KO's 2023 Offense - Improvement or more of the same?

Ok stop me if any of this starts to sound familiar, but this is some of the stuff I was saying by the 2nd preseason game in the KOC regime last year. Mostly about the 3rd quarter woes, which is absolutely a thing. Every 3rd quarter.




Well that still seems to be a thing too.

Interesting:

I'm honestly very curious about what you think KOC did that was much different than the other weeks when you have complained heavily about the play calling? 

I saw a lot of the same types of plays/concepts and calls that we have throughout the season. That includes the issues we have seen too in multiple ways like the running game and red zone. To me the biggest differences all came down to the players level of execution moreso than anything else. 

1. Kirk Cousins looked like a top 10 QB. Instead of missing open guys and holding the ball too long he seemed to anticipate better and have the timing down. He was mostly on target as well throughout the game. He also seemed to recognize the blitz multiple times and check to a play to beat it. 

2. We did not fumble the ball. 

3. We didn't drop passes that I can remember, even making some tough plays (like ripping it from the defender for a TD at half).


To me those are the key aspects that stand out as much different from the first chunk of games compared to how we played the 49ers. While I think the gameplan and play calling deserve some credit too, I didn't see much difference in that area from what I have the rest of the season. That wasn't the aspect that really changed from previous games like the above aspects. QB play, fumbles and drops have killed us this year offensively and when you remove those main issues all of a sudden the play calling appears to be much better imo. 

Lol what? How can I disagree when you haven’t given an actual example of what was different other than “a lot”.

You have specifically called me out because I pointed out the reality that Kirk, fumbles, and drops have hurt the offense in a major way. Those aspects disappeared and even you changed your tune about the offense/koc apparently in that game. Do you at least understand how what I was saying before was just pointing out the obvious? When those 3 aspects changed there was near universal praise…

Except that's a complete lie and I literally mentioned that in my first response about the game. It's right on the same page as this post lol. I also have multiple times called out not only the running game but decision to use Mattison as a focal point. You are so focused on blaming KOC at all costs you don't seem to even be reading what I have actually said. 

I strongly disagree that players fumbling is a sign of bad play calling. Why didn't we fumble last year? Why did we stop fumbling recently? He went from great to bad to great at play calling in these spans? It's largely luck, we had a bad spurt early this year after a pretty lucky season. This is part of why I am questioning what you see because if you are getting upset about play calling when it's really fumbles related then that's the obvious difference. I don't think play calling is forcing our guys to fumble randomly in a small sample of games.

It's JJ more often than not so I would say plenty. In fact there was recently a breakdown by whoskmoon and it showed some clear examples where the first option was seemingly went away from too early. It seems like the exact issue you noted KOC was calling out before is still an issue for Kirk (and has been his whole career). These are all issues that we have had no matter who the OC is because it's the QB and his mindset that's the issue. This year to add on he even has seemingly identified the right option on some 3rd downs and just missed easy throws too. It's been a mix of issues related to the QB that have hurt us in key moments was what I pointed out because it's been true. At the end of the day we are constantly having guys open, I believe the most recent chart showed we are in the top 5 in terms of least # of plays perfectly covered. That doesn't mean KOC has been perfect or hasn't left Kirk hanging with too long of routes in some occasions, it just hasn't been a main issue in the same way.

Again, I agree about the running game but it has been an issue recently too. I was asking what was so different in that game but the running game was still not very good either (especially outside a couple plays). I know it wasn't all Kirk and never said it was. I have gotten on KOC for multiple issues this season including the running game but that's different than blindly blaming his play calling for everything. As we saw in the 49ers game when you remove Kirk issues, fumbling and drops the gameplan/playcalling recieves praise from most. That's been my point all along is that it looked worse because of those issues which largely are related to the players executing not the play calling itself. That's why we are also 5th in yards per play despite the lack of scoring (offense is clearly moving the ball overall). You seem intent on ignoring context to make up nonsense and blame KOC for anything/everything. We have many fans that continuously overrate Kirk/players and saw them blame the last coach for everything too. Go figure we kept a bunch of the same players and still have 0 playoff wins despite what fans thought. KOC was voted I think 6th for coach of the year last season for an idea of what those outside this fan base think. None of that matters to me when discussing the specifics around our issues. 

That's why I have been trying to get you to respond to specific aspects/context related to the play calling and KOC. When you said we weren't running short/specific routes I simply responded with clear examples from actual games showing the reality. That's why I asked specifically about the differences from 49ers game to others. I actually do agree about Hock but part of that is also because Hockenson wasn't getting open and dropping the ball early, it was an issue for both. As I have said before KOC has been mixed to me, I believe mediocre is the term used. I just don't agree with blaming his play calling for basically everything and ignoring those bigger aspects that have held this offense back too. It's all been a factor but when you clean up the QB play/fumbles/drops you get near universal praise for similar play design/calling, even when those running issues still exist. That's telling.

The 21.9 number includes all the fumbles, drops and QB play mentioned. Both of those are above the average those teams are allowing and we lost 10 potential points due to kicking errors between these games (along with no Kirk at the end of one). If we had competent kicking that would put our average at 28 points for those two games. That's the point, when you take out those types of errors not part of play calling it's been solid, we are screwing up at basic execution. That's what I have been saying from the start. Also in terms of scoring more I would add that KOC seems to be conservative despite some initial appearances (like going for 4ths, fake punt mixed in). Both sides of the ball seem to play conservative when we get a lead, it is similar to the Zimmer years in that sense. My opinion is that this sort of philosophy and some of the game management issues are the real problem in terms of KOC as opposed to the play calling. It's why I keep trying to get into the specific issues because I think it's important to distinguish what really needs to change.



Which I said too that these are execution errors, I have been questioning the play calling aspects though. I have said a few times now the issue isn't play calling it is other aspects for KOC (like one video calling out management/procedural issues).



No I responded with specific plays because they countered specific claims. You said we weren't running short routes to beat blitzes yet we had almost entire drives of them and I listed out the plays that you could clearly see the routes in question on the game feed. I don't remember if it was you or not but someone called out the last three drives of the Tampa game and I responded with how those drives went and how each ended on bad throws from Kirk on 3rd down with players open. It isn't cherry picking when you cover the exact thing someone else is making a claim about. My point is that play calling hasn't been much of an issue at all, it's been execution and other aspects preventing us from putting points on the board. We move the ball fine and when you eliminate those errors we are scoring/in position to score often.



That he is learning and fixing issues when they come up is a good thing though. That's exactly what you want to see out of a young coach. Again we are 5th in yards per play, those issues early on play a big part in why we didn't put up more points. As covered with competent kicking the offense has been doing well the last two games without those issues. All of it without JJ too. If we had bad play calling I just don't see how that would happen.

What I have been trying to get across though is that play calling and design seem to be more of KOC's strength, at least in the passing game. We agree he is an issue in the running game and that needs to change. He has struggled in some areas in terms of this team lacking execution but it isn't a play calling issue. There are game management issues for KOC outside of his play calling as well that have been brought up and I don't disagree much there either. I just don't think the play calling itself has been nearly as big of an issue as you have made it out to be. There were others earlier in the thread asking for specifics but no one really had much in terms of play calling that game.



I just think it might be a bit of a waste to have KOC as a HC because he is supposed to help the new young QBOTF grow but then you also cut him off by not wanting to let him call the plays to do so. If there are real and specific issues with his play calling it would be different but it seems like even here you are often getting at things like execution as more of the real issue and just sort of blaming him as the coach. As I said I agree he is mediocre overall so far as a coach and has issues but as you get at there have been improvements/adjustments too. It's been a mixed bag so far.

I just haven't seen the play calling itself as big of an issue as many other aspects mentioned. You don't have top 5 yards per play and top 5 in least plays covered by the defense with bad play calling. Fumbles, drops, missed FG's and some early QB issues on 3rd downs have been a big aspect in why we are only average in terms of scoring but have been moving the ball well. I do agree that the running game which also plays into the red zone issues needs to be fixed. Hopefully they do a better job this offseason of improving that area as he clearly failed this year. The passing game has produced the 2nd most yards per game behind Miami though, I think there is something there for a young QB to work with. If we are moving forward with him as a HC I think we give him one shot at moving forward with his own QB. If it works great if not cya later KOC but either way give him a real opportunity to do it his way.