Why don't you like Rick?

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 11:47:11 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 11:47:11 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:44:54 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 20, 2019 11:41:23 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

I'm only stuck because you've so far refused to see the purpose of that question. In fact, as this post indicates, you still haven't grasped it. The reason why I ask you about Top 10 is precisely because it is NOT narrow. You keep arguing GM work is not just drafting, that's true. But then you also boil down your opposition to Spielman in the MOST narrow terms. (Super Bowl wins) The whole point behind top 10 is to force you to appreciate the context more. It'd be nice if you made an effort to embrace that rather than constantly dismissing it.

My hesitation on condemning Spielman comes precisely because the context of the league means the criticisms I have of him (and there are more than a handful) are weighed against his peers. When I do that, it makes it harder to be so polarized or black/white on the subject. As you are. As I've said repeatedly, you are welcome to the opinion that Spielman needs to go. Even in the context of his peers it can be a valid stance. However, when you so aggressively deny broadening your scope, it makes your opinion rather dim in evidence or sound reasoning. You've all but admitted you don't know the context of hte league and that, in and of itself, is a pretty damning indictment of your position. The fact that you then double down and refuse to change that even moreso.

In general I don't reply or read Reignman because what he posts is mostly unintelligible spam. I clicked on your link and I see an attempt by him to be something more than that so I'll give him credit where do and reply to him in another post. But I responded to you about Norv, so when you accuse me of not responding when I actually have....that's your mistake not mine. To accuse me of being thin-skinned is, again, you projecting.

I don't appreciate having to repeat things to other posters in a discussion. Especially the same poster, multiple times as you constantly demand. If you're not able to keep up with what has been said within a few replies, maybe a discussion board isn't the place for you. At the very least, stop claiming people haven't done something if you don't have the wherewithal to keep up. It just makes you look bad.

What research or facts have you presented?

About infinity more than your zero and you wouldn't remember if I had anyway by all indications.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 11:51:22 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 11:51:22 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:47:11 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Dec 20, 2019 11:44:54 GMT -6 BosViking said:

What research or facts have you presented?

About infinity more than your zero and you wouldn't remember if I had anyway by all indications.

So none?

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 11:54:14 GMT -6 Reignman and Funkytown like this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 11:54:14 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 1:16:26 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Dec 9, 2019 22:25:08 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

This is a fallacious argument. Even if there aren't 10 better GM's in the league, it doesn't mean there isn't anyone out there who wouldn't be an improvement. You're assuming our only options are to hire someone who is already a GM. What about someone who is already on the staff, like assistant GM George Paton? I always hear his name being floated around as a GM candidate. He's been with the Vikings for 12 years ... but maybe that's a strike against him? He's been marinating in the culture of mediocrity for too long perhaps. Rob Brzezinski has been a salary cap wizard so maybe he has other talents? I don't follow the front office of other teams enough to even begin naming candidates, but I would hope the Wilfs do.

I'm not someone who believes you should hold onto mediocrity just because the change could end up being worse. Yeah that's always a risk, but the point is to win championships, and if you can't do that with what you currently have, you have to roll those dice. Sure going 9-7 and 10-6 every year is a whole lot better than whatever the Jets or Bengals have going on, but we're not winning more championships than any of those failed franchises, so what's the point? Is the goal to just not to be the Lions, or is the goal to win a championship? If it's the former, then I guess we stick with the triangle of mediocrity, Spielman, Zimmer, and Cousins.

My expectations are a little higher, which is why I come off as a bit of a negative fan to some of the more positive types who are seemingly content with the culture of mediocrity because they're afraid things could get worse. That's nothing more than stockholm syndrome IMO. From my POV, there's plenty to complain about, so I will.

The Wilfs need to bring in more execs, coaches, and players who have a championship mindset, and maybe try to change the culture from within. Like Zimmer, Spielman is a good enough GM if you just want to be kept entertained, but he's not good enough to get us over the championship hump I'm afraid. He's never even come close to providing any evidence for that. Zimmer is starting to show all the same signs of not being someone who is capable of delivering a championship. As someone around here once said, "Zimmer, he'll keep you in the hunt, but he's never going to kill anything".

If more of your posts sounded like this, you'd contribute a lot more to discussions.

You're wrong to conclude that is a fallacious argument because there is an incorrect assumption. I'm not assuming we have to hire from someone who is a GM already, I'm concluding from what I observe around the league that their efforts to find better GMs than Rick have failed. A lot. And for some franchises, they've had multiple much worse failures than Rick within his tenure. That doesn't mean we couldn't improve on Rick, there is evidence that there are such people out there because Rick is somewhere in the back half of the top 10 IMO. Meaning there are at least 5-8 better out there. It's simply a percentages, from what you see around the league it's pretty easy to conclude the replacing your GM is fraught with risk. Most teams fail miserably at it and set their franchise back decades.

Now, as you say, that doesn't mean you don't roll the dice. But you should go into that dice roll acknowledging the risks. Someone who isn't willing to look at the context of the league and see Spielman for what he is (harder to replace with an improvement than most), it's an unfair stance to take.

As for the last part, I'm of the opinion that the biggest growing complaint I have of Spielman is one specific part of his job - coaching choices. He seems too tied to Zimmer now. Zimmer looked like the right choice, but I'm also leaning towards the idea that he peaked. I'd like to see what Spielman's talents as a talent evaluator and acquire-er (not a word I think?) would do with a better coach choice. But I admit....that is also fraught with risk.

So I'm willing to give one more year and then if they haven't delivered, time to roll the dice. Even with all the positives a change is still warranted.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 11:55:25 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on Dec 20, 2019 11:55:25 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:51:22 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 20, 2019 11:47:11 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

About infinity more than your zero and you wouldn't remember if I had anyway by all indications.

So none?

BINGO!!!!

Asks all others to prove their stance then they do and ignore and flip the subject matter. He just trolls and states how much more intelligence he has on his side. Same broken record in every thread with him.

Last Edit: Dec 20, 2019 11:57:25 GMT -6 by vikingpitbull

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 11:55:30 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 11:55:30 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:51:22 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 20, 2019 11:47:11 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

About infinity more than your zero and you wouldn't remember if I had anyway by all indications.

So none?

None would be your contributions. I'll just give two examples - by pointing out how absurd your Jerry Jones example was (you didn't research that one did ya?) and by making a list of teams better than Spielman I contributed infinity x 2 more than your zero.

You're projecting again. You keep stomping your feet and making demands, but you're the first to avoid the same requests.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 11:59:19 GMT -6 via Tapatalk 6 likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 11:59:19 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:28:19 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Dec 19, 2019 18:32:59 GMT -6 BosViking said:

My view: anyone who has Spielgod as a top 10 GM is clearly a worshipper

There is no rational argument for ranking him that highly. None. He has proven nothing as a NFL GM. One (miracle) playoff win in 8 seasons. That's pretty damning.

In general, I would consider those who make excuses for his failures (without limits) to be blind worshippers.

I realize I come off biased, otherwise I wouldn't have this avatar and sign, duh... But does that mean that I actually am? Hmmmmmm... to blind worshippers who can't look past the avatar and sig since it is against their untouchable hero..... of course... but actually?

The supposedly "rational" posters amongst us (lol) cant focus on my argument. They're constantly deflecting. Deflecting towards other teams, other GMs, me, anything and everything seemingly.... to avoid discussing the topic at hand.... Spielgod himself and his tenure.

God, worshiper, and now, HERO, lol ... what?

As far as bringing other teams and GMs into the argument, that is absolutely fair game. Don't we need some sort of baseline?

You are making this such a black and white discussion, and there is a whooooole lotta gray when building a football team.

I'm not saying ignore it. Consider it, actually. However, it should just be a consideration... not your main argument. The main argument should be his own body of work as a GM. That should by far be the focus and scope of the debate. Not what other GMs, on different teams, are doing. How do you even measure that if a GM has a completely different philosophy than Rick? It's apples to oranges in that case. Not to mention different ownership, and overall different dynamic.

Too many times, and too often, the Spielgod supporters stray away from his own body of work towards........ whatever else. Stop it.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 12:02:44 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 12:02:44 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:55:30 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Dec 20, 2019 11:51:22 GMT -6 BosViking said:

So none?

None would be your contributions. I'll just give two examples - by pointing out how absurd your Jerry Jones example was (you didn't research that one did ya?) and by making a list of teams better than Spielman I contributed infinity x 2 more than your zero.

You're projecting again. You keep stomping your feet and making demands, but you're the first to avoid the same requests.

Thanks for the follow up.

No legit research or facts presented. Just your opinions.

And here you were knocking me and others for not providing research lmao

vikingpitbull is right here.... you're just pounding your chest ATTEMPTING to proclaim your intellectual superiority. Snap out of it.... you can do better.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 12:06:49 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 12:06:49 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 11:54:14 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Dec 10, 2019 1:16:26 GMT -6 Reignman said:

This is a fallacious argument. Even if there aren't 10 better GM's in the league, it doesn't mean there isn't anyone out there who wouldn't be an improvement. You're assuming our only options are to hire someone who is already a GM. What about someone who is already on the staff, like assistant GM George Paton? I always hear his name being floated around as a GM candidate. He's been with the Vikings for 12 years ... but maybe that's a strike against him? He's been marinating in the culture of mediocrity for too long perhaps. Rob Brzezinski has been a salary cap wizard so maybe he has other talents? I don't follow the front office of other teams enough to even begin naming candidates, but I would hope the Wilfs do.

I'm not someone who believes you should hold onto mediocrity just because the change could end up being worse. Yeah that's always a risk, but the point is to win championships, and if you can't do that with what you currently have, you have to roll those dice. Sure going 9-7 and 10-6 every year is a whole lot better than whatever the Jets or Bengals have going on, but we're not winning more championships than any of those failed franchises, so what's the point? Is the goal to just not to be the Lions, or is the goal to win a championship? If it's the former, then I guess we stick with the triangle of mediocrity, Spielman, Zimmer, and Cousins.

My expectations are a little higher, which is why I come off as a bit of a negative fan to some of the more positive types who are seemingly content with the culture of mediocrity because they're afraid things could get worse. That's nothing more than stockholm syndrome IMO. From my POV, there's plenty to complain about, so I will.

The Wilfs need to bring in more execs, coaches, and players who have a championship mindset, and maybe try to change the culture from within. Like Zimmer, Spielman is a good enough GM if you just want to be kept entertained, but he's not good enough to get us over the championship hump I'm afraid. He's never even come close to providing any evidence for that. Zimmer is starting to show all the same signs of not being someone who is capable of delivering a championship. As someone around here once said, "Zimmer, he'll keep you in the hunt, but he's never going to kill anything".

If more of your posts sounded like this, you'd contribute a lot more to discussions.

You're wrong to conclude that is a fallacious argument because there is an incorrect assumption. I'm not assuming we have to hire from someone who is a GM already, I'm concluding from what I observe around the league that their efforts to find better GMs than Rick have failed. A lot. And for some franchises, they've had multiple much worse failures than Rick within his tenure. That doesn't mean we couldn't improve on Rick, there is evidence that there are such people out there because Rick is somewhere in the back half of the top 10 IMO. Meaning there are at least 5-8 better out there. It's simply a percentages, from what you see around the league it's pretty easy to conclude the replacing your GM is fraught with risk. Most teams fail miserably at it and set their franchise back decades.

Now, as you say, that doesn't mean you don't roll the dice. But you should go into that dice roll acknowledging the risks. Someone who isn't willing to look at the context of the league and see Spielman for what he is (harder to replace with an improvement than most), it's an unfair stance to take.

As for the last part, I'm of the opinion that the biggest growing complaint I have of Spielman is one specific part of his job - coaching choices. He seems too tied to Zimmer now. Zimmer looked like the right choice, but I'm also leaning towards the idea that he peaked. I'd like to see what Spielman's talents as a talent evaluator and acquire-er (not a word I think?) would do with a better coach choice. But I admit....that is also fraught with risk.

So I'm willing to give one more year and then if they haven't delivered, time to roll the dice. Even with all the positives a change is still warranted.

So let me understand your viewpoint better....

You think he made a good hire with Zimmer....but wait it turned out to be a bad hire.... ok.... fine..... I guess....

But now that he has peaked and we wont win with Zimmer, you think it is in the Vikings best interest to allow Spielgod to hire a new coach after Zimmer? (though you do point out it is risky and that you dont expect him to be given that chance)

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 12:25:27 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 12:25:27 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 12:06:49 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 20, 2019 11:54:14 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

If more of your posts sounded like this, you'd contribute a lot more to discussions.

You're wrong to conclude that is a fallacious argument because there is an incorrect assumption. I'm not assuming we have to hire from someone who is a GM already, I'm concluding from what I observe around the league that their efforts to find better GMs than Rick have failed. A lot. And for some franchises, they've had multiple much worse failures than Rick within his tenure. That doesn't mean we couldn't improve on Rick, there is evidence that there are such people out there because Rick is somewhere in the back half of the top 10 IMO. Meaning there are at least 5-8 better out there. It's simply a percentages, from what you see around the league it's pretty easy to conclude the replacing your GM is fraught with risk. Most teams fail miserably at it and set their franchise back decades.

Now, as you say, that doesn't mean you don't roll the dice. But you should go into that dice roll acknowledging the risks. Someone who isn't willing to look at the context of the league and see Spielman for what he is (harder to replace with an improvement than most), it's an unfair stance to take.

As for the last part, I'm of the opinion that the biggest growing complaint I have of Spielman is one specific part of his job - coaching choices. He seems too tied to Zimmer now. Zimmer looked like the right choice, but I'm also leaning towards the idea that he peaked. I'd like to see what Spielman's talents as a talent evaluator and acquire-er (not a word I think?) would do with a better coach choice. But I admit....that is also fraught with risk.

So I'm willing to give one more year and then if they haven't delivered, time to roll the dice. Even with all the positives a change is still warranted.

So let me understand your viewpoint better....

You think he made a good hire with Zimmer....but wait it turned out to be a bad hire.... ok.... fine..... I guess....

But now that he has peaked and we wont win with Zimmer, you think it is in the Vikings best interest to allow Spielgod to hire a new coach after Zimmer? (though you do point out it is risky and that you dont expect him to be given that chance)

I want to point out, I respond again in full knowledge you'll later forget that I responded and ask me to repeat myself. Yet...here I am. Try and do better to keep a line of conversation going.

Yes, I think the Zimmer hire was good. It certainly paid dividends improving the franchise. However, growth beyond that initial improvement stagnated short of the goal. I'm not saying Spielman should get to hire a replacement, I think perhaps it's time for a total change.

But I can see the argument in pairing Spielman's talent acquisition prowess with a different coach. I just wouldn't agree with that right now.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 12:35:36 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 12:35:36 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 12:25:27 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Dec 20, 2019 12:06:49 GMT -6 BosViking said:

So let me understand your viewpoint better....

You think he made a good hire with Zimmer....but wait it turned out to be a bad hire.... ok.... fine..... I guess....

But now that he has peaked and we wont win with Zimmer, you think it is in the Vikings best interest to allow Spielgod to hire a new coach after Zimmer? (though you do point out it is risky and that you dont expect him to be given that chance)

I want to point out, I respond again in full knowledge you'll later forget that I responded and ask me to repeat myself. Yet...here I am. Try and do better to keep a line of conversation going.

Yes, I think the Zimmer hire was good. It certainly paid dividends improving the franchise. However, growth beyond that initial improvement stagnated short of the goal. I'm not saying Spielman should get to hire a replacement, I think perhaps it's time for a total change.

But I can see the argument in pairing Spielman's talent acquisition prowess with a different coach. I just wouldn't agree with that right now.

Man you're all over the fkn map.

First it is a good hire but then "fell short of the goal"... what in the actual f*ck?

How dare we ask you to repeat yourself....... us peasants will keep that in mind.....

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 13:35:08 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 13:35:08 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 12:35:36 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 20, 2019 12:25:27 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

I want to point out, I respond again in full knowledge you'll later forget that I responded and ask me to repeat myself. Yet...here I am. Try and do better to keep a line of conversation going.

Yes, I think the Zimmer hire was good. It certainly paid dividends improving the franchise. However, growth beyond that initial improvement stagnated short of the goal. I'm not saying Spielman should get to hire a replacement, I think perhaps it's time for a total change.

But I can see the argument in pairing Spielman's talent acquisition prowess with a different coach. I just wouldn't agree with that right now.

Man you're all over the fkn map.

First it is a good hire but then "fell short of the goal"... what in the actual f*ck?

How dare we ask you to repeat yourself....... us peasants will keep that in mind.....

Well, yes, how dare you accuse me of not saying something and then demanding I repeat it. Search button works on your browser, but it wouldn't be necessary if you were keeping up.

Sometimes hires change and the course of history bears out a different outcome then the one you initially believe it will. I thought Matt Kalil was the right choice, turned out differently. I thought Andrew Luck was a sure-fire Super Bowl winner. Turned out differently. That's not being "all over the map", that's just being honest with reality.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 14:05:44 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on Dec 20, 2019 14:05:44 GMT -6

People do understand that the Wilfs actually signed off on Zimmer. I don't think they trusted Rick enough to let him make the call by himself.

m.startribune.com/hartman-mark-wilf-says-energy-honesty-got-zimmer-hired-as-vikings-coach/241031501/

Also it's perfect logic to think a person was a good hire until they have proven to solidify they are no longer.

NoresemanSam Veteran Minimum Posts: 7,768 Likes: 4,755 Fan Since: Kapp was king	Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 14:43:34 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by NoresemanSam on Dec 20, 2019 14:43:34 GMT -6 Dec 20, 2019 6:54:49 GMT -6 BosViking said: Dec 20, 2019 0:59:10 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said: @theleviathan : step back brother.... Don't get sucked into this stupid any further. You deserve better. GFY
	"There is no one most valuable Viking. There are 40 most valuable Vikings" - Joe Kapp upon refusing to accept the team MVP award

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 14:52:17 GMT -6

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Post by Funkytown on Dec 20, 2019 14:52:17 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 14:43:34 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Dec 20, 2019 6:54:49 GMT -6 BosViking said:

GFY

Hey now, you're the one who started this mess, Mr. Loaded Question! *spank*

Why don't YOU like Rick? (roflmao)

I want answers, and I want them now, Mister. *paddle*

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 20, 2019 15:36:07 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by NoresemanSam on Dec 20, 2019 15:36:07 GMT -6

Dec 20, 2019 14:52:17 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Dec 20, 2019 14:43:34 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Hey now, you're the one who started this mess, Mr. Loaded Question! *spank*

Why don't YOU like Rick? (roflmao)

I want answers, and I want them now, Mister. *paddle*

Well I thought you "bosses" wanted activity! Like fish in a barrel..... (or "stuff" in a fan) *ishhitthefan*

If you have your guy hack into the poll, you'll find that I voted "I like Rick!" And, I really do! I've followed the draft for almost 50 years, and Rick is by far the best at drafting talent that I've seen. He also oversees a very effective cap management team and is able to land those few FAs that we target. My all time favorite Rick move was signing Kirk to spare us from more years of, at best, mediocre QB play and, at worst, more exploding knees. I'll be double happy when Rick signs him to a huge long term extension next Spring. I even liked his move up to draft your all time favorite Viking! *goteddy*