No on Defense/ OL only Zone!

vikingpwr
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 12:04:17 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 12, 2021 12:04:17 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 6:56:34 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 11, 2021 11:28:02 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Your take on our 2020 offense is kinda harsh. The pass protection and converting on 3rd and short weren't very good but all in all it was a good offense. I'm curious to know how our offense compared to the other 31 teams in garbage time stats in 2020.

Our D was brutal in 2020 and that's an understatement. With that said I can't wait to see how our run defense looks like with Pierce and Tomlinson in the interior.

Our D had by far the harder schedule as far as offensives they faced. DVOA had the defenses strength of schedule as the 4th hardest in the NFL and that means a regression to the mean should make the defense better on its own. The Vikings played 4 games against top 4 offenses last season and 6 games against top 10 ones. Next season the defense has a considerably easier offensive schedule, playing very few explosive offenses like the NO, TB, GB X2, and TN offenses they faced last season. It should be above average based on strength of schedule alone.

The offense on the other hand? It had the 25th most difficult schedule last season, and is looking at a more difficult schedule next season. Last year we played 7 games against teams among the bottom 10 defenses, and averaged 30 points per game against them. Against the rest of the NFL we averaged 24 points per game, which isn't horrible, but it is probably closer to what we finish this season without significant improvement via the draft, based on the schedule. A slightly below average offense with significant weaknesses at the QB and Oline positions. That is what we were last season, and that is what it is looking like we will be next season as well.

To be frankly honest I look mainly at wins and losses in pro sports. You either win or lose and in some cases tie. I'm not someone who delves into rankings, grades, and whatever formulas they use to breakdown everything NFL. It's to much information for me. I had to look up DVOA. I started watching NFL football in the 70s. There are some stats that are black and white that I can get on board with but for the most part it's win or lose. Generally the team that executes better offensively and defensively during a game usually comes out on top.

diehardtwinsfan claimed part of the reason our offense was ranked 4th in 2020 was because of garbage time stats. I was just curious to see how our offense compared with the other 31 teams in this garbage time stat (2020). I've heard that term used before especially when discussing the Vikings and Kirk. How do you even gauge something like that?

whoskmoon
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 12:51:15 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 12, 2021 12:51:15 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 12:04:17 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Apr 12, 2021 6:56:34 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Our D had by far the harder schedule as far as offensives they faced. DVOA had the defenses strength of schedule as the 4th hardest in the NFL and that means a regression to the mean should make the defense better on its own. The Vikings played 4 games against top 4 offenses last season and 6 games against top 10 ones. Next season the defense has a considerably easier offensive schedule, playing very few explosive offenses like the NO, TB, GB X2, and TN offenses they faced last season. It should be above average based on strength of schedule alone.

The offense on the other hand? It had the 25th most difficult schedule last season, and is looking at a more difficult schedule next season. Last year we played 7 games against teams among the bottom 10 defenses, and averaged 30 points per game against them. Against the rest of the NFL we averaged 24 points per game, which isn't horrible, but it is probably closer to what we finish this season without significant improvement via the draft, based on the schedule. A slightly below average offense with significant weaknesses at the QB and Oline positions. That is what we were last season, and that is what it is looking like we will be next season as well.

To be frankly honest I look mainly at wins and losses in pro sports. You either win or lose and in some cases tie. I'm not someone who delves into rankings, grades, and whatever formulas they use to breakdown everything NFL. It's to much information for me. I had to look up DVOA. I started watching NFL football in the 70s. There are some stats that are black and white that I can get on board with but for the most part it's win or lose. Generally the team that executes better offensively and defensively during a game usually comes out on top.

diehardtwinsfan claimed part of the reason our offense was ranked 4th in 2020 was because of garbage time stats. I was just curious to see how our offense compared with the other 31 teams in this garbage time stat (2020). I've heard that term used before especially when discussing the Vikings and Kirk. How do you even gauge something like that?

Well, I can help you there.

The Vikings were 8th in most yards in GT. If you subtracted the 400 yards they got in GT (as well as the GT from every other team), they would drop from 4th to around 12th). Yards don't win you games though, and scoring wise the Vikings were 3rd in the NFL in points that were scored when the game was already decided at roughly 42 (I don't have whether a TD ended up in 6,7 or 8 points). That drops them from 11th to 15th in scoring.

As I was implying with my post above, the offense was not as good as the numbers indicated, and the numbers weren't that great to begin with. A lesser Oline, Thielen getting a year older, Cook coming off a season where he took a ton of hits and a much more difficult schedule leads me to think this offense will be average at best if it stands pat.

That being said, I don't think there is a player in this draft who could improve this team offensively over last year. There are rookies who could get us back to what we were, but not improve us. For improvement, which we need because even the 11th best offense isn't good enough, we need Smith, Cleveland, Bradbury and to a lesser extent JJ, take the next step. Those first 3 need to become above average starters, while JJ needs to continue his success with teams having film on him in his second year.

Last Edit: Apr 12, 2021 12:51:47 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

vikingpwr
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 13:18:30 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 12, 2021 13:18:30 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 12:51:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Well, I can help you there.

The Vikings were 8th in most yards in GT. If you subtracted the 400 yards they got in GT (as well as the GT from every other team), they would drop from 4th to around 12th). Yards don't win you games though, and scoring wise the Vikings were 3rd in the NFL in points that were scored when the game was already decided at roughly 42 (I don't have whether a TD ended up in 6,7 or 8 points). That drops them from 11th to 15th in scoring.

As I was implying with my post above, the offense was not as good as the numbers indicated, and the numbers weren't that great to begin with. A lesser Oline, Thielen getting a year older, Cook coming off a season where he took a ton of hits and a much more difficult schedule leads me to think this offense will be average at best if it stands pat.

That being said, I don't think there is a player in this draft who could improve this team offensively over last year. There are rookies who could get us back to what we were, but not improve us. For improvement, which we need because even the 11th best offense isn't good enough, we need Smith, Cleveland, Bradbury and to a lesser extent JJ, take the next step. Those first 3 need to become above average starters, while JJ needs to continue his success with teams having film on him in his second year.

Thanks for the breakdown. I feel I have a much better understanding of it now.

Improving this offense this season comes down to the OL IMO. Get the right 5 guys on a string and the sky's the limit on offense. We certainly don't lack in the other 6 offensive positions and I'm sure we'll add a player or two (non-OL) that could contribute in a positive way.

Again, thanks for posting a reply.

Last Edit: Apr 12, 2021 13:19:41 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

diehardtwinsfan
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 13:57:43 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Apr 12, 2021 13:57:43 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 13:18:30 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Apr 12, 2021 12:51:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Well, I can help you there.

The Vikings were 8th in most yards in GT. If you subtracted the 400 yards they got in GT (as well as the GT from every other team), they would drop from 4th to around 12th). Yards don't win you games though, and scoring wise the Vikings were 3rd in the NFL in points that were scored when the game was already decided at roughly 42 (I don't have whether a TD ended up in 6,7 or 8 points). That drops them from 11th to 15th in scoring.

As I was implying with my post above, the offense was not as good as the numbers indicated, and the numbers weren't that great to begin with. A lesser Oline, Thielen getting a year older, Cook coming off a season where he took a ton of hits and a much more difficult schedule leads me to think this offense will be average at best if it stands pat.

That being said, I don't think there is a player in this draft who could improve this team offensively over last year. There are rookies who could get us back to what we were, but not improve us. For improvement, which we need because even the 11th best offense isn't good enough, we need Smith, Cleveland, Bradbury and to a lesser extent JJ, take the next step. Those first 3 need to become above average starters, while JJ needs to continue his success with teams having film on him in his second year.

Thanks for the breakdown. I feel I have a much better understanding of it now.

Improving this offense this season comes down to the OL IMO. Get the right 5 guys on a string and the sky's the limit on offense. We certainly don't lack in the other 6 offensive positions and I'm sure we'll add a player or two (non-OL) that could contribute in a positive way.

Again, thanks for posting a reply.

This I agree with generally... but do Rick and Mike?

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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 14:28:40 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 12, 2021 14:28:40 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 13:57:43 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

Apr 12, 2021 13:18:30 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Thanks for the breakdown. I feel I have a much better understanding of it now.

Improving this offense this season comes down to the OL IMO. Get the right 5 guys on a string and the sky's the limit on offense. We certainly don't lack in the other 6 offensive positions and I'm sure we'll add a player or two (non-OL) that could contribute in a positive way.

Again, thanks for posting a reply.

This I agree with generally... but do Rick and Mike?

I think Rick and Mike believe, rightfully so, that building an Oline on the level that could make this offense elite would be as hard as finding the next elite QB.

So instead of trying to do either, they are are focusing on one side of the ball and trying to make the offense less important to winning.

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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 14:31:34 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by giveu1guess on Apr 12, 2021 14:31:34 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 14:28:40 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 12, 2021 13:57:43 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

This I agree with generally... but do Rick and Mike?

I think Rick and Mike believe, rightfully so, that building an Oline on the level that could make this offense elite would be as hard as finding the next elite QB.

So instead of trying to do either, they are are focusing on one side of the ball and trying to make the offense less important to winning.

That actually sounds about right about them..... let's halfway ignore one side of the ball..... only those two geniuses can be that clever.....

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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 14:44:41 GMT -6 giveu1guess likes this

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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 14:44:41 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 14:31:34 GMT -6 giveu1guess said:

Apr 12, 2021 14:28:40 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I think Rick and Mike believe, rightfully so, that building an Oline on the level that could make this offense elite would be as hard as finding the next elite QB.

So instead of trying to do either, they are are focusing on one side of the ball and trying to make the offense less important to winning.

That actually sounds about right about them..... let's halfway ignore one side of the ball..... only those two geniuses can be that clever.....

27th and 30th last 2 yrs in pass attempts, with 2 great WRs. Scrap work on the OL. I also notice outside of O'Neill all our current OL blows in pass protection, but the offense has free reign 🤷🏾‍♂️😂. All these weapons yet held back in a NFL tailor made to benefit passing offense just silly. Even Saban sees it but nope not Zimmy. Everybody around the league know we going to be running instead of being balanced and keeping teams off balanced. We pass a lot only when we have to, which makes it look like we pass as much. That is where stats lie we run run run and pass in desperation.

Last Edit: Apr 12, 2021 14:47:46 GMT -6 by Deleted

whoskmoon
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 16:23:57 GMT -6 via mobile vikingpwr likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 12, 2021 16:23:57 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 14:44:41 GMT -6 @justmy2cents said:

Apr 12, 2021 14:31:34 GMT -6 giveu1guess said:

That actually sounds about right about them..... let's halfway ignore one side of the ball..... only those two geniuses can be that clever.....

27th and 30th last 2 yrs in pass attempts, with 2 great WRs. Scrap work on the OL. I also notice outside of O'Neill all our current OL blows in pass protection, but the offense has free reign 🤷🏾‍♂️😂. All these weapons yet held back in a NFL tailor made to benefit passing offense just silly. Even Saban sees it but nope not Zimmy. Everybody around the league know we going to be running instead of being balanced and keeping teams off balanced. We pass a lot only when we have to, which makes it look like we pass as much. That is where stats lie we run run run and pass in desperation.

We passed the ball 9 times fewer than GB, 5 or so fewer than NO and more than TN. The run pass balance we had was what works for the best offenses in the NFL. That isnt the problem.

vikingbill Team Captain Posts: 1,651 Likes: 743	No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 17:10:14 GMT -6 Danchat likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by vikingbill on Apr 12, 2021 17:10:14 GMT -6 Apr 6, 2021 22:12:02 GMT -6 @justmy2cents said: Plus Rodgers not getting long term security. Been hearing this alot But technically Rodgers is only entering the second year of a 4 year ext.

vikingpwr
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 12, 2021 18:21:20 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 12, 2021 18:21:20 GMT -6

Apr 12, 2021 14:28:40 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 12, 2021 13:57:43 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

This I agree with generally... but do Rick and Mike?

I think Rick and Mike believe, rightfully so, that building an Oline on the level that could make this offense elite would be as hard as finding the next elite QB.

So instead of trying to do either, they are are focusing on one side of the ball and trying to make the offense less important to winning.

Maybe Ricky, Zim and Dennison believe that they could build a elite OL this offseason with the O-linemen already on the roster and a few from the draft. I'm kind of skeptical about this but who knows, it might workout. It would be nice to have an elite OL for a change or at least one that could run block AND pass block consistently.

Last Edit: Apr 12, 2021 18:22:35 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

vikingbill
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 13, 2021 6:01:49 GMT -6 vikingpwr, giveu1guess, and 1 more like this

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Post by vikingbill on Apr 13, 2021 6:01:49 GMT -6

Here's an article that is basically saying this regime has no clue on what there doing regarding the oline.

vikingsterritory.com/2021/general-news/the-vikings-o-line-philosophy-has-been-flawed-since-the-beginning

Last Edit: Apr 13, 2021 6:02:34 GMT -6 by vikingbill

vikingbill Team Captain Posts: 1,651 Likes: 743	No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 13, 2021 6:06:21 GMT -6 vikingpwr and giveu1guess like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by vikingbill on Apr 13, 2021 6:06:21 GMT -6 This one is a good read regarding the draft www.dailynorseman.com/2021/4/12/22368849/vikings-looking-to-draft-a-guard-not-a-tackle

vikingpwr
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 13, 2021 11:45:58 GMT -6 vikingbill and giveu1guess like this

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 13, 2021 11:45:58 GMT -6

Apr 13, 2021 6:01:49 GMT -6 vikingbill said:

Here's an article that is basically saying this regime has no clue on what there doing regarding the oline.

vikingsterritory.com/2021/general-news/the-vikings-o-line-philosophy-has-been-flawed-since-the-beginning

Like many other fans I was very surprised Ricky didn't select a few more O-linemen in last year's draft.....we had 15 picks. The interior O-linemen free agents he signed since 2018 have been weak. The Tom Comptons, Josh Klines, Dakota Doziers and Brett Jones' of the world aren't cutting it and it's really been frustrating. I could only imagine what the plan is with our OL this season.

Last Edit: Apr 13, 2021 11:46:35 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

vikingpwr
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No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 13, 2021 11:48:56 GMT -6 vikingbill likes this

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 13, 2021 11:48:56 GMT -6

Apr 13, 2021 6:06:21 GMT -6 vikingbill said:

This one is a good read regarding the draft

www.dailynorseman.com/2021/4/12/22368849/vikings-looking-to-draft-a-guard-not-a-tackle

I actually read both of these articles yesterday and came away thinking that Rick Dennison will finally unleash Oli............ *clap*

whoskmoon Content Creator Posts: 8,880 Likes: 7,223	No on Defense/ OL only Zone! Apr 19, 2021 6:33:44 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by whoskmoon on Apr 19, 2021 6:33:44 GMT -6 Interesting Vikings' stat from last season on the impact the Oline has on wins and losses: Pressured QB DB% in wins: 38.5 Pressured QB DB% in losses: 38.7