Having serious thoughts about KOC already?

FSUVike
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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 11, 2023 16:14:46 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by FSUVike on Sept 11, 2023 16:14:46 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2023 15:51:23 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

Sept 11, 2023 11:46:23 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Im not quite sure he is Zim type stubborn but I think its more hes still trying to get too cute instead of sticking with whats working. Last two drives two screen dumpoffs to Hock?? Abolish that play from the playbook. What did he think he was going to trick them? He gets too cute.

I will give him the benefit of doubt until I see him with his own QB, because I still don't think Kirk is the right guy for what he wants to run. But if that's the case we are looking at year 3 into KOC tenure if that happens next year. This is why this experiment shouldve ended already with Kirk. Only the Vikings can get cursed by actually having winning seasons that create false hope.

I agree at times he gets too cute, I do want to point something out though (and this is far from only place I have seen it). In terms of the last two drives I believe there was actually just one screen play to Hockenson. We suck at them so I get wanting to abolish it but there was another throw to Hockenson that lost yardage, it was a PA pass with other routes where the rusher came through and JJ/Oliver I believe were on that same side but Kirk chose Hockenson to dump it to. That was far from the only time we had a short dump off yesterday despite there likely being better options downfield. If you want to blame the pass rush fine, you can't use it as an excuse every single time though (and if you look at evaluations the line wasn't as bad as some suggest). I don't think we should be putting a lot of that type of stuff on KOC though because to me the plays were there to be had. It just seemed like over and over again when there were openings downfield, they just weren't being thrown to (there was one to Addison where JJ seemed visibly upset it didn't go to him on 3rd down). It was honestly happening all game and while I didn't see it as much last year, it has mostly been a constant issue for Cousins imo. Cousins also missed KJ high on 3rd for one of those drives to end and the other was a throw to Addison where JJ looked to have an opening downfield. Poor awareness and decision making from the QB position (along with missing throws) can make any OC look bad.

I agree with you on giving him a little leeway in terms of play calling until we get a different QB that maybe would work better due to issues like that. I definitely agree the Cousins experiment should have been over by now for multiple reasons lol. I am not a believer in being cursed, I just think ownership forced us in a direction that never made much sense. Either way though it will take a bit more time for me to judge KOC as negative as some given the type of issues I describe above from the QB and knowing the interior line still hasn't been fixed for the 7th or whatever season we are on.

If Cousins is back to Check Down Charlie then it is incumbent on Kevin to change his playcalling.

A Quick Passing game with motion pre-snap and a lot of slants and shallow crossers will defeat a blitz-heavy Defense unless they are pressing at the LOS successfully. Tampa went to it in the 2nd half and it worked because Flores didn't trust Evans or Blackmon to press, they were pretty much 5 yards deep at a minimum every snap of the 2nd half.

Klint Kubiak used this scheme to overcome a worse O-Line. O'Connell can't seem to be bothered to even try. And that's on him. Kirk is who he is. Kevin refuses to adjust to his weaknesses and call to his strengths. Which is what Zimmer did in the latter years of his fading Defenses.

Last Edit: Sept 11, 2023 16:32:06 GMT -6 by FSUVike

mngopher35
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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 11, 2023 16:45:52 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by mngopher35 on Sept 11, 2023 16:45:52 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2023 16:14:46 GMT -6 FSUVike said:

Sept 11, 2023 15:51:23 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

I agree at times he gets too cute, I do want to point something out though (and this is far from only place I have seen it). In terms of the last two drives I believe there was actually just one screen play to Hockenson. We suck at them so I get wanting to abolish it but there was another throw to Hockenson that lost yardage, it was a PA pass with other routes where the rusher came through and JJ/Oliver I believe were on that same side but Kirk chose Hockenson to dump it to. That was far from the only time we had a short dump off yesterday despite there likely being better options downfield. If you want to blame the pass rush fine, you can't use it as an excuse every single time though (and if you look at evaluations the line wasn't as bad as some suggest). I don't think we should be putting a lot of that type of stuff on KOC though because to me the plays were there to be had. It just seemed like over and over again when there were openings downfield, they just weren't being thrown to (there was one to Addison where JJ seemed visibly upset it didn't go to him on 3rd down). It was honestly happening all game and while I didn't see it as much last year, it has mostly been a constant issue for Cousins imo. Cousins also missed KJ high on 3rd for one of those drives to end and the other was a throw to Addison where JJ looked to have an opening downfield. Poor awareness and decision making from the QB position (along with missing throws) can make any OC look bad.

I agree with you on giving him a little leeway in terms of play calling until we get a different QB that maybe would work better due to issues like that. I definitely agree the Cousins experiment should have been over by now for multiple reasons lol. I am not a believer in being cursed, I just think ownership forced us in a direction that never made much sense. Either way though it will take a bit more time for me to judge KOC as negative as some given the type of issues I describe above from the QB and knowing the interior line still hasn't been fixed for the 7th or whatever season we are on.

If Cousins is back to Check Down Charlie then it is incumbent on Kevin to change his playcalling.

A Quick Passing game with motion pre-snap and a lot of slants and shallow crossers will defeat a blitz-heavy Defense unless they are pressing at the LOS successfully. Tampa went to it in the 2nd half and it worked because Flores didn't trust Evans or Blackmon to press, they were pretty much 5 yards deep at a minimum every snap of the 2nd half.

Klint Kubiak used this scheme to overcome a worse O-Line. O'Connell can't seem to be bothered to even try. And that's on him. Kirk is who he is. Kevin refuses to adjust to his weaknesses and call to his strengths. Which is what Zimmer did in the latter years of his fading Defenses.

I agree that KOC needed to adjust and I think he did even if it wasn’t quite the way you described. We scored a td on the first drive with a mix of short routes, a roll out, an inside or slant to hockenson I think it was etc. for a TD. Then we had a pa where Kirk chose hock behind the line, a short one to JJ for yards back and Kirk overthrowing KJ. That’s my point, even with easier options and a quicker hitting play call set Kirk still was an issue. I just can’t blame KOC for the qb making a bad choice and missing an open receiver on 2/3 plays. The same thing happened after the hock screen, short completion to KJ I think then a bad play by cousins on third.

It was far from a perfect game from KOC don’t get me wrong, he has issues too. When the QB had 3 turnovers and is making decisions/bad throws like that in key spots despite open opportunities downfield it’s not as much on the OC imo though.

Drank
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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 11, 2023 18:01:51 GMT -6 via mobile comet52 likes this

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Post by Drank on Sept 11, 2023 18:01:51 GMT -6

People get mad when we talk about the same stuff. Hard to talk about new stuff when the same stuff that hurt us for years the same issues today. Kirk , the OL . The same issues and we to dumb to solve them. It sucks to the ones who have that competitive drive I have. Inexcusable and should be a crime to be that dumb.

Some of y’all bought this continuity BS they were selling in the OL with scrubs on the interior. Some still thinking stat stuffing Kirk gon turn into a clutch killer magically at 35. We will rally just enough to get no QB like always. Sucks to be a robot and repeat the same grips every year because of clueless people in charge. Plain sick of it. All I heard was no give guys unproven chances with no competition hand outs based on status. Like I said nothing worse than when it gets real and you not contenders based on stupidity.

Last Edit: Sept 11, 2023 18:06:07 GMT -6 by Drank

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 11, 2023 18:23:42 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Drank on Sept 11, 2023 18:23:42 GMT -6

Man I don’t want to get mad a KOC I like him. Unfortunately I will be forced to soon if the play calling stay horrible. I going to cut him slack for now and focus on Kirk the OL and Kwesi. But he won’t escape if this thing goes sideways. I not allowed to be nice I wanted to be happy me this year. Impossible that was one of our easier games. That one gone bite us all year imo

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 11, 2023 21:56:43 GMT -6 skolvikes likes this

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Post by Reignman on Sept 11, 2023 21:56:43 GMT -6

I just found out Leslie Frazier is currently available if we're looking for options. *scared*

I remember a few yahoos throwing his name around last year when we were searching for a HC. bRiNg HiM BaCk fOr a sEcOnD cHaNCe!!! *suicide*

I would seriously consider replacing KOC with Brian Flores at the end of the year if this season goes south and KOC hasn't improved on offense, and Flores makes the defense respectable. I mean if there's any risk Flores wants to leave to pursue a HC gig that is. Best case scenario, we give KOC one more year and Flores comes back as DC. Then we replace Kevin with Flores next year if things still haven't improved. If nothing improves, then just fire everyone, starting with Kwesi xD. Maybe Harbaugh will no longer be upset with us. Time heals all wounds right? I mean that wasn't too embarrassing what we did to him right? *skeptic*

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

andhesloose28
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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 12, 2023 6:21:38 GMT -6 legendsofthenorth and mngopher35 like this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Sept 12, 2023 6:21:38 GMT -6

Sept 11, 2023 15:51:23 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

That was far from the only time we had a short dump off yesterday despite there likely being better options downfield. If you want to blame the pass rush fine, you can't use it as an excuse every single time though (and if you look at evaluations the line wasn't as bad as some suggest)

I didnt think Kirk played well at all honestly numbers aside. He missed a wide open guy in the endzone in his vision, when they got bailed out with the PI call. As you stated there were other plays as well. Dont get me wrong I know the IOL is not great which is why this fit with Kirk is just terrible and has been since 2018. It doesnt help he doesnt move and no one fears his legs. Its such a huge advantage to have that threat, just think of a 3rd and 2 with a mobile QB its almost guaranteed they'll get. Im honestly over the Kirk experiment and wish it ended last season. 4th and 8 checkdown is who he is.

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 12, 2023 7:38:59 GMT -6 via mobile andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on Sept 12, 2023 7:38:59 GMT -6

Sept 12, 2023 6:21:38 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Sept 11, 2023 15:51:23 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

That was far from the only time we had a short dump off yesterday despite there likely being better options downfield. If you want to blame the pass rush fine, you can't use it as an excuse every single time though (and if you look at evaluations the line wasn't as bad as some suggest)

I didnt think Kirk played well at all honestly numbers aside. He missed a wide open guy in the endzone in his vision, when they got bailed out with the PI call. As you stated there were other plays as well. Dont get me wrong I know the IOL is not great which is why this fit with Kirk is just terrible and has been since 2018. It doesnt help he doesnt move and no one fears his legs. Its such a huge advantage to have that threat, just think of a 3rd and 2 with a mobile QB its almost guaranteed they'll get. Im honestly over the Kirk experiment and wish it ended last season. 4th and 8 checkdown is who he is.

Ya I think you are talking about the TD after half and that’s another example to include with what I was saying to fsu about the game plan. A crossing route like he was saying wide open even going to same side of field and cousins just didn’t make the easy throw. There is nothing a coordinator can do in those situations and we were lucky to get the call. There were a lot of examples throughout the game of not throwing to open guys or even just missing when he did. As I said in another thread I think that is what lead to some of JJs frustration throughout the game as he was open multiple times just to watch it go incomplete elsewhere.

Ya I was over it after 2019 and we saw him be a major issue come playoff time with a great defense and elite weapons. The team fell off due to high cap hits from vets/poor drafts so it never made sense to me that we just keep extending for so much for this window of mediocrity with cousins. As you get at even in his best season like last year we still get the same type of issue on the key 4th and 8. Hopefully this is the final year and then the FO moves on, if not I think they may start to have the fan base turn on them a bit (you can already see it starting after week 1 this year).

andhesloose28
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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 12, 2023 7:42:54 GMT -6 mngopher35 likes this

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Post by andhesloose28 on Sept 12, 2023 7:42:54 GMT -6

Sept 12, 2023 7:38:59 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

As you get at even in his best season like last year we still get the same type of issue on the key 4th and 8. Hopefully this is the final year and then the FO moves on, if not I think they may start to have the fan base turn on them a bit (you can already see it starting after week 1 this year).

I think they are done for sure, unless we get to the NFC ship minimum and compete. They would've extended last offseason. Unfortunately the Vikings have been cursed for winning a few times in the past 5 years. Thankfully the Giants beat us in the playoffs or things could've been a lot worse right now.

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -6 via mobile kmillard likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 14, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -6

Moved this here to continue the discussion.

Sept 14, 2023 21:46:27 GMT -6 comet52 said:

The revealing stat is not some garbage about preseason, but that KOC is 5-6 since the Dallas ass-pounding last year (including that game).

Although I lost any hope for Zimmer in 2016 (and had to wait 5 more long years for the org to finally wake up on him), I nevertheless recall liking the way he had the team on an upward trajectory in years 1 and 2. I see nothing of that sort here.

That's an incredibly concerning stat, actually.

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 22:14:42 GMT -6 Reignman, PurpleKoolaid, and 1 more like this

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Post by comet52 on Sept 14, 2023 22:14:42 GMT -6

Sept 14, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Moved this here to continue the discussion.

Sept 14, 2023 21:46:27 GMT -6 comet52 said:

The revealing stat is not some garbage about preseason, but that KOC is 5-6 since the Dallas ass-pounding last year (including that game).

Although I lost any hope for Zimmer in 2016 (and had to wait 5 more long years for the org to finally wake up on him), I nevertheless recall liking the way he had the team on an upward trajectory in years 1 and 2. I see nothing of that sort here.

That's an incredibly concerning stat, actually.

To give him credit, they did adjust the offensive plan tonight after that atrocious 1st quarter with some qb boots, quicker reads/passes and other stuff that the x's and o's guys around here can explain better than yours truly *crazy*

. Unfortunately the Flores D, after a decent 1st quarter, then decided to do a matador act versus Philly's run game.

But anyway, a motivational HC needs to be a CEO with a good OC/DC as I said in the game thread, and I still think he should give up play calling.

The bigger picture is they are still cleaning up Rick's cap mess and trying to make do with the mostly bare cupboard Rick left them. KAM didn't do himself any favors with that first draft which seemed more like an ode to an Excel spreadsheet than intelligent talent acquisition. It isn't aging well at all.

As for KOC, you look at the schedule and this team might be 2-6 as it nears the halfway point. I'd say the Kirk to the Jets concept ought to get some serious consideration, the sooner the better. I don't need to sit here and watch another season of pretending we're contending, just burn the f*cker down. They're gonna need a big move to paper over the sh*t performance. Think of such a trade as an organizational Cris Carter-style fall guy. Everybody needs one! *thumb_up*

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

Danchat
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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 22:36:23 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Sept 14, 2023 22:36:23 GMT -6

Sept 14, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

The revealing stat is not some garbage about preseason, but that KOC is 5-6 since the Dallas ass-pounding last year (including that game).

I think this is a sign that we are a .500 team going forward, winning and losing a bunch of one score games. Until the talent or coaching drastically improves, they're going to be hovering around .500. I feel good about my 8-9 record prediction at the start of the year.

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 22:41:48 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Sept 14, 2023 22:41:48 GMT -6

Sept 14, 2023 22:36:23 GMT -6 Danchat said:

I think this is a sign that we are a .500 team going forward, winning and losing a bunch of one score games. Until the talent or coaching drastically improves, they're going to be hovering around .500. I feel good about my 8-9 record prediction at the start of the year.

Dont forget good drafting, or the serious lack of.

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 22:49:38 GMT -6 via mobile Reignman and comet52 like this

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Post by Funkytown on Sept 14, 2023 22:49:38 GMT -6

Sept 14, 2023 22:36:23 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Sept 14, 2023 21:58:56 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

The revealing stat is not some garbage about preseason, but that KOC is 5-6 since the Dallas ass-pounding last year (including that game).

I think this is a sign that we are a .500 team going forward, winning and losing a bunch of one score games. Until the talent or coaching drastically improves, they're going to be hovering around .500. I feel good about my 8-9 record prediction at the start of the year.

Yeah, truthfully, it's not even about 2022 vs. 2023. We've been the exact same team since 2020, with varying degrees of luck. Too many poor drafts by Spielman and now KAM. Ugh...

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 23:20:24 GMT -6 comet52 likes this

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Post by Reignman on Sept 14, 2023 23:20:24 GMT -6

Sept 14, 2023 22:14:42 GMT -6 comet52 said:

I'd say the Kirk to the Jets concept ought to get some serious consideration, the sooner the better. I don't need to sit here and watch another season of pretending we're contending, just burn the f*cker down.

That's the maddening part. This is absolutely what they should be doing during the bye week. Fleecing a desperate team that believes it's in a win now mode, thinking about our future. Especially when it's clear to the Vikings that Cousins isn't part of their future plans. It f*cking pisses me off just thinking about it now, because they're not even going to consider it. They gotta keep their .500 streak alive. They're so damn proud of it. And then at the end of the year when we're 7-10, they're going to let Kirk walk for nothing. Just to have those 2-3 extra regular season wins. *wallbang*

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

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Having serious thoughts about KOC already? Sept 14, 2023 23:36:14 GMT -6

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Post by Reignman on Sept 14, 2023 23:36:14 GMT -6

The offensive guru has coached 20 games now and has only managed to reach the 30 point total 4 times. Which is tied with the Packers for 13th most, but is half as many as Man Campbell has with the Lions (8), and even fewer than the Raiders (5). Baby Kubes had 7 in 17 games. We've also given up 30+ 7 times now, which is tied for the most since week 1 last year.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.