. Granted AP was the common factor in all 3 of those examples but we could pay him a higher contract then most wanted because our QB didn't have a 30-40 million dollar contact.

Look at Russell Wilson won a SB on his rookie contract the team hasn't been as successful since he got his money. Same with Mahomes his contract might start hurting the Chiefs in other areas once his big cap hits start

QBs that have won the Owl since 2010 on Rookie deals? 3: Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes. Going back further you get Ben, IRRC, and didn't Rodgers do it?

It's just not all that common. In fact, it's about the same as a Tier 2 guy getting hot in the Playoffs.

Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. are both Tier 2 QBs that should have won an Owl but the guy calling the plays is an arrogant know it all.

It can be done but you need near Elite-status on one side of the ball. The Falcons Offense was really good but not Elite and that Defense was pretty meh. The 9ers did it with an Elite pass rush and very good overall Defense.

As it stands now Minnesota is not close to being Elite or near it on either side of the ball. And I sure don't trust this FO/HC to get them there. So the prospects of winning it all with Beaker look pretty dire, IMO.

I think the best course of action is to get a HOF QB. How? Draft one. If he doesn't pan out in a couple of years Draft one again. And keep doing it until you get it right. It's not the Rookie Contract to me, it's the Player. Just don't look for the current regime to be the ones to find one. Need to clean house and start from scratch.

Last Edit: Apr 15, 2021 15:11:27 GMT -6 by FSUVike

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 15, 2021 17:45:44 GMT -6 Will and vikingpwr like this

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Post by Danchat on Apr 15, 2021 17:45:44 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

QBs that have won the Owl since 2010 on Rookie deals? 3: Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes. Going back further you get Ben, IRRC, and didn't Rodgers do it?

It's just not all that common. In fact, it's about the same as a Tier 2 guy getting hot in the Playoffs.

Even as far back in 2010, QBs didn't take up huge chunks of payroll. Now if you want to retain a guy like Dak Prescott, you've got to pony up $40M a year. That's one of the biggest factors in why you keep hearing about 'getting a QB on a rookie deal'.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 15, 2021 18:11:07 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 15, 2021 18:11:07 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

It can be done but you need near Elite-status on one side of the ball.

or both sides of the ball like the 1984 San Francisco 49er's and the 1999 St Louis Rams

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 15, 2021 18:22:09 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Apr 15, 2021 18:22:09 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 7:44:30 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Apr 15, 2021 6:52:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

don't know if that happened with that Giants team, and don't recall a storyline like that from 2011.

Two things happened with that Giants team:

1) After committing 24 turnovers in the regular season, they only gave up 1 in the playoffs. Their defense created 31 turnovers in the regular season and 7 in the playoffs.

2) As a result of the above, the Giants were able to control TOP and keep the likes of Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady off the field.

The other thing about that 2011 Giants team. Even thought they gave up 25 ppg during the regular season, when it came to the playoffs, they only gave up 14 ppg. The only score the Falcons got in the wild-card game was when Manning was penalized for intentional grounding from the endzone.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 15, 2021 18:45:48 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by ozzvic on Apr 15, 2021 18:45:48 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Apr 15, 2021 6:21:07 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Having a QB on a rookie contract so we can have super stars around them is huge. Look at the Vikings the last 15 years TJack on a rookie contract in '09 allowed us to afford the Williams Wall, JA, Hutch and of course Favre. In 2012 since Ponder was on a rookie contract we were able to build around him with better pieces around him despite him being a bust. 2015 Teddy on a rookie contract allowed us to build a good defense. Granted AP was the common factor in all 3 of those examples but we could pay him a higher contract then most wanted because our QB didn't have a 30-40 million dollar contact.

Look at Russell Wilson won a SB on his rookie contract the team hasn't been as successful since he got his money. Same with Mahomes his contract might start hurting the Chiefs in other areas once his big cap hits start

QBs that have won the Owl since 2010 on Rookie deals? 3: Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes. Going back further you get Ben, IRRC, and didn't Rodgers do it?

It's just not all that common. In fact, it's about the same as a Tier 2 guy getting hot in the Playoffs.

Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. are both Tier 2 QBs that should have won an Owl but the guy calling the plays is an arrogant know it all.

It can be done but you need near Elite-status on one side of the ball. The Falcons Offense was really good but not Elite and that Defense was pretty meh. The 9ers did it with an Elite pass rush and very good overall Defense.

As it stands now Minnesota is not close to being Elite or near it on either side of the ball. And I sure don't trust this FO/HC to get them there. So the prospects of winning it all with Beaker look pretty dire, IMO.

I think the best course of action is to get a HOF QB. How? Draft one. If he doesn't pan out in a couple of years Draft one again. And keep doing it until you get it right. It's not the Rookie Contract to me, it's the Player. Just don't look for the current regime to be the ones to find one. Need to clean house and start from scratch.

I have faith in the FO & coaching staff because what other choice do I have?. They will be around 11-6 this year and play on WC weekend and it will allow them to be here in 2022.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 16, 2021 5:48:22 GMT -6 Will likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 16, 2021 5:48:22 GMT -6

Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Apr 15, 2021 6:21:07 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Having a QB on a rookie contract so we can have super stars around them is huge. Look at the Vikings the last 15 years TJack on a rookie contract in '09 allowed us to afford the Williams Wall, JA, Hutch and of course Favre. In 2012 since Ponder was on a rookie contract we were able to build around him with better pieces around him despite him being a bust. 2015 Teddy on a rookie contract allowed us to build a good defense. Granted AP was the common factor in all 3 of those examples but we could pay him a higher contract then most wanted because our QB didn't have a 30-40 million dollar contact.

Look at Russell Wilson won a SB on his rookie contract the team hasn't been as successful since he got his money. Same with Mahomes his contract might start hurting the Chiefs in other areas once his big cap hits start

QBs that have won the Owl since 2010 on Rookie deals? 3: Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes. Going back further you get Ben, IRRC, and didn't Rodgers do it?

It's just not all that common. In fact, it's about the same as a Tier 2 guy getting hot in the Playoffs.

Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. are both Tier 2 QBs that should have won an Owl but the guy calling the plays is an arrogant know it all.

It can be done but you need near Elite-status on one side of the ball. The Falcons Offense was really good but not Elite and that Defense was pretty meh. The 9ers did it with an Elite pass rush and very good overall Defense.

As it stands now Minnesota is not close to being Elite or near it on either side of the ball. And I sure don't trust this FO/HC to get them there. So the prospects of winning it all with Beaker look pretty dire, IMO.

I think the best course of action is to get a HOF QB. How? Draft one. If he doesn't pan out in a couple of years Draft one again. And keep doing it until you get it right. It's not the Rookie Contract to me, it's the Player. Just don't look for the current regime to be the ones to find one. Need to clean house and start from scratch.

Since 2000, there have been 6 QBs who won it on rookie deals, Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes, Eli, Brady and Big Ben. Philly also won it paying their starter on his rookie deal and Foles pennies (comparitavely). 7 teams with QBs on rookie deals.

I will also point out that the the 2 QBs who got hot in the playoffs are also in that list of 7. That is not a coincidence.

Last Edit: Apr 16, 2021 5:51:18 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 16, 2021 9:00:51 GMT -6 Jor-El likes this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Apr 16, 2021 9:00:51 GMT -6

Apr 16, 2021 5:48:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 15, 2021 15:10:34 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

QBs that have won the Owl since 2010 on Rookie deals? 3: Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes. Going back further you get Ben, IRRC, and didn't Rodgers do it?

It's just not all that common. In fact, it's about the same as a Tier 2 guy getting hot in the Playoffs.

Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. are both Tier 2 QBs that should have won an Owl but the guy calling the plays is an arrogant know it all.

It can be done but you need near Elite-status on one side of the ball. The Falcons Offense was really good but not Elite and that Defense was pretty meh. The 9ers did it with an Elite pass rush and very good overall Defense.

As it stands now Minnesota is not close to being Elite or near it on either side of the ball. And I sure don't trust this FO/HC to get them there. So the prospects of winning it all with Beaker look pretty dire, IMO.

I think the best course of action is to get a HOF QB. How? Draft one. If he doesn't pan out in a couple of years Draft one again. And keep doing it until you get it right. It's not the Rookie Contract to me, it's the Player. Just don't look for the current regime to be the ones to find one. Need to clean house and start from scratch.

Since 2000, there have been 6 QBs who won it on rookie deals, Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes, Eli, Brady and Big Ben. Philly also won it paying their starter on his rookie deal and Foles pennies (comparitavely). 7 teams with QBs on rookie deals.

I will also point out that the the 2 QBs who got hot in the playoffs are also in that list of 7. That is not a coincidence.

I would point out that prior to 2011, being on a "Rookie Deal" did not make a young QB cheaper-at least first rounders. I am sure Manning, Roethlisberger and Flacco were making considerably more than even most veteran QBs at the time. Brady as a 6th rounder couldn't command big money. Wilson and Mahomes were pretty much slotted in to the rookie wage scales of their respective classes.

It was a different time.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 16, 2021 9:35:08 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 16, 2021 9:35:08 GMT -6

Apr 16, 2021 9:00:51 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Apr 16, 2021 5:48:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Since 2000, there have been 6 QBs who won it on rookie deals, Wilson, Flacco, Mahomes, Eli, Brady and Big Ben. Philly also won it paying their starter on his rookie deal and Foles pennies (comparitavely). 7 teams with QBs on rookie deals.

I will also point out that the the 2 QBs who got hot in the playoffs are also in that list of 7. That is not a coincidence.

I would point out that prior to 2011, being on a "Rookie Deal" did not make a young QB cheaper-at least first rounders. I am sure Manning, Roethlisberger and Flacco were making considerably more than even most veteran QBs at the time. Brady as a 6th rounder couldn't command big money. Wilson and Mahomes were pretty much slotted in to the rookie wage scales of their respective classes.

It was a different time.

That is a good point and something I hadn't really thought of. I wonder if that extra advantage teams have now with their rookie QB being paid so much less than a vet QB is why we are seeing a lot more QBs be successful early in their careers who struggle as soon as they get on their second contract? Like maybe Bradford isn't a crappy QB from start to finish if his team was able to add more pieces around him via free agency in his first 4 seasons.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 18, 2021 12:10:30 GMT -6

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Post by Will on Apr 18, 2021 12:10:30 GMT -6

Great conversation about how to win a Super Bowl. It does make sense to look for an Elite QB in college who will play for you for four + years. Easy to say, very hard to draft the right guy. But just because it is hard does not mean you should not be looking to find and draft that guy.

The stat from the table that stands out is how having a #1 or #2 pass rush helped teams win without an Elite QB. It happened in 5 of the 7 years shown, and you can argue that the 2011 Giants pass rush performed like a #1 or #2 pass rush in the playoffs. So Super Bowl winners without an Elite QB need a dominant pass rush. The good news is that the Vikings can draft and develop this capability.

The other reality is that many playoff teams have strong pass rushes, and if you cannot protect your QB, you are likely to lose. Even Mahomes could not overcome this problem against the Bucs, and he is mobile. So the Vikings need to invest in and develop better pass protection. It means superior pass protection is a higher priority than the running game. Here, the Vikings have failed for years.

The Eagles won with Nick Foles because he had time and his Offense executed. I would much rather have Cousins than many Qbs, but if the Vikings cannot build an elite pass rush and a strong offensive line because of Cousins' contract, then they need to move on from Cousins. I suspect that coaches, scouts, and the GM are optimistic they can build both lines, but they have not proven they can do it on the Offensive Line.

I hope they draft an edge rusher and two offensive linemen in their first three picks.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 19, 2021 6:22:30 GMT -6 Will and Jor-El like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 19, 2021 6:22:30 GMT -6

Apr 18, 2021 12:10:30 GMT -6 Will said:

Great conversation about how to win a Super Bowl. It does make sense to look for an Elite QB in college who will play for you for four + years. Easy to say, very hard to draft the right guy. But just because it is hard does not mean you should not be looking to find and draft that guy.

The stat from the table that stands out is how having a #1 or #2 pass rush helped teams win without an Elite QB. It happened in 5 of the 7 years shown, and you can argue that the 2011 Giants pass rush performed like a #1 or #2 pass rush in the playoffs. So Super Bowl winners without an Elite QB need a dominant pass rush. The good news is that the Vikings can draft and develop this capability.

The other reality is that many playoff teams have strong pass rushes, and if you cannot protect your QB, you are likely to lose. Even Mahomes could not overcome this problem against the Bucs, and he is mobile. So the Vikings need to invest in and develop better pass protection. It means superior pass protection is a higher priority than the running game. Here, the Vikings have failed for years.

The Eagles won with Nick Foles because he had time and his Offense executed. I would much rather have Cousins than many Qbs, but if the Vikings cannot build an elite pass rush and a strong offensive line because of Cousins' contract, then they need to move on from Cousins. I suspect that coaches, scouts, and the GM are optimistic they can build both lines, but they have not proven they can do it on the Offensive Line.

I hope they draft an edge rusher and two offensive linemen in their first three picks.

Foles is an example of a guy who won with an almost perfect team around him, but he also won because MN and NE were caught off guard by him. If he had been the QB the whole season and had film on the handful of plays he ran really well in the playffs, there is 0 chance he wins it all.

To your point about pass protection, it just doesn't seem to be as important as a great pass rush, any more than a good secondary is as important to having a great QB. The one just doesn't cancel out the other. Great pass rushes will almost always win against a good oline in the playoffs, and a great QB will almost always win against a good secondary.

The Vikings have a choice to make in the upcoming draft regarding whether they go for that elite pass rush and fill the glaring hole on the edge, or if they fill the glaring hole at LT. One gives them better odds of winning in the regular season, the other is probably the 3rd most important factor in winning the SB behind QB and HC.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 19, 2021 9:11:07 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

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Post by Jor-El on Apr 19, 2021 9:11:07 GMT -6

Apr 16, 2021 9:00:51 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

I would point out that prior to 2011, being on a "Rookie Deal" did not make a young QB cheaper-at least first rounders. I am sure Manning, Roethlisberger and Flacco were making considerably more than even most veteran QBs at the time. Brady as a 6th rounder couldn't command big money. Wilson and Mahomes were pretty much slotted in to the rookie wage scales of their respective classes.

This is such an overlooked point and I don't know how the idea that "Having a QB on a rookie contract is how you win a SB" has become entrenched as an article of faith among sportswriters. I heard someone on the radio this weekend pushing it, and the examples he gave were Mahomes and then he said, "and Drew Brees won it on his rookie deal"...wrong on so many levels.

The concept couldn't even exist until 2011 when the rookie wage scale started. Sam Bradford (sorry to pick on old Sam, but...) was the last pre-scale #1 QB and his deal had him in the top 10 cap hit for QB salaries by his second year and 2nd in the league by his 3rd. So we have 10 seasons where the concept could even apply. 2 teams have won a Super Bowl with a QB on a rookie contract - the Seahawks and the Chiefs. Two other teams (Rams and Seahawks again) made it to the game and lost. Either way, it has only been correct 20% of the time...I would call that interesting at best, but not useful as a planning tool.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 19, 2021 9:47:03 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Apr 19, 2021 9:47:03 GMT -6

Rodgers career in Green Bay. HOF QB without top defense.

Year	W 	L 	T		Outcome	      Points D Points  D PPG  PPG Rank
2020	13	3	0		Lost Conf	509	369	23.1	13
2019	13	3	0		Lost Conf	376	313	19.6	 9
2018	 6	9	1		No playoff	376	400	25.0	22
2017	 7	9	0		No playoff	320	384	24.0	26
2016	10	6	0		Lost Conf	432	388	24.3	21
2015	10	6	0		Lost Div	368	323	20.2	12
2014	12	4	0		Lost Conf	486	348	21.8	13
2013	 8	7	1		Lost WC	        417	428	26.8	24
2012	11	5	0		Lost Div	433	336	21.0	11
2011	15	1	0		Lost Div	560	359	22.4	19
2010	10	6	0		Won SB	        388	240	15.0	 2
2009	11	5	0		Lost WC	        461	297	18.6	 7
2008	 6	10	0		No playoff	419	380	23.8	22

Last Edit: Apr 19, 2021 9:49:43 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 19, 2021 10:52:17 GMT -6 Will likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 19, 2021 10:52:17 GMT -6

Apr 19, 2021 9:11:07 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Apr 16, 2021 9:00:51 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

I would point out that prior to 2011, being on a "Rookie Deal" did not make a young QB cheaper-at least first rounders. I am sure Manning, Roethlisberger and Flacco were making considerably more than even most veteran QBs at the time. Brady as a 6th rounder couldn't command big money. Wilson and Mahomes were pretty much slotted in to the rookie wage scales of their respective classes.

This is such an overlooked point and I don't know how the idea that "Having a QB on a rookie contract is how you win a SB" has become entrenched as an article of faith among sportswriters. I heard someone on the radio this weekend pushing it, and the examples he gave were Mahomes and then he said, "and Drew Brees won it on his rookie deal"...wrong on so many levels.

The concept couldn't even exist until 2011 when the rookie wage scale started. Sam Bradford (sorry to pick on old Sam, but...) was the last pre-scale #1 QB and his deal had him in the top 10 cap hit for QB salaries by his second year and 2nd in the league by his 3rd. So we have 10 seasons where the concept could even apply. 2 teams have won a Super Bowl with a QB on a rookie contract - the Seahawks and the Chiefs. Two other teams (Rams and Seahawks again) made it to the game and lost. Either way, it has only been correct 20% of the time...I would call that interesting at best, but not useful as a planning tool.

Mahomes wasn't making his big contract yet this past year, and Philly was paying rookie money to their starter when they won.

3 of the past 10 SBs have been won by teams paying their starters QBs rookie money and 6 of the past 20 SB teams have been paying their starter rookie salaries. It is as much of a trend over the past 10 seasons as Tom Brady going to the SB. Only 9 non-rookie/non-Brady lead teams have played in a SB since 2011. 1 of those was Flacco who was technically still on his rookie deal, but one signed prior to the wage scale, one was Eli, Peyton Manning X 2,Cam Newton Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. Kapp also was in one on a rookie contract, but Smith was the starter that year and not on a rookie deal. Combined those two made about half of what the top earner made that year.

12 of the past 20 SB teams were paying close to or more than 10% of the salary cap, but only 6 of those were not QB'd by Tom Brady. So if you don't have Tom Brady on your team, the odds say you are better off going with a guy on a rookie deal.

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What Does it Take to Win it all With a Non-HOF QB? Apr 20, 2021 9:23:25 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by giveu1guess on Apr 20, 2021 9:23:25 GMT -6

Apr 19, 2021 9:47:03 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Rodgers career in Green Bay. HOF QB without top defense.

Year	W 	L 	T		Outcome	      Points D Points  D PPG  PPG Rank
2020	13	3	0		Lost Conf	509	369	23.1	13
2019	13	3	0		Lost Conf	376	313	19.6	 9
2018	 6	9	1		No playoff	376	400	25.0	22
2017	 7	9	0		No playoff	320	384	24.0	26
2016	10	6	0		Lost Conf	432	388	24.3	21
2015	10	6	0		Lost Div	368	323	20.2	12
2014	12	4	0		Lost Conf	486	348	21.8	13
2013	 8	7	1		Lost WC	        417	428	26.8	24
2012	11	5	0		Lost Div	433	336	21.0	11
2011	15	1	0		Lost Div	560	359	22.4	19
2010	10	6	0		Won SB	        388	240	15.0	 2
2009	11	5	0		Lost WC	        461	297	18.6	 7
2008	 6	10	0		No playoff	419	380	23.8	22

Are we supposed to skip over "won SB"...... wonder what that would feel like............