KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings

andhesloose28
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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 3, 2023 7:34:23 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Feb 3, 2023 7:34:23 GMT -6

Feb 3, 2023 5:48:41 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

I doubt JJ was the driving force

I mean he was really the only young asset on the team, besides our two tackles but even then Darrisaw didnt emerge yet. I dont mean that JJ stuck his nose out for Kirk, I meant they wanted to keep JJ happy with his stats and you knew we would compete respectfully at least with Kirk at QB. If you selling off the team you wouldnt stop at JJ, he should be shipped out too. Me personally I dont care about one single player, I want a SB and no one single player is going to give us that. What they messed up on was not getting rid of the aging guys on defense for some picks.

I disagree that Kirk has leverage on the team and ownership. It just depends who uses that leverage. You really cant have Kirk on this team in 2025 with JJs contract hitting that year unless he is taking a HUGE cut at like a 20 per year cap hit, even then its going to be tough you have Darrisaw contract coming up and even Hocks going to be decent. Kirk and his camp know this, so well see if they play hard ball if they do you ask him if he wants to waive his trade clause. I dont see Kirk putting up a stink, but im sure they want something a little more longterm at this point in his career.

The most logical thing to do is either play his contract out, or add one more year and draft his successor in 2024. If it plays out any other way than this I think its a terrible mistake. Your telling me Kevin and Kwesi arent going to get a shot to pick there guy at QB?? This franchise is doomed if thats the case I would lose a lot of interest in this team.

Last Edit: Feb 3, 2023 7:40:34 GMT -6 by andhesloose28

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 3, 2023 7:46:42 GMT -6 via mobile HunterMorrow, kmillard, and 1 more like this

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Post by Brandon on Feb 3, 2023 7:46:42 GMT -6

Feb 2, 2023 8:42:33 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

To be clear, I was against running it back. Unfortunately, doing so has put us in a worse spot I think. There's definitely talent to build around, but way too many holes and even less capital now than what we had last year to address it. We should have been adding picks in 23 and instead we have 5, and that includes a comp pick for Conklin. The season was a "success" by a metrics, but we're also drafting too late to get Kirk's replacement in large part because the class didn't pan out as expected, so... back to square 1...

On the one hand, the offense is in pretty good shape. We need to replace Kirk at some point in the near future, and short of a trade of Kirk that somehow yields and insanely high pick this season or a bounty of picks this year and next (allowing us to trade up or out to collect a bunch of 24 picks and effectively punt on the 23 season), we're probably going to now be stuck with him for at least 24 as well (and that assumes Kirk doesn't play hardball)... yuck.

and of course outside of a few players the defense needs to be gutted.

But back to the original post, it's way too soon to tell on KOC and KAM. I don't expect perfection. I do expect them to learn from their mistakes. I saw things I liked out of both of them, and I saw a few WTF things out of both of them too. It's the WTF things that need correcting. If they do that, they'll be fine.

I'm really in agreement here. This team has missed their action date so many times over the past 5-6 years.

If they had a proper forward thinking outlook Kirk, Dalvin, Theilen, Kendricks and Smith would have been traded a few years ago for picks used to reload.

Then last year when they were changing out leadership they missed again.

On the flip side, they missed their window to go all in years ago. I've heard people mention going "Full Rams" and going all in now. That time has passed. The time to do that was in 2018 after the run to the NFC Championship and when they brought in Kirk. That's when they should have just went all in and traded picks to load up. Hindsight 20/20 I don't think it would have worked anyway, but that was the time.

Now we're stuck in a place where there's no lifeline unless they hit big on pick for a player who turns out to be a gamechanger.

They've missed their window to recoup picks for players who cannot carry the team. The ownership won't let them move on from Kirk without a player in place. Even worse they probably feel vindicated in their run it back demand seeing them win 13 games.

On another board I go to there's a Vikings thread where a couple of posters believe this team has a 2-3 window. I just don't have the heart to argue it. There is no window. The Vikings are bugs splattered on the window. The roster is not good enough to compete with the best teams and we don't have assets to do a quick fix without getting abnormally lucky on picks and bargain free agents.

I have hope for the future. I think KOC and KAM have potential, but like you said it's up to them to learn from mistakes and build on the positives.

My worry is the Wilf's. Rick and Mike and the complete breakdown they had the past few years really screwed things up. The Wilf's let them run things and sat back. Then they find out they hadn't talked in months and weren't working together and now they are in hover owner mode and won't let the new guys try to build the team their way.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 3, 2023 11:44:22 GMT -6 wxman91, kmillard, and 2 more like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Feb 3, 2023 11:44:22 GMT -6

The talent isn't on the team to compete for a Super Bowl, the direction of ownership won't allow Kwesi to do what is necessary to add the talent that could get them there, and there isn't a coach in the history of the NFL who could have coached this team past SF or Philly in the playoffs, to say nothing of KC in the SB.

That is the cold hard truth of the Vikings.

Last Edit: Feb 3, 2023 11:44:56 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 3, 2023 13:05:38 GMT -6

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Post by PurpleKoolaid on Feb 3, 2023 13:05:38 GMT -6

Feb 3, 2023 11:44:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The talent isn't on the team to compete for a Super Bowl, the direction of ownership won't allow Kwesi to do what is necessary to add the talent that could get them there, and there isn't a coach in the history of the NFL who could have coached this team past SF or Philly in the playoffs, to say nothing of KC in the SB.

That is the cold hard truth of the Vikings.

Exactly. Ive said the same thing for years now (at least since 2018 when this team made the HUGE mistake of signing Kirk). That was the start of our downfall, and I dont think Rick was able to do what was necessary then, because of the Wilfs. Just like now KAM cant do anything with Kirk (unless Kirk asked for a trade), which wont happen because the Wilfs wont do a rebuild right now. I really dont like the idea of both Kw and KO leading this rebuild. Neither was good at their jobs, I'd grade them both at about a c-.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 3, 2023 23:44:16 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by holzberg on Feb 3, 2023 23:44:16 GMT -6

Feb 1, 2023 15:46:29 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Feb 1, 2023 15:23:55 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

Awesome dream bro, but unfortunately it'll only be a dream. He'll be extended, it is our fate... Just like getting slaughtered in the playoffs is.

The next starting QB will be drafted by O'Connell and Kwesi soon. It could be this upcoming draft or next but it will happen and Kirk will finally be off the roster.

Woohoo! Then we will actually have a chance to win a SB!

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 4, 2023 8:49:36 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by Ted Glover on Feb 4, 2023 8:49:36 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2023 17:40:47 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Believe it or not even though we had 13 wins we are poorly coached

Wait...what? I'm sorry, but you cannot have 13 wins, be 10-0 in one score games, while getting to the playoffs with only six players worth a hill of beans and be poorly coached.

Jan 31, 2023 17:40:47 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

we have a general manager that has done absolutely nothing to make me think he is anywhere capable of drafting the next quarterback let alone any player of use.

LOL, he's had one draft and two of his top three picks were hurt. He pulled a starting RG and the future starting LB on defense. This feels like a tremendous over reaction.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 4, 2023 13:03:28 GMT -6 vikingbill likes this

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Post by Danchat on Feb 4, 2023 13:03:28 GMT -6

Feb 4, 2023 8:49:36 GMT -6 Ted Glover said:

He pulled a starting RG and the future starting LB on defense. This feels like a tremendous over reaction.

A starting guard who set the all-time record in pressures allowed and sacks allowed in Vikings history... and also stepping-on-the-QB's-foot stat! And we hope Asamoah becomes a starting LB, but it hasn't happened yet. Obviously it is too early to grade, can't count your chickens before they hatch but you also can't count dead chickens before they hatched either.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 4, 2023 20:07:26 GMT -6 via mobile pinfante79 likes this

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Post by wxman91 on Feb 4, 2023 20:07:26 GMT -6

Feb 3, 2023 13:05:38 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Feb 3, 2023 11:44:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The talent isn't on the team to compete for a Super Bowl, the direction of ownership won't allow Kwesi to do what is necessary to add the talent that could get them there, and there isn't a coach in the history of the NFL who could have coached this team past SF or Philly in the playoffs, to say nothing of KC in the SB.

That is the cold hard truth of the Vikings.

Exactly. Ive said the same thing for years now (at least since 2018 when this team made the HUGE mistake of signing Kirk). That was the start of our downfall, and I dont think Rick was able to do what was necessary then, because of the Wilfs. Just like now KAM cant do anything with Kirk (unless Kirk asked for a trade), which wont happen because the Wilfs wont do a rebuild right now. I really dont like the idea of both Kw and KO leading this rebuild. Neither was good at their jobs, I'd grade them both at about a c-.

Signing Kirk wasn’t the problem. Missing on virtually every defensive draft pick since 2015 was. This is a multi-year rebuild.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 4, 2023 22:55:10 GMT -6

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Post by sky4it on Feb 4, 2023 22:55:10 GMT -6

Feb 1, 2023 20:08:06 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Feb 1, 2023 5:58:47 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

As for my comment about Kirk Cousins I was talking about "last we seen" as in that game versus the Giants for Justin Jefferson had 47 yd and Kirk Cousins took shot after shot and played his ass off really.

Is Jefferson getting zero targets in the 4th quarter on Jefferson or Cousins? Probably both, but Jefferson can't do squat if he doesn't get thrown the ball. Justin doesn't come down with the miracle ball in Buffalo if Kirk didn't have the balls to heave it up to him... vice versa, Jefferson can't come down with a ball Kirk didn't throw so he could check it down on 4th down.

Feb 1, 2023 5:58:47 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

If you want to go blow a first round pick on a quarterback I guess go right ahead but don't tell me at the same time you have to get rid of Kirk Cousins and it instantly insert that guy into the lineup.

Get rid === gain draft capital and cap room. That's the thing, you blow another pick on a CB and we don't get capital for moving on from Patrick Peterson, but Cousins would have some sort of market with the state of QB play in 2022. You blow a pick on QB, at least you got something for Kirk and you're probably getting a high pick and a chance to try again.

Once again, I don't see what the imminent danger is if we lose Cousins. We already can't field at SB roster around him now, do you really think we're missing out on him at age 37/38 and we'd have figured out the rest of the roster minus QB?

I see what the danger is if we move on from Cousins danchat. Why keep Jefferson when your rolling with a rookie? You waste his talents for two years and then you know what you got. Who you going to get, Anthony Richardson? Richardson is such a project it would be impossible, he throws off his back foot a lot and speads the ball all over the place, including right into DB's hands. His accuracy is abysmal. If we go third pick, what if we get Kellen Mond.

I mean might work but it probably wont, and then we will have to sign Bridgewater just so we can look like a pro team. Disagree with you pal, but I see your points on some of the rest of it. cheers.

Last Edit: Feb 4, 2023 22:57:07 GMT -6 by sky4it

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 4, 2023 23:09:04 GMT -6

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Post by sky4it on Feb 4, 2023 23:09:04 GMT -6

Feb 3, 2023 11:44:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The talent isn't on the team to compete for a Super Bowl, the direction of ownership won't allow Kwesi to do what is necessary to add the talent that could get them there, and there isn't a coach in the history of the NFL who could have coached this team past SF or Philly in the playoffs, to say nothing of KC in the SB.

That is the cold hard truth of the Vikings.

Absolutely correct o mongo. We really dont have the talent. And we can sit around an pick the scab and blame Cousins tell we fall of the chair and it really aint his fault. I dont bye the Kirko crap that he cant win a superbowl. His feet limit him but hes a damn accurate passer who throws a great ball.

The other thing we can do is sit around and watch Cousins and Jefferson lead this team to 7 to 10 wins a year and never get over the hump either. That is why I came up with a plan to revamp the defense in the other thread. Build in middle and through the linebacker in the draft, do it every year if you have too and eventually it will get done. And pickup a QB in the middle rounds whose got chance and see if you can find another young Kirk Cousins who has way better feet. I agree with the dude tho who says it isnt going to help to use first rounders on cornerbacks, thats for sure. sh*t you can drive a train through the middle of this Vikings defense, and if it doesnt dominate the draft I will be yet again a dissapointed Viking fan. You cant miss the problem. Daron Payne would be a nice start but hes going to cost a fortune. So draft draft draft.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 4, 2023 23:51:35 GMT -6 Brandon likes this

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Post by Danchat on Feb 4, 2023 23:51:35 GMT -6

Feb 4, 2023 22:55:10 GMT -6 sky4it said:

I see what the danger is if we move on from Cousins danchat. Why keep Jefferson when your rolling with a rookie? You waste his talents for two years and then you know what you got. Who you going to get, Anthony Richardson? Richardson is such a project it would be impossible, he throws off his back foot a lot and speads the ball all over the place, including right into DB's hands. His accuracy is abysmal. If we go third pick, what if we get Kellen Mond.

I mean might work but it probably wont, and then we will have to sign Bridgewater just so we can look like a pro team. Disagree with you pal, but I see your points on some of the rest of it. cheers.

I'm not advocating for trading him ASAP as I don't think we can get a QB in this draft class. Right now I'm thinking 2024, which means Kirk is back and probably gets a 1 year extension.

I also don't think he is the only thing keeping Jefferson here... if anything, he'd be great for a young QB to rely on. I'll take the risk of handing the keys to a young QB over keeping Cousins through his late 30s, but as I said that doesn't mean we trade him this offseason.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 5, 2023 9:45:28 GMT -6 via mobile mngopher35 likes this

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Post by Brandon on Feb 5, 2023 9:45:28 GMT -6

Feb 4, 2023 23:51:35 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Feb 4, 2023 22:55:10 GMT -6 sky4it said:

I see what the danger is if we move on from Cousins danchat. Why keep Jefferson when your rolling with a rookie? You waste his talents for two years and then you know what you got. Who you going to get, Anthony Richardson? Richardson is such a project it would be impossible, he throws off his back foot a lot and speads the ball all over the place, including right into DB's hands. His accuracy is abysmal. If we go third pick, what if we get Kellen Mond.

I mean might work but it probably wont, and then we will have to sign Bridgewater just so we can look like a pro team. Disagree with you pal, but I see your points on some of the rest of it. cheers.

I'm not advocating for trading him ASAP as I don't think we can get a QB in this draft class. Right now I'm thinking 2024, which means Kirk is back and probably gets a 1 year extension.

I also don't think he is the only thing keeping Jefferson here... if anything, he'd be great for a young QB to rely on. I'll take the risk of handing the keys to a young QB over keeping Cousins through his late 30s, but as I said that doesn't mean we trade him this offseason.

I don't think we'll see him traded, but I would like to. I'll openly admit he did a lot of great things this year I didn't think he could do. That said I'm tired of the Vikings getting nothing for something and want to see that trend change. If someone like San Fran panics and offers a good pick or two I want them to take the deal. They need to start getting picks for players when they are moving on rather than just letting them walk when they no longer re needed. If that means trading a guy a year early then so be it.

I do agree and don't really buy this narrative that if Kirk goes then JJ will want out. That's Kirk stans desperately flinging things to twist it that we need to keep Kirk or lose Jefferson. He's smarter than that.

Last Edit: Feb 5, 2023 9:48:23 GMT -6 by Brandon

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 5, 2023 12:05:07 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan likes this

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Post by vikingbill on Feb 5, 2023 12:05:07 GMT -6

On one hand KOC got us to 13 wins. That deserves some accolades esp with a team that is not built very well.

On the other hand I'll agree I wasn't impressed with the play calling nor play designs. There were multiple bad plays/calls this season.

-the inability to execute a screen pass was very apparent. Even though some of our olineman are pretty fast they were continually late getting to their spots. Defenses had zero trouble sniffing out these screen plays and blowing them up.

-Running game got worse as the year wore on. Very little to no misdirection in general.

-The only trick play KOC had was awful. The lateral pass to JJ. I think it worked the first time when he passed down field but in the WC game passing it back to Cousins was an abortion.

-Needing one yard seemed to be a huge problem all year. Running it behind Reed on his first ever snap as an NFL C really made me question if KOC has a clue.

I think KOC should just concentrate on being a HC and hand the play calling duties off to Phillips.

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 5, 2023 15:58:19 GMT -6

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Post by snotbubbles on Feb 5, 2023 15:58:19 GMT -6

Feb 3, 2023 11:44:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The talent isn't on the team to compete for a Super Bowl, the direction of ownership won't allow Kwesi to do what is necessary to add the talent that could get them there, and there isn't a coach in the history of the NFL who could have coached this team past SF or Philly in the playoffs, to say nothing of KC in the SB.

That is the cold hard truth of the Vikings.

That and the almost 70% of fans that are happy with the seasons outcome. Ownership just gives the people what they want.........

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KAM, KOC, and the cold hard truth of the Vikings Feb 6, 2023 7:26:21 GMT -6 via mobile vikingbill and mngopher35 like this

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Post by James on Feb 6, 2023 7:26:21 GMT -6

The truth is that the window the Vikings think they have actually ended in 2018. After Kirk Cousin’s initial contract, they should have blew it up then. He was supposed to be our missing link, instead now the team has been trying to build around him which is hard because his contract is not cheap. But the Wilfs don’t wanna rebuild. Instead of a reset and getting some young guys who have potential to be stars, we find ourselves relying on washed up vets, overrated FAs and mid round-late round draft projects to win games.