Are we being totally fair to Cousins!

vikingpitbull
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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 12:42:52 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on May 14, 2020 12:42:52 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 11:59:25 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

May 14, 2020 6:16:48 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

How do you figure there are only 2 elite QBs?

Self-explanatory.

May 14, 2020 6:16:48 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

So Sherman's words are gospel but anything against Kirk you will dismiss?

Did I say Sherman's words were gospel?

You made this comment:

May 13, 2020 21:42:27 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

If you look back I posted what teammates have said about Kirk and being more worried about stats then winning. I doubt you will ever find an article like that about the elite QBs.

I found you one of the many pieces about Wilson's teammates having issues with him. I admitted it wasn't exactly the same as the specifics in your article, but there are clearly locker room issues with "an elite quarterback", when you implied there weren't. Those issues have been discussed for years. And, no, it's not just Sherman - several teammates, several teammates from a veteran locker room, a Super Bowl-winning locker room... This wasn't Washington talking; this was Seattle. Regardless, this doesn't matter to me. I was just pointing out to you, that, yes, issues do exist with elite quarterbacks. Look no further than Wilson and Seattle.

Regarding Cousins, I've read a lot of nonsense from the media in Washington and supposed comments from former teammates. Looks like by the stats I showed, Cousins wasn't the issue. Until they can find a way to win without him, maybe they should keep their ridiculous trash-talking to themselves, because, quite frankly, it's laughable. Embarrassing, really...

May 14, 2020 6:16:48 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

So you will dismiss a WR forcing his way out because of said QB and William's not wanting to play again with Kirk which was stated. How about Adam's issues with Kirk? You better thank your lucky stars that AT is still here. I doubt if he wasn't living his childhood dreams playing for his home town team he would still be in town. Just throw the ball!!!

Yeah, Williams "not wanting to play with Cousins again" was proven to be nothing more than media-driven speculation. He and his agent denied those rumors. It's not suspicious at all actually that, at his age, and after his situation, that he'd want to go to a team that is stacked, was just in the Super Bowl, and one with a HC who he is familiar with. Not that big of a deal nor surprising. People just making mountains out of molehills to try to trash Cousins. It's actually kinda creepy how obsessive the anti-Cousins media is. Gross. Anything to speculate about people not liking the guy! Good lord...

Regarding Diggs? I've made my opinions known on that. Diggs' issues weren't necessarily with Cousins. They were with the offense, as a whole. He's gone out of his way several times to say he loves Kirk and Kirk is his/their guy. He spoke out against the hate Cousins gets, too. Even gave him love in his goodbye article. But, regarding this Diggs vs. Cousins stuff, Diggs is irrelevant to me when he QUIT ON THE TEAM. If y'all want to applaud that, because you think it was to diss Cousins, well, go ahead, but I'm not going to do that. Team before individuals. I have no issues with Thielen showing passion and frustration on the football field and with some comments here or there. I know it came from the right place: wanting to win. They cleared it up and all was good. Diggs quitting on the team? Zero excuses for that, so until Thielen turns into a "me guy" and decides to not show up to work, let's quit pretending it's even close to the same situation. It's not.

Please explain....

Yes you did take his words as gospel and in the same breath said nothing is believable in Washington nor are there any signs of it in Minnesota. That is false.

You found 1 person not a team and it wasn't about a players personality it's about on field performance.

So Washington = Minnesota because we are getting the same end results. Them "Washington" being a slightly bigger turd is another feather in your cap? Kirk was the final piece and an all in push for a SB. Anything short of that is failure. Not by my standards but what the GM and HC sold you.

No what was killed is that he didn't want to come to Minnesota but I don't care about speculation because William's was never coming here. He played his ace and got what he wanted. He was going to the 9ers and it's easy to connect the dots.

Yep we will see what happens. I bet you will regret Diggs being gone. Why would any player want out if he was happy? It's not some sort of conspiracy that Diggs had issue with Kirk no more than Thielen.

I find it comical fans turn on players so fast and hang onto others way too long. I can guarantee without Diggs last year this team wasn't. 500.

Yeah Diggs quit on the team LOL please....

Take time to read this and you might just see Diggs did have direct issue with Kirk and it was known.

www.skornorth.com/2020/03/what-happened-between-the-vikings-and-stefon-diggs/

Last Edit: May 14, 2020 12:54:10 GMT -6 by vikingpitbull

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 12:44:11 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on May 14, 2020 12:44:11 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 12:27:37 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Very few call Cousins trash, just an over paid slightly above average QB, and he is better than a rookie who looks very much like a bust, a journeyman backup, and 2nd and 3rd stringers. He apparently is not better than a healthy Griffen as a rookie, or Alex Smith, who both managed more success with Washington.

People throw trash away. People want to throw Cousins away. Redskins fans and Vikings fans... both equally as misguided.

I didn't love his contract either, but as we see more and more QBs get paid, I let that go. We all have to.

I think he's better than slightly above average, but either way, we can definitely win with Cousins. I don't understand all the hate he gets.

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 12:51:23 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on May 14, 2020 12:51:23 GMT -6

Since I wont copy and paste copies and pasted Twitter 1 liners. It's quite telling if you actually look at full bodies of work instead of cherry picked stats that paint with little subject matter and a ton subjective samples.

I can debunk any twitter post you have shown if I cared to. They are nothing more then hits and retweets. It's today's instant gratification without truth. Half truths are the in thing.

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 12:54:21 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 12:54:21 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 12:41:45 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 14, 2020 12:10:46 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

A Cousins apologist? I mean, you could call me a Teddy apologist and a Zimmer apologist, but I am far from a Cousins apologist. I just think the way people unfairly pile on him gets pretty old.

I don't get caught up on the "versus winning teams" stuff, though.

There are plenty of pieces that suggest, oftentimes, Cousins had played well enough to win in several of those primetime games, so ... it is what it is. Can't go back; we can only go forward.

Cousins has a 18% win percentage against winning teams, but lets downplay that by pointing out the Packers with Rodgers and without him for a number of games only win 41% and John Elway won 45 % and Manning only won 48%!

There seems to be a massive gap there, but I must be mistaken and this is not BS deflection from a stat that should trouble any fan that wants their team to win a SB.

This is like arguing a QB who complete 30% of his passes isn't that inaccurate because most QBs only complete about 60%.

It is not when those guys have had 100 chances compared to 30 for Cousins. I don't care about other teams but I recall the Redskins sucking and they still do. Alex Smith did so much better? hum.. Didn't Cousins make the playoffs once with the Redskins not sure but I thought he did. Did Smith can't recall if he did or not? They wanted Cousins gone so bad but they paid him on the franchise tag several years when they could have just let him go way quicker. Seems weird to stretch a guy out that every player on the team hates so much and pay him franchise tag money.

Last Edit: May 14, 2020 12:57:41 GMT -6 by Deleted

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 14:13:43 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on May 14, 2020 14:13:43 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 12:54:21 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

May 14, 2020 12:41:45 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Cousins has a 18% win percentage against winning teams, but lets downplay that by pointing out the Packers with Rodgers and without him for a number of games only win 41% and John Elway won 45 % and Manning only won 48%!

There seems to be a massive gap there, but I must be mistaken and this is not BS deflection from a stat that should trouble any fan that wants their team to win a SB.

This is like arguing a QB who complete 30% of his passes isn't that inaccurate because most QBs only complete about 60%.

It is not when those guys have had 100 chances compared to 30 for Cousins. I don't care about other teams but I recall the Redskins sucking and they still do. Alex Smith did so much better? hum.. Didn't Cousins make the playoffs once with the Redskins not sure but I thought he did. Did Smith can't recall if he did or not? They wanted Cousins gone so bad but they paid him on the franchise tag several years when they could have just let him go way quicker. Seems weird to stretch a guy out that every player on the team hates so much and pay him franchise tag money.

30 games is a large sample size, and it isn't like it is getting better. 2-10 as a Viking falls in line with the rest of his career.

Smith was 6-3 when he got hurt for the Skins. Took over a team that was 7-9 with Cousins, and went won twice as many games as he lost.

I think the Skins knew Cousins better than anyone and wanted him around. They just didn't want him around so bad that were willing to pay him like he was the greatest player in the history of the NFL. They wanted to pay him like the 3rd tier QB he is, something I would be okay with as long as it didn't mean we passed on guys like Jackson in the draft because we already have Cousins. He should be a bridge QB to finding your young, cheap QB on a rookie deal.

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 14:21:58 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 14:21:58 GMT -6

Mark my words and it was heard here first. Lamar Jackson will be done in like 5yrs. His style won't last long believe me. Jackson success is built on Ravens using him right. Thielen and Diggs were mad at Cousins and us running so much imagine how they would act with Lamar would have been ugly. Remember I said it Jackson won't last long.

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 14:31:26 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 14:31:26 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 14:13:43 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 14, 2020 12:54:21 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

It is not when those guys have had 100 chances compared to 30 for Cousins. I don't care about other teams but I recall the Redskins sucking and they still do. Alex Smith did so much better? hum.. Didn't Cousins make the playoffs once with the Redskins not sure but I thought he did. Did Smith can't recall if he did or not? They wanted Cousins gone so bad but they paid him on the franchise tag several years when they could have just let him go way quicker. Seems weird to stretch a guy out that every player on the team hates so much and pay him franchise tag money.

30 games is a large sample size, and it isn't like it is getting better. 2-10 as a Viking falls in line with the rest of his career.

Smith was 6-3 when he got hurt for the Skins. Took over a team that was 7-9 with Cousins, and went won twice as many games as he lost.

I think the Skins knew Cousins better than anyone and wanted him around. They just didn't want him around so bad that were willing to pay him like he was the greatest player in the history of the NFL. They wanted to pay him like the 3rd tier QB he is, something I would be okay with as long as it didn't mean we passed on guys like Jackson in the draft because we already have Cousins. He should be a bridge QB to finding your young, cheap QB on a rookie deal.

You was talking %. His is low because of less games. Let's take a baseball analogy. If you have 30 plate appearances the strikeouts will lower your batting average more than 100 appearances because you had more chances. Having more chances gives you more chances at home runs and driving in runs helping your average. Same with a test some would rather have a 20 question test not me give me the 100 question one. I can miss more and still get a good grade widen my margin for error. That is why his winning % is lower than those with way more games and opportunities.

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 14:42:57 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on May 14, 2020 14:42:57 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 12:44:11 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

May 14, 2020 12:27:37 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Very few call Cousins trash, just an over paid slightly above average QB, and he is better than a rookie who looks very much like a bust, a journeyman backup, and 2nd and 3rd stringers. He apparently is not better than a healthy Griffen as a rookie, or Alex Smith, who both managed more success with Washington.

People throw trash away. People want to throw Cousins away. Redskins fans and Vikings fans... both equally as misguided.

I didn't love his contract either, but as we see more and more QBs get paid, I let that go. We all have to.

I think he's better than slightly above average, but either way, we can definitely win with Cousins. I don't understand all the hate he gets.

You don't get why people don't like a guy who demands top tier money but plays like a bottom tier QB when the money is on the line?

That isn't all of it, there is the low ceiling we have with him at QB and the lack of hope he provides that we will win the big one with him at the helm, but that is probably the biggest thing.

Last Edit: May 14, 2020 14:52:21 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 14:51:42 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on May 14, 2020 14:51:42 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 14:31:26 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

May 14, 2020 14:13:43 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

30 games is a large sample size, and it isn't like it is getting better. 2-10 as a Viking falls in line with the rest of his career.

Smith was 6-3 when he got hurt for the Skins. Took over a team that was 7-9 with Cousins, and went won twice as many games as he lost.

I think the Skins knew Cousins better than anyone and wanted him around. They just didn't want him around so bad that were willing to pay him like he was the greatest player in the history of the NFL. They wanted to pay him like the 3rd tier QB he is, something I would be okay with as long as it didn't mean we passed on guys like Jackson in the draft because we already have Cousins. He should be a bridge QB to finding your young, cheap QB on a rookie deal.

You was talking %. His is low because of less games. Let's take a baseball analogy. If you have 30 plate appearances the strikeouts will lower your batting average more than 100 appearances because you had more chances. Having more chances gives you more chances at home runs and driving in runs helping your average. Same with a test some would rather have a 20 question test not me give me the 100 question one. I can miss more and still get a good grade widen my margin for error. That is why his winning % is lower than those with way more games and opportunities.

We are talking 30 compared to 90, not 30 compared to 500 at bats.

I get what you are saying, but to get to where Rodgers is he would have to go 30-24 against winning teams over the next 10 years. That aint happening.

He is a 1/3 of the way through a typical starters career number of starts. Are you really telling me a 1/3 of a career is not a big enough sample size?

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 15:11:27 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 15:11:27 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 14:51:42 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 14, 2020 14:31:26 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

You was talking %. His is low because of less games. Let's take a baseball analogy. If you have 30 plate appearances the strikeouts will lower your batting average more than 100 appearances because you had more chances. Having more chances gives you more chances at home runs and driving in runs helping your average. Same with a test some would rather have a 20 question test not me give me the 100 question one. I can miss more and still get a good grade widen my margin for error. That is why his winning % is lower than those with way more games and opportunities.

We are talking 30 compared to 90, not 30 compared to 500 at bats.

I get what you are saying, but to get to where Rodgers is he would have to go 30-24 against winning teams over the next 10 years. That aint happening.

He is a 1/3 of the way through a typical starters career number of starts. Are you really telling me a 1/3 of a career is not a big enough sample size?

I said 100 plate appearances not 500? It's not just about Rodgers. You have Rivers,Eli and others. If he won the Bowl who would care. Eli sucks went 32-77 his % Cousins could catch that and they got Eli as a hall of famer and Rivers. Why do you like and watch the Vikings may I ask? Is it because you live close or others around you do? I live far away and never been to Minnesota still I love the Vikings why? Because I always loved the organization what it stands for (blue collar) have to work for everything we get and the players who represent this team past, present, and future Vikings. If God told me we would never have a chance then why watch I would already know the results. I watch because I believe we can get it done and it will be glorious.Will it be this year or the next who knows but I believe it will happen when you least expect it to. That is how Vikings work when slept on we surprise. I don't mean this in no bad way so take no offense. If you however believe we have zero chance with Kirk why watch? Come back when you think we have more than a zero chance. Does that mean I guarantee or are likely to do it every year No but I never say impossible. We try our best every year I feel and that's all I ask and will be behind whoever we trot out on that field!

Last Edit: May 14, 2020 15:41:25 GMT -6 by Deleted

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 15:42:07 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on May 14, 2020 15:42:07 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 14:31:26 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

May 14, 2020 14:13:43 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

30 games is a large sample size, and it isn't like it is getting better. 2-10 as a Viking falls in line with the rest of his career.

Smith was 6-3 when he got hurt for the Skins. Took over a team that was 7-9 with Cousins, and went won twice as many games as he lost.

I think the Skins knew Cousins better than anyone and wanted him around. They just didn't want him around so bad that were willing to pay him like he was the greatest player in the history of the NFL. They wanted to pay him like the 3rd tier QB he is, something I would be okay with as long as it didn't mean we passed on guys like Jackson in the draft because we already have Cousins. He should be a bridge QB to finding your young, cheap QB on a rookie deal.

You was talking %. His is low because of less games. Let's take a baseball analogy. If you have 30 plate appearances the strikeouts will lower your batting average more than 100 appearances because you had more chances. Having more chances gives you more chances at home runs and driving in runs helping your average. Same with a test some would rather have a 20 question test not me give me the 100 question one. I can miss more and still get a good grade widen my margin for error. That is why his winning % is lower than those with way more games and opportunities.

Well if you only look at one side of a coin it's all you'll see. What I'm saying is there are two sides and you're only using one side.

Smaller sample size can be beneficial as well. If you know 18 of 20 questions and you only get 18 of 100 I would guess you'd rather have 20 questions.

A QB with a larger sample size also has more chances to fail not just to succeed. That's why it's called % and or averages and why most stats have built in minimum numbers to gauge also why you don't just spit out 1 small stat and call that proof.

I could say go look at yia and yac and it will change rankings. Then go look at att ints fumbles etc etc. Changes things. You can't just look at 1 static stat and prove anything and compare to other QBs unless you're being deceptive or trying to boost your narrative. No one outside of here is buying Kirk is a good QB let alone elite.

If you look inside the numbers that matter vs the fluff you will never convince anyone he's a top flight QB.

If you take everything out other then pure talent and place each QB in the same exact position Kirk wouldn't be in the top 10 or maybe top 15 depending on the situation.

Most in depth rankings he's middle of the pack at best.

Last Edit: May 14, 2020 15:44:23 GMT -6 by vikingpitbull

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 15:47:40 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on May 14, 2020 15:47:40 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 15:11:27 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

May 14, 2020 14:51:42 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

We are talking 30 compared to 90, not 30 compared to 500 at bats.

I get what you are saying, but to get to where Rodgers is he would have to go 30-24 against winning teams over the next 10 years. That aint happening.

He is a 1/3 of the way through a typical starters career number of starts. Are you really telling me a 1/3 of a career is not a big enough sample size?

I said 100 plate appearances not 500? It's not just about Rodgers. You have Rivers,Eli and others. If he won the Bowl who would care. Eli sucks went 32-77 his % Cousins could catch that and they got Eli as a hall of famer and Rivers. Why do you like and watch the Vikings may I ask? Is it because you live close or others around you do? I live far away and never been to Minnesota still I love the Vikings why? Because I always loved the organization what it stands for (blue collar) have to work for everything we get and the players who represent this team past, present, and future Vikings. If God told me we would never have a chance then why watch I would already know the results. I watch because I believe we can get it done and it will be glorious.Will it be this year or the next who knows but I believe it will happen when you least expect it to. That is how Vikings work when slept on we surprise. I don't mean this in no bad way so take no offense. If you however believe we have zero chance with Kirk why watch? Come back when you think we have more than a zero chance. Does that mean I guarantee or are likely to do it every year No but I never say impossible. We try our best every year I feel and that's all I ask and will be behind whoever we trot out on that field!

The difference is Eli did succeed it's not attached to an if. He's also no longer in the NFL...

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 15:59:52 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 15:59:52 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 15:42:07 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

May 14, 2020 14:31:26 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

You was talking %. His is low because of less games. Let's take a baseball analogy. If you have 30 plate appearances the strikeouts will lower your batting average more than 100 appearances because you had more chances. Having more chances gives you more chances at home runs and driving in runs helping your average. Same with a test some would rather have a 20 question test not me give me the 100 question one. I can miss more and still get a good grade widen my margin for error. That is why his winning % is lower than those with way more games and opportunities.

Well if you only look at one side of a coin it's all you'll see. What I'm saying is there are two sides and you're only using one side.

Smaller sample size can be beneficial as well. If you know 18 of 20 questions and you only get 18 of 100 I would guess you'd rather have 20 questions.

A QB with a larger sample size also has more chances to fail not just to succeed. That's why it's called % and or averages and why most stats have built in minimum numbers to gauge also why you don't just spit out 1 small stat and call that proof.

I could say go look at yia and yac and it will change rankings. Then go look at att ints fumbles etc etc. Changes things. You can't just look at 1 static stat and prove anything and compare to other QBs unless you're being deceptive or trying to boost your narrative. No one outside of here is buying Kirk is a good QB let alone elite.

If you look inside the numbers that matter vs the fluff you will never convince anyone he's a top flight QB.

If you take everything out other then pure talent and place each QB in the same exact position Kirk wouldn't be in the top 10 or maybe top 15 depending on the situation.

Most in depth rankings he's middle of the pack at best.

Sigh! We never agree on anything Pit. You never call me names or disrespect me so it's all good. I like you even though we have yet to ever agree. You a hard nut to crack boy but I see potential in you. One day we will see something the same maybe! You know damn well what I am getting at on the questions such a smart ass LMAO! Remember we all Viking family but you best believe if Cousins prove you wrong I will be in that ass like a wedgie LOL Believe that!

Last Edit: May 14, 2020 16:05:24 GMT -6 by Deleted

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 16:16:51 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on May 14, 2020 16:16:51 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 15:59:52 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

May 14, 2020 15:42:07 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

Well if you only look at one side of a coin it's all you'll see. What I'm saying is there are two sides and you're only using one side.

Smaller sample size can be beneficial as well. If you know 18 of 20 questions and you only get 18 of 100 I would guess you'd rather have 20 questions.

A QB with a larger sample size also has more chances to fail not just to succeed. That's why it's called % and or averages and why most stats have built in minimum numbers to gauge also why you don't just spit out 1 small stat and call that proof.

I could say go look at yia and yac and it will change rankings. Then go look at att ints fumbles etc etc. Changes things. You can't just look at 1 static stat and prove anything and compare to other QBs unless you're being deceptive or trying to boost your narrative. No one outside of here is buying Kirk is a good QB let alone elite.

If you look inside the numbers that matter vs the fluff you will never convince anyone he's a top flight QB.

If you take everything out other then pure talent and place each QB in the same exact position Kirk wouldn't be in the top 10 or maybe top 15 depending on the situation.

Most in depth rankings he's middle of the pack at best.

Sigh! We never agree on anything Pit. You never call me names or disrespect me so it's all good. I like you even though we have yet to ever agree. You a hard nut to crack boy but I see potential in you. One day we will see something the same maybe! You know damn well what I am getting at on the questions such a smart ass LMAO! Remember we all Viking family but you best believe if Cousins prove you wrong I will be in that ass like a wedgie LOL Believe that!

And vice versa. I'll still have a better average then his supporters.

Just so you know I didn't disagree with you I just showed you both sides of the coin.

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Are we being totally fair to Cousins! May 14, 2020 16:31:50 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 16:31:50 GMT -6

May 14, 2020 16:16:51 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

May 14, 2020 15:59:52 GMT -6 @purpledrankreturns said:

Sigh! We never agree on anything Pit. You never call me names or disrespect me so it's all good. I like you even though we have yet to ever agree. You a hard nut to crack boy but I see potential in you. One day we will see something the same maybe! You know damn well what I am getting at on the questions such a smart ass LMAO! Remember we all Viking family but you best believe if Cousins prove you wrong I will be in that ass like a wedgie LOL Believe that!

And vice versa. I'll still have a better average then his supporters.

Just so you know I didn't disagree with you I just showed you both sides of the coin.

See look at you! You can be nice! Just got your first like from me LOL! Their are two sides to every coin absolutely, I can respect that.