Extend Cousins or ... ?

CAMartin
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 21, 2023 12:02:09 GMT -6

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Post by CAMartin on Apr 21, 2023 12:02:09 GMT -6

Apr 21, 2023 9:59:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 21, 2023 9:28:03 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

Every team has multiple QBs for reasons, just as they have multiple players at every position...injuries, realities of free agency, etc.

New to the game?

That isn't what you posted. You said they would extend Cousins if they didn't get their guy in the draft. So if they do get their guy, he would replace Cousins, no?

It must be glorious to have such limited scope.

"Their guy"...could mean a ready to start QB, in which case, they'd likely shop Cousins for the fiscal savings, though I imagine JJ would be concerned at the very least. Similarly, "their guy" could be seen as a longer-term project, someone that could learn from behind Cousins for at least one season while being prepped with the hope of being the new, young, long-term starter that's cheap for a few years.

What doesn't change is that KOC has been utterly in Cousins' corner since arriving, and has clearly been optimistic about the continuity for the coming season. Not my words, his, and that kinda overrules fans. My money is on Kirk starting this season, and if they don't feel that a new, young, drafted QB is progressing sufficiently through camp, Kirk gets another extension.

OK, KOC...time to earn that money and acclaim...!

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 22, 2023 19:17:29 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 22, 2023 19:17:29 GMT -6

Apr 21, 2023 10:12:07 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

Apr 21, 2023 7:54:49 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

I've always found that a distinguishing characteristic of the non-fan or fake fan is that they tend to make up their stances, rather than work with factual information (that's typically available).

It's probably fair to debate just how actively they are looking to replace him, because a succession plan for a 35 year old QB is something any reasonably sane front office is going to be considering, though I suspect all of you are going to have a very different perspective as to the why.

The Vikings are absolutely considering Cousins age, they are considering everything. It is kind of funny though, that prior to the rework, whenever his age was brought up, there would be a contingent of fans who would argue Cousins was pretty much in his prime. Now though? The Vikings are just being smart with Cousins advanced age.

Here is a list of QBs who started 14+ games at the age of 34 since 2000:

Tom Brady

Drew Brees

Trent Green

Peyton Manning

Brett Favre

Eli Manning

Tony Romo

Kirk Cousins

Jon Kitna

Matt Ryan

Philip Rivers

Ben Roethlisberger

Carson Palmer

Gus Frerotte

Russell Wilson

Matt Hasselbeck

Jay Cutler

From that list, Stafford got a massive deal at the age of 34, as did Wilson, Eli, Peyton, and Rivers. Brady got multiple large deals after 34 and both he and Brees got paid for years the team pretty much knew they weren't going to be around for, just for one last chance at a championship.

For better or worse, teams have consistently given out long term contracts to vet QBs at the age of 34 or older. A lot of the times they shouldn't, like with Wilson, Eli and Stafford, but sometimes it works out like it did with Brady and Manning, and to a much lesser extent, Brees. There are the Jay Cutlers of the NFL who no team would touch after he turned 34, and who was only on Miami that season because Tannehill got hurt right before the season, and there are QBs who get hurt or break down before they even turn 34 like Flacco and Newton. Most of the time though, teams will give out that extension.

Not the Vikings though. A move very savvy so far, I just wonder how long it will last if they don't get their QB in the draft. Will they give into Cousins demands if that happens? Probably, and we will all know that the Vikings are rolling with the guy they were stuck with versus the guy they actually want. Sorry, some of us will know that. Others will pretend this is normal behavior with a QB the HC and GM love.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 22, 2023 19:47:06 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Apr 22, 2023 19:47:06 GMT -6

Apr 21, 2023 12:02:09 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

Apr 21, 2023 9:59:15 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

That isn't what you posted. You said they would extend Cousins if they didn't get their guy in the draft. So if they do get their guy, he would replace Cousins, no?

It must be glorious to have such limited scope.

"Their guy"...could mean a ready to start QB, in which case, they'd likely shop Cousins for the fiscal savings, though I imagine JJ would be concerned at the very least. Similarly, "their guy" could be seen as a longer-term project, someone that could learn from behind Cousins for at least one season while being prepped with the hope of being the new, young, long-term starter that's cheap for a few years.

What doesn't change is that KOC has been utterly in Cousins' corner since arriving, and has clearly been optimistic about the continuity for the coming season. Not my words, his, and that kinda overrules fans. My money is on Kirk starting this season, and if they don't feel that a new, young, drafted QB is progressing sufficiently through camp, Kirk gets another extension.

Correct. The idea that we have the worst defense we have had in memory or maybe forever and one of the most consistently good offenses we have had and yet some fans want to ignore the defense, dump Kirk and play an unproven rookie is just mind boggling. Add to that the idea of trading multiple future picks to move up for a QB who is a development player at best on top of that is not logical

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 22, 2023 20:00:38 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Apr 22, 2023 20:00:38 GMT -6

Apr 22, 2023 19:17:29 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 21, 2023 10:12:07 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

It's probably fair to debate just how actively they are looking to replace him, because a succession plan for a 35 year old QB is something any reasonably sane front office is going to be considering, though I suspect all of you are going to have a very different perspective as to the why.

The Vikings are absolutely considering Cousins age, they are considering everything. It is kind of funny though, that prior to the rework, whenever his age was brought up, there would be a contingent of fans who would argue Cousins was pretty much in his prime. Now though? The Vikings are just being smart with Cousins advanced age.

Here is a list of QBs who started 14+ games at the age of 34 since 2000:

Tom Brady

Drew Brees

Trent Green

Peyton Manning

Brett Favre

Eli Manning

Tony Romo

Kirk Cousins

Jon Kitna

Matt Ryan

Philip Rivers

Ben Roethlisberger

Carson Palmer

Gus Frerotte

Russell Wilson

Matt Hasselbeck

Jay Cutler

From that list, Stafford got a massive deal at the age of 34, as did Wilson, Eli, Peyton, and Rivers. Brady got multiple large deals after 34 and both he and Brees got paid for years the team pretty much knew they weren't going to be around for, just for one last chance at a championship.

For better or worse, teams have consistently given out long term contracts to vet QBs at the age of 34 or older. A lot of the times they shouldn't, like with Wilson, Eli and Stafford, but sometimes it works out like it did with Brady and Manning, and to a much lesser extent, Brees. There are the Jay Cutlers of the NFL who no team would touch after he turned 34, and who was only on Miami that season because Tannehill got hurt right before the season, and there are QBs who get hurt or break down before they even turn 34 like Flacco and Newton. Most of the time though, teams will give out that extension.

Not the Vikings though. A move very savvy so far, I just wonder how long it will last if they don't get their QB in the draft. Will they give into Cousins demands if that happens? Probably, and we will all know that the Vikings are rolling with the guy they were stuck with versus the guy they actually want. Sorry, some of us will know that. Others will pretend this is normal behavior with a QB the HC and GM love.

It’s a bit disingenuous to use the “14 games at 34” to reinforce your point. There are other QBs who were very effective after 34 but maybe had an injury that year that was an anomaly like Rodgers and Kurt Warner. Rodgers will most likely still be playing this year and his 34TH year he was injured but played 5 seasons of 16-17 games after that. Warner played more games than that at 37 and 38.

The undeniable trend is QBs are playing longer than ever before when they are pocket passers and not throwing RBs. Kirk hasn’t missed games and could easily play at this level for another 5-6 years if we give him a decent OL.

The team has a heck of a lot of more pressing needs to fill than QB and those are the areas to focus on.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 5:00:04 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Apr 23, 2023 5:00:04 GMT -6

Apr 22, 2023 19:17:29 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

For better or worse, teams have consistently given out long term contracts to vet QBs at the age of 34 or older. A lot of the times they shouldn't, like with Wilson, Eli and Stafford, but sometimes it works out like it did with Brady and Manning, and to a much lesser extent, Brees. There are the Jay Cutlers of the NFL who no team would touch after he turned 34, and who was only on Miami that season because Tannehill got hurt right before the season, and there are QBs who get hurt or break down before they even turn 34 like Flacco and Newton. Most of the time though, teams will give out that extension.

I won't requote the entire list, but quite a few names on said list if signed to long term contracts were or are disasters. Some would be considered good deals. My point is questioning just how active they are looking to replace him. I do agree with you to the extent that they are actively trying to figure out a succession plan for Cousins, though actively finding a succession plan and actively trying to replace are probably two different things. They need to find a succession plan. He's 35 this year. He's put decent numbers, but father time is undefeated and it's only a matter of time until Kirk's end comes. I went as far as to say in my PPA they will draft a QB in rounds 1 or 2 in the draft, so I'm guessing one of the top 5 will be in purple by the end of next weekend...

but if they don't, then what? They are playing their cards close so to speak. So while I suspect they have a plan or even multiple plans, I will say that I won't be surprised if part of their planning includes an extension, and since Kirk doesn't want to go year to year, you know what that means. I won't be thrilled if it does (unless Kirk's salary requests are considerably lower than I suspect that they are), but don't be surprised if that's what it is.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 5:04:47 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 1 more like this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Apr 23, 2023 5:04:47 GMT -6

Krauser said this over at DN in this article... thought it was worth reposting here. It's really more of an indictment of Rick than anything else, but it was well said.

Krauser said:

Vikings fans and media can't stop whining about paying market rate for a good veteran QB. But Garoppolo cost the Niners almost as much as Cousins did over the last 5 years, and somehow their defense is still good, and their roster in general is one of the best in the league.

Niners had one major advantage in that timespan -- one of the years Garoppolo got hurt, they ended up with the 2nd overall pick and drafted Nick Bosa.

But the rest of their defense is built out of players the Vikings could've had for themselves. Fred Warner was a 3rd round pick. Arik Armstead was a mid-1st rounder, drafted 6 slots after Trae Waynes. Dre Greenlaw was a 5th rounder, drafted between Dru Samia and Cameron Smith. Talanoa Hufanga was another 5th rounder, drafted after Cam Bynum, Ihmir Smith-Marsette and Zach Davidson. Drake Jackson was drafted last year, 2 slots after Ed Ingram. Azeez Al-Shahir was a UDFA. Chavarrius Ward signed as a free agent in 2022 for basically the same first year cap hit as Minnesota gave that year to Patrick Peterson. Tashaun Gipson (who I wanted to sign last year) played in 2023 for vet minimum. Samson Ebukam cost $12M/2.

The rest of their roster too: Trent Williams chose to go to SF over Minnesota. Deebo Samuel was drafted after Garrett Bradbury. Brandon Aiyuk was drafted in the Vikings slot after they traded down before taking Jeff Gladney. George Kittle was drafted between Ben Gedeon and Rodney Adams. Kyle Juszczyk was a free agent. Elijah Mitchell was a 6th round pick. Brock Purdy was Mr Irrelevant.

The difference isn't the cost of the QBs, it's that the Niners organization does a better job finding and developing talent, and coaching them up to play better. They've even been able to waste multiple top 50 picks on busts (Trey Lance, Solomon Thomas, Rueben Foster, Dante Pettis, and probably Javon Kinlaw) while trading multiple picks for McCaffrey and to move up for Lance, and their roster is *still* way better than the Vikings.

But yeah, the Vikings problem is all about "paying top dollar for a QB".

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 6:07:51 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 23, 2023 6:07:51 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 5:00:04 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

I won't requote the entire list, but quite a few names on said list if signed to long term contracts were or are disasters. Some would be considered good deals.

Correct, most are disasters and the few good ones are future HOF, elite QBs.

Apr 23, 2023 5:00:04 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

I do agree with you to the extent that they are actively trying to figure out a succession plan for Cousins, though actively finding a succession plan and actively trying to replace are probably two different things.

When you have the option to extend your QB, like so many of those other teams chose to do with those 34 year old QBs, you don't need a succession plan. The Vikings, with their decision to not extend Kirk, CHOSE to need that succession plan, which to me means they are actively trying to replace him. However if they don't get their guy and they are going into year 3 with nothing at QB, I suspect that you will be right and they will extend him as a last resort.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 6:11:14 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 23, 2023 6:11:14 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 5:04:47 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

Krauser said this over at DN in this article... thought it was worth reposting here. It's really more of an indictment of Rick than anything else, but it was well said.

Krauser said:

Vikings fans and media can't stop whining about paying market rate for a good veteran QB. But Garoppolo cost the Niners almost as much as Cousins did over the last 5 years, and somehow their defense is still good, and their roster in general is one of the best in the league.

Niners had one major advantage in that timespan -- one of the years Garoppolo got hurt, they ended up with the 2nd overall pick and drafted Nick Bosa.

But the rest of their defense is built out of players the Vikings could've had for themselves. Fred Warner was a 3rd round pick. Arik Armstead was a mid-1st rounder, drafted 6 slots after Trae Waynes. Dre Greenlaw was a 5th rounder, drafted between Dru Samia and Cameron Smith. Talanoa Hufanga was another 5th rounder, drafted after Cam Bynum, Ihmir Smith-Marsette and Zach Davidson. Drake Jackson was drafted last year, 2 slots after Ed Ingram. Azeez Al-Shahir was a UDFA. Chavarrius Ward signed as a free agent in 2022 for basically the same first year cap hit as Minnesota gave that year to Patrick Peterson. Tashaun Gipson (who I wanted to sign last year) played in 2023 for vet minimum. Samson Ebukam cost $12M/2.

The rest of their roster too: Trent Williams chose to go to SF over Minnesota. Deebo Samuel was drafted after Garrett Bradbury. Brandon Aiyuk was drafted in the Vikings slot after they traded down before taking Jeff Gladney. George Kittle was drafted between Ben Gedeon and Rodney Adams. Kyle Juszczyk was a free agent. Elijah Mitchell was a 6th round pick. Brock Purdy was Mr Irrelevant.

The difference isn't the cost of the QBs, it's that the Niners organization does a better job finding and developing talent, and coaching them up to play better. They've even been able to waste multiple top 50 picks on busts (Trey Lance, Solomon Thomas, Rueben Foster, Dante Pettis, and probably Javon Kinlaw) while trading multiple picks for McCaffrey and to move up for Lance, and their roster is *still* way better than the Vikings.

But yeah, the Vikings problem is all about "paying top dollar for a QB".

Krauser starts by dishonestly saying Jimmy G made almost as much as Kirk, when he only made 81% of Kirk's salary over that time, but he is correct. If you have arguably the best run team of the past 5 seasons you can still build around a very average high priced QB. Then again if you do that you can get by with starting the last pick of the draft for half the season and don't even need to pay Kirk. Is Lynch available? Can we trade Kwesi and our 23rd for him?

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 6:31:16 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 23, 2023 6:31:16 GMT -6

Apr 22, 2023 20:00:38 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

It’s a bit disingenuous to use the “14 games at 34” to reinforce your point

Well, that is because you missed my point. It wasn't that there are very few QBs at the age of 34 who are any good (something that is true, but not my point), it is that teams generally give healthy QBs long term extensions at the age of 34. Something the Vikings didn't do with Kirk.

However...

Apr 22, 2023 20:00:38 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The undeniable trend is QBs are playing longer than ever before when they are pocket passers and not throwing RBs. Kirk hasn’t missed games and could easily play at this level for another 5-6 years if we give him a decent OL.

Tom Brady does not a trend make. Since 2000, there have been 28 seasons where a QB 35 or older won a single playoff game or more. 9 of those seasons were by Tom Brady.

From 1977 to 1999 there were 17 seasons where that happened. 1 less non-Brady QB than the past 23 years.

Going back through the age splits comparing the past 23 years to the previous 23:

1977-1999
30-34: 46
25-29: 66
24 and under: 12

2000-Present
30-34: 38
25-29: 65
24 and under: 26

Kind of an interesting trend with younger QBs having more success recently and it is likely due to the rising cost of veteran QBs compared to QBs on their rookie deals as well as college football running more of a pro style offense.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 8:01:21 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Apr 23, 2023 8:01:21 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 6:31:16 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Going back through the age splits comparing the past 23 years to the previous 23:

One has to remember that there were fewer teams and fewer playoff games in those first 23 years you listed.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 10:15:29 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Apr 23, 2023 10:15:29 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 6:31:16 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 22, 2023 20:00:38 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

It’s a bit disingenuous to use the “14 games at 34” to reinforce your point

Well, that is because you missed my point. It wasn't that there are very few QBs at the age of 34 who are any good (something that is true, but not my point), it is that teams generally give healthy QBs long term extensions at the age of 34. Something the Vikings didn't do with Kirk.

However...

Apr 22, 2023 20:00:38 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The undeniable trend is QBs are playing longer than ever before when they are pocket passers and not throwing RBs. Kirk hasn’t missed games and could easily play at this level for another 5-6 years if we give him a decent OL.

Tom Brady does not a trend make. Since 2000, there have been 28 seasons where a QB 35 or older won a single playoff game or more. 9 of those seasons were by Tom Brady.

From 1977 to 1999 there were 17 seasons where that happened. 1 less non-Brady QB than the past 23 years.

Going back through the age splits comparing the past 23 years to the previous 23:

1977-1999
30-34: 46
25-29: 66
24 and under: 12

2000-Present
30-34: 38
25-29: 65
24 and under: 26

Kind of an interesting trend with younger QBs having more success recently and it is likely due to the rising cost of veteran QBs compared to QBs on their rookie deals as well as college football running more of a pro style offense.

We had Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning all playing up to or into their 40’ s because the rules are changing how much they get hit. It’s not just Brady. I’m guessing a lot of these younger QBs who are trending now because they are replacing the old guard will play that long too.

Unless the position is changed to a RB with benefits type role like so many seem to want where they take bigger hits running in which case you would be right but that would not be a good overall thing for those who are taking the hits.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 12:47:32 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Apr 23, 2023 12:47:32 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 6:11:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Is Lynch available? Can we trade Kwesi and our 23rd for him?

Yeah, let's get rid of our GM that we just hired 15 months ago. *eyeroll*

Keep in mind that it took Lynch three draft classes until the team was competitive and made an SB appearance.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 13:22:28 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by SiteWolf on Apr 23, 2023 13:22:28 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 12:47:32 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Apr 23, 2023 6:11:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Is Lynch available? Can we trade Kwesi and our 23rd for him?

Yeah, let's get rid of our GM that we just hired 15 months ago. *eyeroll*

Keep in mind that it took Lynch three draft classes until the team was competitive and made an SB appearance.

Yeah, KAM came in last year having never been a GM, moved his family and started working for the team with 2 months to hire a head coach, get on the same page, and run the first draft in his life. He did so looking to undo some of the disarray the previous regime left behind and seemingly just expected by the Wilfs to stick with Cousins for 2 years.

Now he's got his feet under him and assumedly more of a plan. We're not privy to that plan, so we're connecting dots without nearly enough information. As you said, Lynch didn't turn the Niners around immediately, either....and the disarray he stepped into wasn't what KAM has dealt with.

Patience, grasshoppers. No pain no gain. Some of those complaining about KAM would REALLY be complaining if he HAD gone with a full teardown of this team.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 15:37:34 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Apr 23, 2023 15:37:34 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 12:47:32 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Apr 23, 2023 6:11:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Is Lynch available? Can we trade Kwesi and our 23rd for him?

Yeah, let's get rid of our GM that we just hired 15 months ago. *eyeroll*

Keep in mind that it took Lynch three draft classes until the team was competitive and made an SB appearance.

That was comment was completely tongue in cheek. I would trade Kwesi in a minute for Lynch though, just like I would trade KOC for Reed, McVay or Shanahan in a minute, and I like KOC.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Apr 23, 2023 17:24:54 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikadam on Apr 23, 2023 17:24:54 GMT -6

Apr 23, 2023 15:37:34 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Apr 23, 2023 12:47:32 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Yeah, let's get rid of our GM that we just hired 15 months ago. *eyeroll*

Keep in mind that it took Lynch three draft classes until the team was competitive and made an SB appearance.

That was comment was completely tongue in cheek. I would trade Kwesi in a minute for Lynch though, just like I would trade KOC for Reed, McVay or Shanahan in a minute, and I like KOC.

Yeah it's easy to root for the guys that have already accomplished things.