The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem

Danchat
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 15:16:57 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Sept 25, 2023 15:16:57 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 14:52:01 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Sept 25, 2023 13:59:11 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if we straight-up see Wonnum or Jones get cut just to get somebody else in. Whitley will probably get some snaps since he was called up Week 1 instead of Vilain, but I wouldn't be shocked if both get some chances.

I never understood the Lowry signing and I made my opinions known when it happened. The Packers benched him for good reason and he's not good at providing a pass rush or stopping the run. And what happened to Tonga? He was supposed to be Tomlinson's replacement and get an increase in snaps, not be a healthy scratch Week 3.

At least they are good in run defense when 3 DL are on the field, but this is the worst pass rushing DL in the league.

Addison in the 1st was such a luxury pick. Bryan Bresee was sitting right there.

I wonder if Tonga doesn't fit Flores scheme. Not sure why he wouldn't since Flo wants his DTs to eat double teams so his ILBs and Safeties can get into the backfield. Kind of a headscratcher unless his play wasn't up to what he wanted ala Jajuan Williams.

I get the logic behind the Addison pick, Osborn isn't a #2 WR and is probably gone in free agency next year, but there were several very good defensive prospects on the board... and then they don't go DL with either of the 3rd or 4th round picks.

Bresee's injury history scares me but it looks like he's already panning out so far. 7 pressures and a half sack, though some questionable run defense. I would like to have him, though I think the true blunder was only signing Lowry in FA when there were other options out there.

Last Edit: Sept 25, 2023 15:17:09 GMT -6 by Danchat

FSUVike
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 15:18:34 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by FSUVike on Sept 25, 2023 15:18:34 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 15:16:57 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Sept 25, 2023 14:52:01 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Addison in the 1st was such a luxury pick. Bryan Bresee was sitting right there.

I wonder if Tonga doesn't fit Flores scheme. Not sure why he wouldn't since Flo wants his DTs to eat double teams so his ILBs and Safeties can get into the backfield. Kind of a headscratcher unless his play wasn't up to what he wanted ala Jajuan Williams.

I get the logic behind the Addison pick, Osborn isn't a #2 WR and is probably gone in free agency next year, but there were several very good defensive prospects on the board... and then they don't go DL with either of the 3rd or 4th round picks.

Bresee's injury history scares me but it looks like he's already panning out so far. 7 pressures and a half sack, though some questionable run defense. I would like to have him, though I think the true blunder was only signing Lowry in FA when there were other options out there.

Lot of mistakes on the Lines so far. Will you admit that Oliver isn't one of them?

Uncle
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 15:20:03 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 2 more like this

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Post by Uncle on Sept 25, 2023 15:20:03 GMT -6

Peeking ahead to the 2024 offseason, and in terms of "decent" DT's that would be UFA (at least at this point, before anyone could get extended or tagged), you have the following:

- Chris Jones; KC gave him the 1-yr "Danielle Hunter" deal after his hold-in, but he's going to command a "reset the market" type of contract
- Christian Wilkins; couldn't come to terms on a long-term deal during Camp so 'Phins extended Zach Sieler; Wilkins was drafted during the Flores regime in Miami and played extremely well under Flores; he'll command a top DT contract
- DJ Reader; great run-stuffing NT, but he'll be 30 next season
- Grover Stewart; the solid run-stuffing DT in Indy's 4-3 front; he'll be 30 in October
- Javon Kinlaw; never put it together in SF after he was a highly coveted 1st Rd pick in 2020; still only rotational DL behind Hargrave
- Raekwon Davis; drafted during Flores regime as a run-stuffing DT; solid Yr 1 but fell off in '21/'22
- Sheldon Rankins; played decent for NYJ in '21/'22; will be 30 in April and on the downside of career
- Teair Tart; solid NT in Tennesse's 3-4 under Vrabel; playing under tender for Titans in '23 and they probably plan on keeping him so he shouldn't hit open market

If Jones & Wilkins hit the open market, both will command Daron Payne/Dexter Lawrence/Jeffery Simmons/Quinnen Williams-size contracts. If we're going with a rookie QB, it's not out of the realm of possibility of going after Wilkins should the 'Phins not work something out with him (and the don't tag him) and he could reunited with Flores...

...but the main point is that I don't expect the 2024 offseason to have the pass-rushing DT's we saw in the 2023 offseason with Tomlinson, Hargrave, Payne, Dre'Mont Jones, Zach Allen and David Onyemata. And because many teams are going to want a pass-rushing DT, simple supply-and-demand means that Jones & Wilkins are going to cash-in big if they are in the open market...

wivikesfan
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 16:24:50 GMT -6 via mobile Drank likes this

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Post by wivikesfan on Sept 25, 2023 16:24:50 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 15:20:03 GMT -6 Uncle said:

Peeking ahead to the 2024 offseason, and in terms of "decent" DT's that would be UFA (at least at this point, before anyone could get extended or tagged), you have the following:

- Chris Jones; KC gave him the 1-yr "Danielle Hunter" deal after his hold-in, but he's going to command a "reset the market" type of contract
- Christian Wilkins; couldn't come to terms on a long-term deal during Camp so 'Phins extended Zach Sieler; Wilkins was drafted during the Flores regime in Miami and played extremely well under Flores; he'll command a top DT contract
- DJ Reader; great run-stuffing NT, but he'll be 30 next season
- Grover Stewart; the solid run-stuffing DT in Indy's 4-3 front; he'll be 30 in October
- Javon Kinlaw; never put it together in SF after he was a highly coveted 1st Rd pick in 2020; still only rotational DL behind Hargrave
- Raekwon Davis; drafted during Flores regime as a run-stuffing DT; solid Yr 1 but fell off in '21/'22
- Sheldon Rankins; played decent for NYJ in '21/'22; will be 30 in April and on the downside of career
- Teair Tart; solid NT in Tennesse's 3-4 under Vrabel; playing under tender for Titans in '23 and they probably plan on keeping him so he shouldn't hit open market

If Jones & Wilkins hit the open market, both will command Daron Payne/Dexter Lawrence/Jeffery Simmons/Quinnen Williams-size contracts. If we're going with a rookie QB, it's not out of the realm of possibility of going after Wilkins should the 'Phins not work something out with him (and the don't tag him) and he could reunited with Flores...

...but the main point is that I don't expect the 2024 offseason to have the pass-rushing DT's we saw in the 2023 offseason with Tomlinson, Hargrave, Payne, Dre'Mont Jones, Zach Allen and David Onyemata. And because many teams are going to want a pass-rushing DT, simple supply-and-demand means that Jones & Wilkins are going to cash-in big if they are in the open market...

Good stuff. Personally I don't think we should go after any free agent who is gonna reset the market. What's the winning percentage on moves like that? I'd guess less than 20%.

First priority is to keep our own. JJ and Darrisaw won't be cheap. I'm inclined to keep Hunter too on a 2-3 year deal.

After that, it's gotta be mid-tier free agents. Like Josh Olliver. That was a solid signing.

But we are gonna have to hit on rookies for this d-line to turn around.

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,560 Likes: 31,482 Fan Since: 1998 Member is Online	The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 16:32:25 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Sept 25, 2023 16:32:25 GMT -6

Danchat
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 16:34:47 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Sept 25, 2023 16:34:47 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 15:18:34 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Sept 25, 2023 15:16:57 GMT -6 Danchat said:

I get the logic behind the Addison pick, Osborn isn't a #2 WR and is probably gone in free agency next year, but there were several very good defensive prospects on the board... and then they don't go DL with either of the 3rd or 4th round picks.

Bresee's injury history scares me but it looks like he's already panning out so far. 7 pressures and a half sack, though some questionable run defense. I would like to have him, though I think the true blunder was only signing Lowry in FA when there were other options out there.

Lot of mistakes on the Lines so far. Will you admit that Oliver isn't one of them?

I still don't think spending $7M a year on a blocking TE who plays 25 snaps a game was a good move as we needed to spend that money elsewhere, but he is a great blocker and seems to be a better receiving TE than I thought, but still only 7-49 in the first three games. I would steadily increase his snaps and take some from Osborn, and try to establish him more as a passing threat.

Now that I think about it, he'd probably be playing more snaps if we weren't trailing most of our games...

idavike
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 16:51:31 GMT -6

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Post by idavike on Sept 25, 2023 16:51:31 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 16:34:47 GMT -6 Danchat said:

I still don't think spending $7M a year on a blocking TE who plays 25 snaps a game was a good move as we needed to spend that money elsewhere

can I add spending another $17M a year for a TE who averages 3 yards less per catch than what he did in Detroit? $24M/year could have retooled all 3 spots of the Vikings IOL. And I still am shaking my head why we got Oliver when the Vikings could have just resigned Conklin last year, especially when Conklin was a guy Kirk trusted. Yes, I know they didn't have the cap space last year, but I think that could have been worked out since he wanted to stay in Minne. This is going to be a problem.

Last Edit: Sept 25, 2023 16:53:23 GMT -6 by idavike

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,560 Likes: 31,482 Fan Since: 1998 Member is Online	The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 18:08:41 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Sept 25, 2023 18:08:41 GMT -6

wivikesfan
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 19:17:25 GMT -6 via mobile ukvikings likes this

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Post by wivikesfan on Sept 25, 2023 19:17:25 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 16:51:31 GMT -6 idavike said:

Sept 25, 2023 16:34:47 GMT -6 Danchat said:

I still don't think spending $7M a year on a blocking TE who plays 25 snaps a game was a good move as we needed to spend that money elsewhere

can I add spending another $17M a year for a TE who averages 3 yards less per catch than what he did in Detroit? $24M/year could have retooled all 3 spots of the Vikings IOL. And I still am shaking my head why we got Oliver when the Vikings could have just resigned Conklin last year, especially when Conklin was a guy Kirk trusted. Yes, I know they didn't have the cap space last year, but I think that could have been worked out since he wanted to stay in Minne. This is going to be a problem.

Honestly just guessing, but I'd guess Oliver is a significantly better blocker than Conklin?

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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 19:21:32 GMT -6 Danchat and ukvikings like this

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Post by dauntessmallhands on Sept 25, 2023 19:21:32 GMT -6

Wonnum and Jones are the problem.

It seems Tonga isn't playing because he's the backup to Phillips. To me there's an opportunity here to have both on the field at the same time. Last year it was a lot of Tonga in the A gap and Phillips in the B gap but it's been Phillips taking most of the A gap snaps this year. I think this would at least fortify the run defense and you're not losing anything by getting Lowry off the field. Plus, Tonga has shown some aptitude in the pass rush.

I was completely wrong about needing Z. Granted, Davenport has been mia but something, anything from the other edge would be nice.

dauntessmallhands Veteran Posts: 1,495 Likes: 1,419	The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 25, 2023 19:25:26 GMT -6 HunterMorrow likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by dauntessmallhands on Sept 25, 2023 19:25:26 GMT -6 Sept 25, 2023 18:08:41 GMT -6 Funkytown said: Mr. Blutarsky. Zero. Point. Zero.

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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 26, 2023 10:42:14 GMT -6 via mobile ukvikings likes this

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Post by FSUVike on Sept 26, 2023 10:42:14 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 19:21:32 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Wonnum and Jones are the problem.

It seems Tonga isn't playing because he's the backup to Phillips. To me there's an opportunity here to have both on the field at the same time. Last year it was a lot of Tonga in the A gap and Phillips in the B gap but it's been Phillips taking most of the A gap snaps this year. I think this would at least fortify the run defense and you're not losing anything by getting Lowry off the field. Plus, Tonga has shown some aptitude in the pass rush.

I was completely wrong about needing Z. Granted, Davenport has been mia but something, anything from the other edge would be nice.

Z. is washed. Doing less with better players around him in Cleveland than he did the second half of last season. The mistake so far has been hoping Davenport could stay healthy. And not having better competition already for Wonnum and Jones II.

Last Edit: Sept 26, 2023 10:44:01 GMT -6 by FSUVike

Danchat
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 26, 2023 11:37:10 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Sept 26, 2023 11:37:10 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2023 10:42:14 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Sept 25, 2023 19:21:32 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Wonnum and Jones are the problem.

It seems Tonga isn't playing because he's the backup to Phillips. To me there's an opportunity here to have both on the field at the same time. Last year it was a lot of Tonga in the A gap and Phillips in the B gap but it's been Phillips taking most of the A gap snaps this year. I think this would at least fortify the run defense and you're not losing anything by getting Lowry off the field. Plus, Tonga has shown some aptitude in the pass rush.

I was completely wrong about needing Z. Granted, Davenport has been mia but something, anything from the other edge would be nice.

Z. is washed. Doing less with better players around him in Cleveland than he did the second half of last season. The mistake so far has been hoping Davenport could stay healthy. And not having better competition already for Wonnum and Jones II.

I think it's too early to say he's washed, he dominated Week 1 and went quite the next two weeks. He is also playing about 50% of the snaps compared to 80% with the Vikings.

Will
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 26, 2023 12:37:12 GMT -6

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Post by Will on Sept 26, 2023 12:37:12 GMT -6

Not investing in DL is hurting the defense. Too many safeties and not enough talent at DL.

Wonnum and Jones are clearly struggling, and Davenport injured makes it even worse. Lowry and Tonga not helping on the interior makes the line even weaker.

Carter gets 3 pressures in his first game and becomes the 2nd best Edge threat. Even without the strength he supposedly needs to compete at the NFL level. On the interior, the Vikings need guys who can penetrate. If he can do it on run downs, can Bullard contribute?

Jor-El
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The Defensive Line is the Biggest Problem Sept 26, 2023 12:56:27 GMT -6

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Post by Jor-El on Sept 26, 2023 12:56:27 GMT -6

Sept 25, 2023 16:51:31 GMT -6 idavike said:

Sept 25, 2023 16:34:47 GMT -6 Danchat said:

I still don't think spending $7M a year on a blocking TE who plays 25 snaps a game was a good move as we needed to spend that money elsewhere

can I add spending another $17M a year for a TE who averages 3 yards less per catch than what he did in Detroit? $24M/year could have retooled all 3 spots of the Vikings IOL. And I still am shaking my head why we got Oliver when the Vikings could have just resigned Conklin last year, especially when Conklin was a guy Kirk trusted. Yes, I know they didn't have the cap space last year, but I think that could have been worked out since he wanted to stay in Minne. This is going to be a problem.

I can see that argument, because TE is still a lower priority so having 2 of them with top 20 salaries seems quite a luxury. But the real luxury is the combination of all receivers. We need the best WR in the league, those 2 TEs, AND add a first round pick for WR2...and a couple of OTs with big contracts? I used to pick on the salary allocations under Zimmer, because all of his units had to have 2 star players. It starved the other side of the ball, especially when the team could only acquire stars through first-round pick or expensive FA.

Last Edit: Sept 26, 2023 14:15:27 GMT -6 by Jor-El