DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 29, 2020 13:34:27 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 13:34:27 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 13:22:56 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 29, 2020 11:30:33 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

I think he means Rob B. has shown himself to be pretty gifted at it over the years.

Has he though? Generally yes I would've agreed in years past. But to sign Cousins he didn't really do anything special, he just backloaded deals and restructured when he could to kick the can down the road. Well the tax man is here to collect this year.

We've always had cap space because we've never paid a QB like we did with Cousins and on top of that we've never had a bunch of younger quality players on their second and third contracts.

I guess I'm saying yes over the years I agree we were always in good shape with the cap but now I'm questioning how great of a job that was. It's not hard to manage the cap when it's easy to do so. The real question is how does he manage it now with a multitude of FA's and negative cap space? Because we aren't the only team paying a QB a bunch of money. Cousins isn't the highest paid QB anymore, yet we are worse off than anyone else.

I think cap allocation is just cyclical. But I think the Vikings have made that cycle as easy and fortunate as possible over his time in charge of it.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 29, 2020 18:21:53 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Jan 29, 2020 18:21:53 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 7:48:20 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

Does anyone else find it strange that the Vikes are in cap trouble with a team that has done virtually nothing on the field?

Virtually nothing = 10-6 with a playoff win? I'm not satisfied with that result, but finishing as a top 8 team means "nothing"?

I would consider 'virtually nothing' to be the Jaguars right now. They are coming off a 6-10 season and are projected to have about -$40K cap room in 2020. Now that's nothing!

Jan 29, 2020 13:22:56 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Cousins isn't the highest paid QB anymore, yet we are worse off than anyone else.

How do you know this? Have you researched the other teams that are paying QBs more money than Cousins? If "worse off" you mean just by cap room remaining, I don't think that's a great metric.

How have the Falcons done since giving Matt Ryan $30M a year? The Rams are entering a stretch where they'll give Jared Goff $33.5M a year and he just had a middling season. Roethlisberger is getting $34M and he might not be the same guy or even play in 2020. While it may not be more money, the aforementioned Jags are giving Foles $22M a year to be their backup after getting outclassed by a 6th round rookie!

Cousins' deal limits the Vikings to a point, I won't argue that, but why do these other QBs get to go scot-free with nobody ever complaining about their large contracts?

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 29, 2020 19:51:39 GMT -6 via mobile Longship likes this

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Post by specialk28 on Jan 29, 2020 19:51:39 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 18:21:53 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Jan 29, 2020 7:48:20 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

Does anyone else find it strange that the Vikes are in cap trouble with a team that has done virtually nothing on the field?

Virtually nothing = 10-6 with a playoff win? I'm not satisfied with that result, but finishing as a top 8 team means "nothing"?

I would consider 'virtually nothing' to be the Jaguars right now. They are coming off a 6-10 season and are projected to have about -$40K cap room in 2020. Now that's nothing!

Jan 29, 2020 13:22:56 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Cousins isn't the highest paid QB anymore, yet we are worse off than anyone else.

How do you know this? Have you researched the other teams that are paying QBs more money than Cousins? If "worse off" you mean just by cap room remaining, I don't think that's a great metric.

How have the Falcons done since giving Matt Ryan $30M a year? The Rams are entering a stretch where they'll give Jared Goff $33.5M a year and he just had a middling season. Roethlisberger is getting $34M and he might not be the same guy or even play in 2020. While it may not be more money, the aforementioned Jags are giving Foles $22M a year to be their backup after getting outclassed by a 6th round rookie!

Cousins' deal limits the Vikings to a point, I won't argue that, but why do these other QBs get to go scot-free with nobody ever complaining about their large contracts?

You realize all 4 guys you just listed have played in the super bowl? 2 won Super Bowls. Might be why they don’t get the criticism?

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 29, 2020 20:07:49 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Jan 29, 2020 20:07:49 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 19:51:39 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 29, 2020 18:21:53 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Virtually nothing = 10-6 with a playoff win? I'm not satisfied with that result, but finishing as a top 8 team means "nothing"?

I would consider 'virtually nothing' to be the Jaguars right now. They are coming off a 6-10 season and are projected to have about -$40K cap room in 2020. Now that's nothing!

How do you know this? Have you researched the other teams that are paying QBs more money than Cousins? If "worse off" you mean just by cap room remaining, I don't think that's a great metric.

How have the Falcons done since giving Matt Ryan $30M a year? The Rams are entering a stretch where they'll give Jared Goff $33.5M a year and he just had a middling season. Roethlisberger is getting $34M and he might not be the same guy or even play in 2020. While it may not be more money, the aforementioned Jags are giving Foles $22M a year to be their backup after getting outclassed by a 6th round rookie!

Cousins' deal limits the Vikings to a point, I won't argue that, but why do these other QBs get to go scot-free with nobody ever complaining about their large contracts?

You realize all 4 guys you just listed have played in the super bowl? 2 won Super Bowls. Might be why they don’t get the criticism?

They have, but they currently aren't putting their team in a position to win one in the future. Big Ben hasn't won one in 11 years, Ryan blew a 28-3 lead in his, Foles isn't even good enough to start, and Goff is basically Cousins.

Will Cousins be worth overpaying again the instant he makes a SB, even if he never sniffs one again? What if the team carries him there like the 49ers are carrying Garoppolo?

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 6:56:32 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by slapnut19 on Jan 30, 2020 6:56:32 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 13:22:56 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 29, 2020 11:30:33 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

I think he means Rob B. has shown himself to be pretty gifted at it over the years.

Has he though? Generally yes I would've agreed in years past. But to sign Cousins he didn't really do anything special, he just backloaded deals and restructured when he could to kick the can down the road. Well the tax man is here to collect this year.

We've always had cap space because we've never paid a QB like we did with Cousins and on top of that we've never had a bunch of younger quality players on their second and third contracts.

I guess I'm saying yes over the years I agree we were always in good shape with the cap but now I'm questioning how great of a job that was. It's not hard to manage the cap when it's easy to do so. The real question is how does he manage it now with a multitude of FA's and negative cap space? Because we aren't the only team paying a QB a bunch of money. Cousins isn't the highest paid QB anymore, yet we are worse off than anyone else.

can you elaborate on all these deals we backloaded and restructures you are talking about?

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 8:05:37 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 30, 2020 8:05:37 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 20:07:49 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Jan 29, 2020 19:51:39 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

You realize all 4 guys you just listed have played in the super bowl? 2 won Super Bowls. Might be why they don’t get the criticism?

They have, but they currently aren't putting their team in a position to win one in the future. Big Ben hasn't won one in 11 years, Ryan blew a 28-3 lead in his, Foles isn't even good enough to start, and Goff is basically Cousins.

Will Cousins be worth overpaying again the instant he makes a SB, even if he never sniffs one again? What if the team carries him there like the 49ers are carrying Garoppolo?

Not something we have to worry about.

As for those 4 guys, Foles is taking a ton of heat in Jacksonville. Big Ben won 2 SBs and has been to 5 conference championships in his career which compares pretty favorably to Cousins' best of 1 divisional round loss. Ryan has been more successful in the post season as well. Not because he was carried by his run game like Cousins and Jimmy G, but because he threw the ball well.

Goff will get hammered eventually for that contract if he continues to be Cousins-lite, if that makes you feel better.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 9:27:22 GMT -6

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Post by huthuthike on Jan 30, 2020 9:27:22 GMT -6

Jan 29, 2020 18:21:53 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Jan 29, 2020 7:48:20 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

Does anyone else find it strange that the Vikes are in cap trouble with a team that has done virtually nothing on the field?

Virtually nothing = 10-6 with a playoff win? I'm not satisfied with that result, but finishing as a top 8 team means "nothing"?

I would consider 'virtually nothing' to be the Jaguars right now. They are coming off a 6-10 season and are projected to have about -$40K cap room in 2020. Now that's nothing!

Jan 29, 2020 13:22:56 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Cousins isn't the highest paid QB anymore, yet we are worse off than anyone else.

How do you know this? Have you researched the other teams that are paying QBs more money than Cousins? If "worse off" you mean just by cap room remaining, I don't think that's a great metric.

How have the Falcons done since giving Matt Ryan $30M a year? The Rams are entering a stretch where they'll give Jared Goff $33.5M a year and he just had a middling season. Roethlisberger is getting $34M and he might not be the same guy or even play in 2020. While it may not be more money, the aforementioned Jags are giving Foles $22M a year to be their backup after getting outclassed by a 6th round rookie!

Cousins' deal limits the Vikings to a point, I won't argue that, but why do these other QBs get to go scot-free with nobody ever complaining about their large contracts?

Yes virtually nothing. Being a vikes fan since two of the last superbowl losses. Being a legit threat to win a championship more than once in over a decade would be a nice change of pace. THis past season was not one of those threat years. Hell, this team lost to KC with a backup, the Bears with a backup, and basically struggles to win one or two games a season to a team with a winning record. So I call it basically doing nothing. Now throw in this GM/Coaches history of making the playoffs one season and sucking the next, doesn't exactly me as a fan think they are on the verge of something special. There is definitely something missing here.

As to your comments on the other QB's salaries, at least they are getting paid for actually achieving something and are their salaries all fully guaranteed? (I honesty don't know). Throw in the fact that the Vikes gave the contract to Cousins for a guy that is knowingly immobile with a weak oline and has a proven track record of struggling in the spot light seems silly to me. I ask the question: How is this team better since the Cousins deal? Would the team be farther ahead spreading the money out across the team and drafting a QB to develop. Nobody knows, but paying that QB that kind of money with his history seems kind of dumb. There was enough of a sample size to see what he is and he really hasn't changed.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 10:19:53 GMT -6

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Post by specialk28 on Jan 30, 2020 10:19:53 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 6:56:32 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Jan 29, 2020 13:22:56 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Has he though? Generally yes I would've agreed in years past. But to sign Cousins he didn't really do anything special, he just backloaded deals and restructured when he could to kick the can down the road. Well the tax man is here to collect this year.

We've always had cap space because we've never paid a QB like we did with Cousins and on top of that we've never had a bunch of younger quality players on their second and third contracts.

I guess I'm saying yes over the years I agree we were always in good shape with the cap but now I'm questioning how great of a job that was. It's not hard to manage the cap when it's easy to do so. The real question is how does he manage it now with a multitude of FA's and negative cap space? Because we aren't the only team paying a QB a bunch of money. Cousins isn't the highest paid QB anymore, yet we are worse off than anyone else.

can you elaborate on all these deals we backloaded and restructures you are talking about?

Sure

Barr was $5M last year and he's at $13M this year
Joseph was at 7M in 2017 and he's at $13M this year
Rudoph was extended last year and they pushed all of his money into the future. $3.5M last year and $9M this year
Griffen they extended and restructure to push his cap number to $8M last year and $14M this year

Do I need a few more?

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 10:48:30 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by slapnut19 on Jan 30, 2020 10:48:30 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 10:19:53 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 30, 2020 6:56:32 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

can you elaborate on all these deals we backloaded and restructures you are talking about?

Sure

Barr was $5M last year and he's at $13M this year
Joseph was at 7M in 2017 and he's at $13M this year
Rudoph was extended last year and they pushed all of his money into the future. $3.5M last year and $9M this year
Griffen they extended and restructure to push his cap number to $8M last year and $14M this year

Do I need a few more?

aren't most contracts structured that way? What i mean is aren't long term deals usually strutured where they increase year by year. Of course year one is lower due to most players getting a sizeable chunk as a signing bonus.

Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 10:57:03 GMT -6 by slapnut19

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 15:08:11 GMT -6

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Post by specialk28 on Jan 30, 2020 15:08:11 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 10:48:30 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Jan 30, 2020 10:19:53 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Sure

Barr was $5M last year and he's at $13M this year
Joseph was at 7M in 2017 and he's at $13M this year
Rudoph was extended last year and they pushed all of his money into the future. $3.5M last year and $9M this year
Griffen they extended and restructure to push his cap number to $8M last year and $14M this year

Do I need a few more?

aren't most contracts structured that way? What i mean is aren't long term deals usually strutured where they increase year by year. Of course year one is lower due to most players getting a sizeable chunk as a signing bonus.

Yeah maybe to some extent but those cap hits are doubled or even tripled. This isn't like Cousins deal that was like 27, 29, 31. They were pushing money out to have a couple of all in years. But now they have to pay up and we don't have the space anymore.

My point was more it's easy to manage the cap and look good when you don't have a top QB salary to deal with among a group of talented players. We've all been impressed by Brez and his ability to manage the cap but now when the going gets tough he doesn't look so great.

I will also say it's still early. Maybe they can pull off some moves, I don't know. But I don't see any way we don't lose a bunch of quality players this year without restructuring Cousins where we again push his salary out to later year for a lighter cap hit this year. Plus we're stuck with Cousins for more years.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 16:44:23 GMT -6 specialk28 likes this

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Post by slapnut19 on Jan 30, 2020 16:44:23 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 15:08:11 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 30, 2020 10:48:30 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

aren't most contracts structured that way? What i mean is aren't long term deals usually strutured where they increase year by year. Of course year one is lower due to most players getting a sizeable chunk as a signing bonus.

Yeah maybe to some extent but those cap hits are doubled or even tripled. This isn't like Cousins deal that was like 27, 29, 31. They were pushing money out to have a couple of all in years. But now they have to pay up and we don't have the space anymore.

My point was more it's easy to manage the cap and look good when you don't have a top QB salary to deal with among a group of talented players. We've all been impressed by Brez and his ability to manage the cap but now when the going gets tough he doesn't look so great.

I will also say it's still early. Maybe they can pull off some moves, I don't know. But I don't see any way we don't lose a bunch of quality players this year without restructuring Cousins where we again push his salary out to later year for a lighter cap hit this year. Plus we're stuck with Cousins for more years.

it will be interesting to see how they approach things. even if they leave cousins contract the way it is they can free up some money pretty easily releasing the likes of joseph, rhodes and griffen. we aren't looking too bad for 2021 and 2022. right not we are at 177 and 138 mil for those two years, which would be considerably less after cutting some of the expensive vets. the question is will we have a qb making 30 mil again next offseason or not.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 16:48:45 GMT -6

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Post by slapnut19 on Jan 30, 2020 16:48:45 GMT -6

the issue we have now is #1 qb making 28 mil, #2 young players like hunter diggs barr and kendricks early into their big extensions, and #3 guys like joseph, griffen and reiff who are making big money but not producing anywhere near their cap numbers. #1 and #2 we can live with but #3 is what has our cap the way it is

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 16:49:32 GMT -6

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Post by specialk28 on Jan 30, 2020 16:49:32 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 16:44:23 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

Jan 30, 2020 15:08:11 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Yeah maybe to some extent but those cap hits are doubled or even tripled. This isn't like Cousins deal that was like 27, 29, 31. They were pushing money out to have a couple of all in years. But now they have to pay up and we don't have the space anymore.

My point was more it's easy to manage the cap and look good when you don't have a top QB salary to deal with among a group of talented players. We've all been impressed by Brez and his ability to manage the cap but now when the going gets tough he doesn't look so great.

I will also say it's still early. Maybe they can pull off some moves, I don't know. But I don't see any way we don't lose a bunch of quality players this year without restructuring Cousins where we again push his salary out to later year for a lighter cap hit this year. Plus we're stuck with Cousins for more years.

it will be interesting to see how they approach things. even if they leave cousins contract the way it is they can free up some money pretty easily releasing the likes of joseph, rhodes and griffen. we aren't looking too bad for 2021 and 2022. right not we are at 177 and 138 mil for those two years, which would be considerably less after cutting some of the expensive vets. the question is will we have a qb making 30 mil again next offseason or not.

The problem to me is people are a little too cavalier with just saying cut Rhodes, Griffen and Joseph. You also need to take into account there's a good chance we also lose Waynes and Harris.

That's 5 starters on D. I don't care what you think about those guys but that's half of our starting defense. Not to mention losing all of those guys doesn't exactly give us $100M in cap space. Maybe 1 or 2 medium FA deals and then draft picks and depth roster guys.

Our roster situation is not great right now. So yes I would agree, I'm very very interested in how they approach the offseason.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 18:37:46 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Jan 30, 2020 18:37:46 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 9:27:22 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

As to your comments on the other QB's salaries, at least they are getting paid for actually achieving something and are their salaries all fully guaranteed? (I honesty don't know).

Good question, let see:

Foles: $50M guaranteed / $88M total
Roethlisberger: $37.5M / $68M total (2 year extension)
Goff: $110M / $134M
Ryan: $100M / $150M

I'm just not a fan of paying players for short spans of excellent play. Foles had 2 playoff games where he played out of his mind, and now gets $50M guaranteed and can't even handle a starting job. Goff had a strong 2018 season, but a short track record before then. I understand giving Roethlisberger a high salary, and Ryan somewhat, but they're still preventing their teams from spending more because of their past accomplishments.

Jan 30, 2020 9:27:22 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

How is this team better since the Cousins deal? Would the team be farther ahead spreading the money out across the team and drafting a QB to develop.

Unfortunately, the team didn't get better after the Cousins deal. He does deserve a share of the blame, but I'd also look to other underachieving players. The defense has also been handsomely paid and hasn't lived up to their pay grade, just look at happened to Rhodes once he signed his deal! I also think Barr's deal was a big misstep. While the Cousins deal was an overpay, I would have liked more money spent on the O-line rather than wrapping up Zimmer's favorite defenders.

Jan 30, 2020 16:49:32 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

The problem to me is people are a little too cavalier with just saying cut Rhodes, Griffen and Joseph. You also need to take into account there's a good chance we also lose Waynes and Harris.

Sure, I can buy that. I would expect 3 of those 5 guys to leave... Methinks they're going to do all they can to get Harris back.

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DN: Vikings Offseason Plan v1.0 Jan 30, 2020 18:40:39 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on Jan 30, 2020 18:40:39 GMT -6

Jan 30, 2020 16:49:32 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 30, 2020 16:44:23 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

it will be interesting to see how they approach things. even if they leave cousins contract the way it is they can free up some money pretty easily releasing the likes of joseph, rhodes and griffen. we aren't looking too bad for 2021 and 2022. right not we are at 177 and 138 mil for those two years, which would be considerably less after cutting some of the expensive vets. the question is will we have a qb making 30 mil again next offseason or not.

The problem to me is people are a little too cavalier with just saying cut Rhodes, Griffen and Joseph. You also need to take into account there's a good chance we also lose Waynes and Harris.

That's 5 starters on D. I don't care what you think about those guys but that's half of our starting defense. Not to mention losing all of those guys doesn't exactly give us $100M in cap space. Maybe 1 or 2 medium FA deals and then draft picks and depth roster guys.

Our roster situation is not great right now. So yes I would agree, I'm very very interested in how they approach the offseason.

Then you take it a step or two further. You have to replace those players and actually improve. Just replacing on the cheap does nothing for the team moving forward. That's why I have to pause when people talk about restructuring many of the higher paid vets that aren't producing. They say they suck for their current contacts yet still want them at a reduced price. That makes absolutely no sense to me. You either cut and replace with better talent or you are doing nothing but spinning wheels.