Some positivity

vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:16:26 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

Dec 4, 2019 17:18:48 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Your really saying the guy runs worse and scores less is better because he gets more attempts? Yea, I'm pretty sure that would qualify as the 'L' here guy, not vice versa.

No I think we're all saying Dalvin Cook runs better than Aaron Jones. This is pretty simple.

2019 Yards After Contact per Rush = Dalvin Cook: 2.5
Aaron Jones: 1.6

When you combine that with both of their YPC averages (4.7 to 4.1) it sure looks like Jones actually gets better blocking but Dalvin STILL gets more YPC anyway because he's that much better at getting yardage on his own.

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Jones led Cook in yards per carry straight on for three years, still leads in career ypc, so now that Dalvin finally eclipsed his season ypc three weeks ago, hes a better runner all of a sudden? I think not.

If Cook was a better runner, his career ypc or yards after contact would be higher then Jones, but they arent. So what is there to possibly say? Holding a higher season ypc average for a whole three weeks doesnt erase the fact that Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

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pinfante79
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:28:09 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by pinfante79 on Dec 4, 2019 19:28:09 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:16:26 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

No I think we're all saying Dalvin Cook runs better than Aaron Jones. This is pretty simple.

2019 Yards After Contact per Rush = Dalvin Cook: 2.5
Aaron Jones: 1.6

When you combine that with both of their YPC averages (4.7 to 4.1) it sure looks like Jones actually gets better blocking but Dalvin STILL gets more YPC anyway because he's that much better at getting yardage on his own.

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Jones led Cook in yards per carry straight on for three years, still leads in career ypc, so now that Dalvin finally eclipsed his season ypc three weeks ago, hes a better runner all of a sudden? I think not.

If Cook was a better runner, his career ypc or yards after contact would be higher then Jones, but they arent. So what is there to possibly say? Holding a higher season ypc average for a whole three weeks doesnt erase the fact that Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

This dude is a moron

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OdinHammer
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:29:34 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by OdinHammer on Dec 4, 2019 19:29:34 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

And again, Jones has a better career YPC.

You don't care about comparing their career numbers because Dalvin was injured in '17 and '18. The same way that you don't care about the Packers stinking it up in '17 because Aaron Rodgers was injured. How about we compare the one season both players have played in every game? Sounds good to me.

vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:37:54 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 19:37:54 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:16:57 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

As to the passing TDs, Kirk Cousins has thrown 53 TD passes as a Viking-49 of them to WRs and TEs, 4 to backs. 2 by Cook, one each by Ham and Abdullah...the Vikings don't utilize their backs as pass catchers in the red zone.
Over the same period, Rodgers had 47 tds, 9 (8 THIS YEAR!) to backs, 5 to Williams 4 to Jones, and 6 of them came in the red zone and another from 21 and yet another from 24...the only real outlier is the 67 yarder for Jones in KC.
If that doesn't reflect a difference in offensive philosophy I don't know what does.

Are our WRs and TEs better then GBs? Or are they just benefiting from an offensive philosophy that gives them more scoring opportunitys? I think you know the answer, of course our WRs and TEs are better, it's not even close, and that's why they score/produce more.

If you are going to explain away GBs RBs superior scoring production as being a product of offensive philosophy, you would have to do the same in reverse in regards to our WRs/TEs superior scoring production. But quite obviously, you arent going to do that.

Simply put, if our RBs were as good as theirs in the receiving/scoring game, they would produce just as well or better, but they dont. If GBs WRs/TEs were as good as ours in the receiving/scoring game, they would produce just as well or better, bit they dont. You cant make excuses for one side and not apply those same excuses for the other.

Furthermore, GBs RBs outproduce ours at rushing TDs, as well as receiving. I will also point out, we run nearly the exact same O as GB, so this difference in philosophy really isnt there.

The difference is talent. Not philosophy. That goes for our WRs/TEs vs theirs, as well as their RBs vs ours.

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Raptorman
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:39:03 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 4, 2019 19:39:03 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:16:26 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

No I think we're all saying Dalvin Cook runs better than Aaron Jones. This is pretty simple.

2019 Yards After Contact per Rush = Dalvin Cook: 2.5
Aaron Jones: 1.6

When you combine that with both of their YPC averages (4.7 to 4.1) it sure looks like Jones actually gets better blocking but Dalvin STILL gets more YPC anyway because he's that much better at getting yardage on his own.

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Jones led Cook in yards per carry straight on for three years, still leads in career ypc, so now that Dalvin finally eclipsed his season ypc three weeks ago, hes a better runner all of a sudden? I think not.

If Cook was a better runner, his career ypc or yards after contact would be higher then Jones, but they arent. So what is there to possibly say? Holding a higher season ypc average for a whole three weeks doesnt erase the fact that Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

Yup. I'll agree with you as soon as you agree that Cousins has been just as good QB since 2016 as Rodgers. After all, the stats say so.

pfref.com/tiny/81KxL

Last Edit: Dec 4, 2019 19:40:22 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:39:55 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 19:39:55 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:39:03 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Jones led Cook in yards per carry straight on for three years, still leads in career ypc, so now that Dalvin finally eclipsed his season ypc three weeks ago, hes a better runner all of a sudden? I think not.

If Cook was a better runner, his career ypc or yards after contact would be higher then Jones, but they arent. So what is there to possibly say? Holding a higher season ypc average for a whole three weeks doesnt erase the fact that Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

Yup. I'll agree with you as soon as you agree that Cousins has been just as good QB since 2013 as Rodgers. After all, the stats say so.

pfref.com/tiny/NdX4y

I have that heard that argument.

vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:40:20 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 19:40:20 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:28:09 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Jones led Cook in yards per carry straight on for three years, still leads in career ypc, so now that Dalvin finally eclipsed his season ypc three weeks ago, hes a better runner all of a sudden? I think not.

If Cook was a better runner, his career ypc or yards after contact would be higher then Jones, but they arent. So what is there to possibly say? Holding a higher season ypc average for a whole three weeks doesnt erase the fact that Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

This dude is a moron

Says the guy who keeps saying that the player with less YPC, less rushing TDs, less receiving TDs, is better then the guy who does better at all of those things.

You are essentially saying that producing worse at everything makes you a better player. I should probably take your inst as a compliment, considering you must live in topsy turvy world where left is right, down is up, the sky is the ground etc.

"Hey Hey! Cheer up!

Our Sich Riflemen came out, to a bloody fray

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OdinHammer
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:41:38 GMT -6

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Post by OdinHammer on Dec 4, 2019 19:41:38 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

2018 Yards After Contact per Rush = Dalvin Cook: 2.0
Aaron Jones: 1.9

vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:44:13 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 19:44:13 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:29:34 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

And again, Jones has a better career YPC.

You don't care about comparing their career numbers because Dalvin was injured in '17 and '18. The same way that you don't care about the Packers stinking it up in '17 because Aaron Rodgers was injured. How about we compare the one season both players have played in every game? Sounds good to me.

Dalvin being injured would only affect volumetric statistical arguments. That isnt my position.

On a PER SNAP basis, Jones has higher YPC, and is more likely to score a TD, in both that rushing and receiving game. That's just what it is.

But ok, let's compare Jones and Dalvins 2019. Jones STILL has had a better season, with more rushing TDs, more receiving TDs, and just a .6 of a yard lower ypc, which was higher then Cooks for most of the year.

"Hey Hey! Cheer up!

Our Sich Riflemen came out, to a bloody fray

To free our fellow Ukrainians from the shackles of Moscow"

vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:51:00 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 19:51:00 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:39:03 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Jones led Cook in yards per carry straight on for three years, still leads in career ypc, so now that Dalvin finally eclipsed his season ypc three weeks ago, hes a better runner all of a sudden? I think not.

If Cook was a better runner, his career ypc or yards after contact would be higher then Jones, but they arent. So what is there to possibly say? Holding a higher season ypc average for a whole three weeks doesnt erase the fact that Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

Yup. I'll agree with you as soon as you agree that Cousins has been just as good QB since 2016 as Rodgers. After all, the stats say so.

pfref.com/tiny/81KxL

No they dont lol. Did you even read what you posted? Cousins has a few more passing TDs, but significantly more INTs, a lesser rating, and less rushing TDs. Clearly Rodgers had been better in that time span.

Also, even if Cousins numbers *were better through that time span, which they arent, Rodgers is arguably the GOAT and a first ballot HOFer, so it would be jumping the gun to put Cousins over him in spite of this.

Cook on the other hand, doesnt have a legacy that exceeds Jones in any sense, and his on field production pales in comparison to Jones in every sense (Especially career wise). YPC, rushing TDs, receiving TDs, etc.

You cant be better then someone if they do everything better then you.

Last Edit: Dec 4, 2019 20:03:08 GMT -6 by vikecycle

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Our Sich Riflemen came out, to a bloody fray

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OdinHammer
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 19:54:28 GMT -6 Funkytown, diehardtwinsfan, and 1 more like this

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Post by OdinHammer on Dec 4, 2019 19:54:28 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:44:13 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

On a PER SNAP basis, Jones has higher YPC, and is more likely to score a TD, in both that rushing and receiving game. That's just what it is.

But ok, let's compare Jones and Dalvins 2019. Jones STILL has had a better season, with more rushing TDs, more receiving TDs, and just a .6 of a yard lower ypc, which was higher then Cooks for most of the year.

First of all Dalvin has more rushing TDs than Jones this year (12 to 11). Secondly you're getting a little too hung up on TDs IMO. Some 2019 numbers to chew on=

First Downs Rushing: Dalvin Cook: 56
Aaron Jones: 35

First Downs Receiving: Dalvin Cook: 24
Aaron Jones: 14

Catch Percentage: Dalvin Cook: 82.8%
Aaron Jones: 75%

YAC per Reception: Dalvin Cook: 11.6
Aaron Jones: 8.7

And of course Yards after Contact per rush favors Dalvin Cook by a mile. On a per snap basis Dalvin Cook is a more explosive runner and is a better receiver out of the backfield. Aaron Jones has a slightly better TD percentage on running and receiving. With how flukey TDs can get, this isn't a great argument IMO.

vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 20:02:08 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 20:02:08 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:54:28 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:44:13 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

On a PER SNAP basis, Jones has higher YPC, and is more likely to score a TD, in both that rushing and receiving game. That's just what it is.

But ok, let's compare Jones and Dalvins 2019. Jones STILL has had a better season, with more rushing TDs, more receiving TDs, and just a .6 of a yard lower ypc, which was higher then Cooks for most of the year.

First of all Dalvin has more rushing TDs than Jones this year (12 to 11). Secondly you're getting a little too hung up on TDs IMO. Some 2019 numbers to chew on=

First Downs Rushing: Dalvin Cook: 56
Aaron Jones: 35

First Downs Receiving: Dalvin Cook: 24
Aaron Jones: 14

Catch Percentage: Dalvin Cook: 82.8%
Aaron Jones: 75%

YAC per Reception: Dalvin Cook: 11.6
Aaron Jones: 8.7

And of course Yards after Contact per rush favors Dalvin Cook by a mile. On a per snap basis Dalvin Cook is a more explosive runner and is a better receiver out of the backfield. Aaron Jones has a slightly better TD percentage on running and receiving. With how flukey TDs can get, this isn't a great argument IMO.

You use 'first down' production to try and make it look like Cook actually does things better then Jones lol. That's pretty weak dude, there's 4 downs, who cares who's better at 1 specific down? Use total production.

On a per snap basis, Cook right now has been .6 ypc better then Jones right now, yes, but Jones has been significantly better as a receiver, as evidenced by his superior receiving production. Sure, Cook may make more yards per reception, but Jones is so much better at actually getting receptions, that he is still comfortably more productive in the receiving game then Cook.

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Our Sich Riflemen came out, to a bloody fray

To free our fellow Ukrainians from the shackles of Moscow"

VikingsBoss
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 20:04:37 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown and OdinHammer like this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Dec 4, 2019 20:04:37 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:16:26 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

No I think we're all saying Dalvin Cook runs better than Aaron Jones. This is pretty simple.

2019 Yards After Contact per Rush = Dalvin Cook: 2.5
Aaron Jones: 1.6

When you combine that with both of their YPC averages (4.7 to 4.1) it sure looks like Jones actually gets better blocking but Dalvin STILL gets more YPC anyway because he's that much better at getting yardage on his own.

And again, Jones has a better career YPC. Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

Cooks season YPC was lower for most of this year until Jones last two games, so I find it pretty likely the same is probably true of his yards after contact.

Cook verifiably has been a lesser runner, receiver, and scorer from the moment they came into the league.

HE HAS MORE YARDS! HE HAS MORE CATCHES! HE HAS MORE RECEIVING YARDS! HE AVERAGES MORE YARDS THEY EACH TOUCH THE BALL! AND HE'S PLAYED FEWER GAMES! More, more, more, more, and less.

And your whole three weeks/yards per carry argument is more bullsh*t. Aaron Jones ran for 39 yards on 13 carries Week 1, Cook ran for 111 on 22. Which average is higher? Week 2, Jones is now at 155 yards on 36 carries (4.3 YPC) but Cook is now at 41 for 265 (6.46)...I could keep going, but the numbers generally get worse for Jones, who has games of 19 (1.9), 21 (1.62) and 18 (1.64) yards this year. Cook's season low ypc was 2.4. Yeah, math whiz, even if Jones did at one point edge past Cook it certainly wasn't for the Lion's share of the season, and if I had more patience to go game-by-game we'd probably find it to be a figment of your imagination.

Dalvin Cook is a workhorse. A guy who can touch the ball 25 times, 30 times a game and keep coming at you. Aaron Jones is a back who's effective tends to drop the more he is used. It's one reason his numbers and Williams are so much more comparable than Cook and Mattison's.

Last Edit: Dec 4, 2019 20:10:14 GMT -6 by VikingsBoss

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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 20:06:42 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown likes this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Dec 4, 2019 20:06:42 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:44:13 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:29:34 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

You don't care about comparing their career numbers because Dalvin was injured in '17 and '18. The same way that you don't care about the Packers stinking it up in '17 because Aaron Rodgers was injured. How about we compare the one season both players have played in every game? Sounds good to me.

Dalvin being injured would only affect volumetric statistical arguments. That isnt my position.

On a PER SNAP basis, Jones has higher YPC, and is more likely to score a TD, in both that rushing and receiving game. That's just what it is.

But ok, let's compare Jones and Dalvins 2019. Jones STILL has had a better season, with more rushing TDs, more receiving TDs, and just a .6 of a yard lower ypc, which was higher then Cooks for most of the year.

Jones has 11 rushing TDs, Cook has 12. Not even in Wisconsin is 11 more than 12.

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vikecycle
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Some positivity Dec 4, 2019 20:07:12 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikecycle on Dec 4, 2019 20:07:12 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 19:41:38 GMT -6 OdinHammer said:

Dec 4, 2019 19:26:35 GMT -6 vikecycle said:

Now that you bring up yards after contact, I also point out, Jones has a higher career yards after contact then Cook.

2018 Yards After Contact per Rush = Dalvin Cook: 2.0
Aaron Jones: 1.9

Can you please source the yards after contact? I'm not doubting what you posted here, just want to look it over myself, also would appreciate the career yards after contact.

I'm also not sure how much yards after contact does for your argument, especially in the face of Jones generally superior YPC. I'd be willing to bet Jamal Lewis has a higher yards after contact then Barry Sanders, but he certainly wasnt a better runner, as yards after contact is always going to be deflated by scat/speed backs even if they are the best runner in the league.

"Hey Hey! Cheer up!

Our Sich Riflemen came out, to a bloody fray

To free our fellow Ukrainians from the shackles of Moscow"