Extend Cousins or ... ?

Raptorman
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 3, 2023 8:25:03 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Mar 3, 2023 8:25:03 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 6:24:15 GMT -6 coltrane said:

Mar 2, 2023 20:16:58 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

So, you can’t back up you claim. Par for the course.

😂 I can't sit here all day and explain how things work to you. Anyone who's ever played team sports for more than a year in junior high school knows how impactful a team leader can be. A true leader can uplift an entire team, on both sides of the ball.

But such intangibles don't show up on stat sheets, so to you they don't exist. I get it. I'm confident Cousins will figure out how to become a leader this year. He just needs a little more time is all.

Amazing isn't it. That Brady is the only top QB in the league in 25 years that is able to lift his defense and the rest of the team year after year for over 20 years. Rodgers didn't do it, Peyton Manning didn't do it, Eli Manning didn't do it, Ben Roethlisberger didn't do it, Nope, only Brady. He must have had enough, because he couldn't do it this year. Wow. What an impressive player. He was so impactful, that in New England they remained a top 10 defense for 2 years after he left. And still this past year only dropped to 11 in PPG.

But in other words, you have only your opinion and nothing tangible to back up your claim. Because at one time you played sports.

Last Edit: Mar 3, 2023 8:26:54 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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vikingpwr
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 3, 2023 11:45:43 GMT -6 Funkytown, comet52, and 1 more like this

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Post by vikingpwr on Mar 3, 2023 11:45:43 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 8:21:37 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Mar 2, 2023 19:39:55 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

I'm afraid that won't be the case and I'm not happy about it. The team will probably extend him and attempt to draft his successor in 2024...2024...2025.

Nobody kicks a can down the road like we do....Can Kickin' Champs baby!!

Hmmmmm.....Mickey Loomis might have something to say about that.

PurpleFloyd
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown, MidwinterViking, and 1 more like this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 7:01:13 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mar 3, 2023 5:18:42 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The fact that you would rather have Mullens as the QB shows how irrational you are on the QB position. If your beef is that he isn’t good enough then wanting a player who is demonstrably worse across the board shows your motive has nothing to do with how good he is.

It isn't Cousins versus a worse QB, it is Cousins versus a worse QB + a drafted QB ready to take over at some point in the season + 45 million more in cap space to spend on players around that QB to make them better.

The Vikings employed that strategy for decades prior to Cousins with better results.

We had that. Kellen Mond. We also had Teddy, Ponder, TJ and a bag jumper named Joe Webb. It’s not a serious take.

Keep the one QB who is a known quantity and draft a replacement when you think you found one and when the replacement proves he is better then play him and move on from Kirk. This is the logical way to approach it.

Danchat
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 3, 2023 18:52:40 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid likes this

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Post by Danchat on Mar 3, 2023 18:52:40 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Mar 3, 2023 7:01:13 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

It isn't Cousins versus a worse QB, it is Cousins versus a worse QB + a drafted QB ready to take over at some point in the season + 45 million more in cap space to spend on players around that QB to make them better.

The Vikings employed that strategy for decades prior to Cousins with better results.

We had that. Kellen Mond. We also had Teddy, Ponder, TJ and a bag jumper named Joe Webb. It’s not a serious take.

Keep the one QB who is a known quantity and draft a replacement when you think you found one and when the replacement proves he is better then play him and move on from Kirk. This is the logical way to approach it.

The problem is, as we've discussed several times, when we stay in contention it becomes harder to draft that QB because of draft capital. That's how you end up with a guy like Mond in the 3rd round, where the hit rate on QBs is about 10-15%. They reportedly attempted to move up for Fields in that draft, but they couldn't move enough draft capital as that would hinder the current team.

And how does the replacement "proves he is better"? Kirk is always healthy, when will this QB get live reps? There has to be a leap of faith at some point, whether it be a smaller one (like the Packers seem to be taking with Rodgers to Love now, giving Love 3 years on the bench) or a bigger one (whoskmoon 's suggestion). Or I guess we ride Kirk out until he's 40, age regression finally hits and we're completely screwed that year and then screwed the next season because we finally have to pay the price on his void years / pushing money back. I guess you can always hope for a Chargers Rivers to Herbert transition.

The thing is, the Vikings aren't going to take that leap of faith right after they finished 13-4. Maybe they make that leap if 2023 is a flop.

Last Edit: Mar 3, 2023 18:53:15 GMT -6 by Danchat

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 3, 2023 19:13:56 GMT -6 MidwinterViking and vikadam like this

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Post by CAMartin on Mar 3, 2023 19:13:56 GMT -6

So...wait, if I get this right, the problem is that the darn ol' Kirk stays healthy, consistently produces despite crap line pla, and helped the Vikings have a 13-win season. Gosh, the thoughtless bastard....

OK, KOC...time to earn that money and acclaim...!

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 6:47:44 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid, Danchat, and 3 more like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Mar 4, 2023 6:47:44 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

We had that. Kellen Mond. We also had Teddy, Ponder, TJ and a bag jumper named Joe Webb. It’s not a serious take.

You just proved my point. Even when the Vikings have swung and missed on a guy like Ponder, they still made the playoffs in his second year. Imagine what they could do if they didn't get the worst case scenario?

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Keep the one QB who is a known quantity and draft a replacement when you think you found one and when the replacement proves he is better then play him and move on from Kirk. This is the logical way to approach it.

Keep locking into guaranteed deals with a guy that make it nearly impossible to walk away from him while also trying to find his replacement without spending the picks necessary to do so? Very logical.

Maybe you could point to a single example of a team sticking with a QB of Kirk's caliber at this stage of his career and winning a SB with him?

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 6:59:33 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Mar 4, 2023 6:59:33 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 18:52:40 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

We had that. Kellen Mond. We also had Teddy, Ponder, TJ and a bag jumper named Joe Webb. It’s not a serious take.

Keep the one QB who is a known quantity and draft a replacement when you think you found one and when the replacement proves he is better then play him and move on from Kirk. This is the logical way to approach it.

The problem is, as we've discussed several times, when we stay in contention it becomes harder to draft that QB because of draft capital. That's how you end up with a guy like Mond in the 3rd round, where the hit rate on QBs is about 10-15%. They reportedly attempted to move up for Fields in that draft, but they couldn't move enough draft capital as that would hinder the current team.

And how does the replacement "proves he is better"? Kirk is always healthy, when will this QB get live reps? There has to be a leap of faith at some point, whether it be a smaller one (like the Packers seem to be taking with Rodgers to Love now, giving Love 3 years on the bench) or a bigger one (whoskmoon 's suggestion). Or I guess we ride Kirk out until he's 40, age regression finally hits and we're completely screwed that year and then screwed the next season because we finally have to pay the price on his void years / pushing money back. I guess you can always hope for a Chargers Rivers to Herbert transition.

The thing is, the Vikings aren't going to take that leap of faith right after they finished 13-4. Maybe they make that leap if 2023 is a flop.

It isn't even an issue with staying in contention. The Vikings had drafted 14th and 12th (you know, because he is such a successful QB) prior to this draft and just have refused to take a real swing at a QBOTF. They have had the opportunity to draft QBs like Jackson and Hurts, but were in a situation contractually with their current QB that they realistically would never have made a move even if they loved those guys as QBs (something Spielman claims he actually did with Hurts).

An extension this year will do the exact same thing. If it is a fully guaranteed 1 year deal prior to the draft, the Vikings aren't drafting a guy to sit for 2 seasons and not contribute in 2023 or 2024, and if it is a multiple year deal they won't do it next year either.

Last Edit: Mar 4, 2023 6:59:55 GMT -6 by whoskmoon

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 8:43:55 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Mar 4, 2023 8:43:55 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 18:52:40 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

We had that. Kellen Mond. We also had Teddy, Ponder, TJ and a bag jumper named Joe Webb. It’s not a serious take.

Keep the one QB who is a known quantity and draft a replacement when you think you found one and when the replacement proves he is better then play him and move on from Kirk. This is the logical way to approach it.

The problem is, as we've discussed several times, when we stay in contention it becomes harder to draft that QB because of draft capital. That's how you end up with a guy like Mond in the 3rd round, where the hit rate on QBs is about 10-15%. They reportedly attempted to move up for Fields in that draft, but they couldn't move enough draft capital as that would hinder the current team.

And how does the replacement "proves he is better"? Kirk is always healthy, when will this QB get live reps? There has to be a leap of faith at some point, whether it be a smaller one (like the Packers seem to be taking with Rodgers to Love now, giving Love 3 years on the bench) or a bigger one (whoskmoon 's suggestion). Or I guess we ride Kirk out until he's 40, age regression finally hits and we're completely screwed that year and then screwed the next season because we finally have to pay the price on his void years / pushing money back. I guess you can always hope for a Chargers Rivers to Herbert transition.

The thing is, the Vikings aren't going to take that leap of faith right after they finished 13-4. Maybe they make that leap if 2023 is a flop.

But it’s a tired and debunked argument. There are examples of drafting busts early and successful QBs out of the top 15.

When we drafted Ponder many fans wanted us to trade up and take Locker, Gabbert, Newton. Newton was the only QB who did anything in that bunch and even he isn’t anyone that would be considered Franchise in the way fans are setting expectations for what they want out of a QB.

Kaepernick and Dalton came out of round 2 and were as successful as Newton and certainly outperformed and of the following 1st rounders taken that year.

Every QB gets a chance to show how good they are in training camp and preseason. That’s how Russell Wilson got promoted. Mahomes played behind Smith for a year and showed in practice and meetings that he had what it took to allow them to move on. Why do you think this is impossible for the Vikings to do?

PurpleFloyd
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6

Mar 4, 2023 6:47:44 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

We had that. Kellen Mond. We also had Teddy, Ponder, TJ and a bag jumper named Joe Webb. It’s not a serious take.

You just proved my point. Even when the Vikings have swung and missed on a guy like Ponder, they still made the playoffs in his second year. Imagine what they could do if they didn't get the worst case scenario?

Mar 3, 2023 17:28:49 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Keep the one QB who is a known quantity and draft a replacement when you think you found one and when the replacement proves he is better then play him and move on from Kirk. This is the logical way to approach it.

Keep locking into guaranteed deals with a guy that make it nearly impossible to walk away from him while also trying to find his replacement without spending the picks necessary to do so? Very logical.

Maybe you could point to a single example of a team sticking with a QB of Kirk's caliber at this stage of his career and winning a SB with him?

The Vikings made the playoffs due to their defense not anything Ponder did. And they could have drafted a QB the next year but took a LT that was a huge disappointment. In that draft Luck started out good but ultimately was never an elite top 5 QB which is what our fans are demanding and none of the other round 1 QBs had a career that resembles what our fans are calling for. The QBs taken outside the 1st were more successful including our own Kirk Cousins who will be regarded as the 2nd best QB of that class behind Wilson.

But to be clear- I’m not in any way against replacing Kirk if a better option is there. I’m just not into sending away the best multi year QB we have had in decades for an unknown. And I’m certainly not for trading a bunch of future picks to move up in this draft.

However- I will say if we could trade JJ, Kirk and Cook for enough picks to go get Levis and the WR from Clemson I would certainly have interest in that if the team wants to rebuild

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 9:27:14 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid, mngopher35, and 1 more like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Mar 4, 2023 9:27:14 GMT -6

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The Vikings made the playoffs due to their defense not anything Ponder did.

It had very little to do with the defense that was 18th in PPD, but that isn't the point. Even if it was the D, Ponder on a rookie deal allowed the team to add/keep pieces around him that made it so he didn't have to be a good QB to win. Right now the Vikings need that same type of team, but can't afford it.

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

But to be clear- I’m not in any way against replacing Kirk if a better option is there. I’m just not into sending away the best multi year QB we have had in decades for an unknown. And I’m certainly not for trading a bunch of future picks to move up in this draft.

I get that, but to get better sometimes you have to get worse, and right now remaining with Kirk does hurt the Vikings chances of getting better at QB. And for what?

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

However- I will say if we could trade JJ, Kirk and Cook for enough picks to go get Levis and the WR from Clemson I would certainly have interest in that if the team wants to rebuild

Kirk, Cook and this and next year's first sure, but trading JJ would be a no for me. JJ is a type of WR who makes his QB significantly better, and I would want that for the next QB. It doesn't matter though, because the Vikings need to take a swing and never will as long as Kirk remains on the team.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 9:36:39 GMT -6 mngopher35 likes this

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Post by Norse on Mar 4, 2023 9:36:39 GMT -6

Mar 3, 2023 19:13:56 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

So...wait, if I get this right, the problem is that the darn ol' Kirk stays healthy, consistently produces despite crap line pla, and helped the Vikings have a 13-win season. Gosh, the thoughtless bastard....

The one and done Kirk. Who hasn’t accomplished what he was paid to come in and do.
So far that experiment has been a Failure.

PurpleFloyd
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 9:37:32 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Mar 4, 2023 9:37:32 GMT -6

Mar 4, 2023 9:27:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The Vikings made the playoffs due to their defense not anything Ponder did.

It had very little to do with the defense that was 18th in PPD, but that isn't the point. Even if it was the D, Ponder on a rookie deal allowed the team to add/keep pieces around him that made it so he didn't have to be a good QB to win. Right now the Vikings need that same type of team, but can't afford it.

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

But to be clear- I’m not in any way against replacing Kirk if a better option is there. I’m just not into sending away the best multi year QB we have had in decades for an unknown. And I’m certainly not for trading a bunch of future picks to move up in this draft.

I get that, but to get better sometimes you have to get worse, and right now remaining with Kirk does hurt the Vikings chances of getting better at QB. And for what?

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

However- I will say if we could trade JJ, Kirk and Cook for enough picks to go get Levis and the WR from Clemson I would certainly have interest in that if the team wants to rebuild

Kirk, Cook and this and next year's first sure, but trading JJ would be a no for me. JJ is a type of WR who makes his QB significantly better, and I would want that for the next QB. It doesn't matter though, because the Vikings need to take a swing and never will as long as Kirk remains on the team.

Name the pieces around him we got to keep around Ponder on offense? Peterson got a contract but we also had McNabb on the roster that was making starter money.

The whole “need a cheap salary so we can add talent around him” has literally never worked in our history

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 9:41:38 GMT -6 via mobile vikadam likes this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Mar 4, 2023 9:41:38 GMT -6

Mar 4, 2023 9:36:39 GMT -6 Norse said:

Mar 3, 2023 19:13:56 GMT -6 CAMartin said:

So...wait, if I get this right, the problem is that the darn ol' Kirk stays healthy, consistently produces despite crap line pla, and helped the Vikings have a 13-win season. Gosh, the thoughtless bastard....

The one and done Kirk. Who hasn’t accomplished what he was paid to come in and do.
So far that experiment has been a Failure.

What specifically was he supposed to do that he hasn’t?

Biggest come from behind win in history
Historic number of come from behind wins
Second best win total in team regular season history

But yeah we have receivers who can’t get open and OL who can’t block and it’s his fault

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 9:48:45 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid, mngopher35, and 1 more like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Mar 4, 2023 9:48:45 GMT -6

Mar 4, 2023 9:37:32 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Mar 4, 2023 9:27:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

It had very little to do with the defense that was 18th in PPD, but that isn't the point. Even if it was the D, Ponder on a rookie deal allowed the team to add/keep pieces around him that made it so he didn't have to be a good QB to win. Right now the Vikings need that same type of team, but can't afford it.

I get that, but to get better sometimes you have to get worse, and right now remaining with Kirk does hurt the Vikings chances of getting better at QB. And for what?

Kirk, Cook and this and next year's first sure, but trading JJ would be a no for me. JJ is a type of WR who makes his QB significantly better, and I would want that for the next QB. It doesn't matter though, because the Vikings need to take a swing and never will as long as Kirk remains on the team.

Name the pieces around him we got to keep around Ponder on offense? Peterson got a contract but we also had McNabb on the roster that was making starter money.

McNabb wasn't making anything from the Vikings in 2012, and in 2011 only made 5 million, about a 3rd of what he got in his extension in Washington.

The whole “need a cheap salary so we can add talent around him” has literally never worked in our history

Nothing has worked in our history, but the Viking have come a lot closer building teams around cast off QBs than they have trying to build one around Cousins. On top of that, unless you have that HOF QB, it seems to be the only strategy for success there is around the NFL, even if we have always fallen short.

mngopher35
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Extend Cousins or ... ? Mar 4, 2023 10:12:17 GMT -6 via mobile PurpleKoolaid likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on Mar 4, 2023 10:12:17 GMT -6

Mar 4, 2023 9:27:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

The Vikings made the playoffs due to their defense not anything Ponder did.

It had very little to do with the defense that was 18th in PPD, but that isn't the point. Even if it was the D, Ponder on a rookie deal allowed the team to add/keep pieces around him that made it so he didn't have to be a good QB to win. Right now the Vikings need that same type of team, but can't afford it.

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

But to be clear- I’m not in any way against replacing Kirk if a better option is there. I’m just not into sending away the best multi year QB we have had in decades for an unknown. And I’m certainly not for trading a bunch of future picks to move up in this draft.

I get that, but to get better sometimes you have to get worse, and right now remaining with Kirk does hurt the Vikings chances of getting better at QB. And for what?

Mar 4, 2023 9:00:29 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

However- I will say if we could trade JJ, Kirk and Cook for enough picks to go get Levis and the WR from Clemson I would certainly have interest in that if the team wants to rebuild

Kirk, Cook and this and next year's first sure, but trading JJ would be a no for me. JJ is a type of WR who makes his QB significantly better, and I would want that for the next QB. It doesn't matter though, because the Vikings need to take a swing and never will as long as Kirk remains on the team.

Exactly. We have seen this experiment play out and know what we will do continuing this path forward (won’t be better than when a younger Kirk joined a team that just made nfc championship with keenum). It’s not just a Kirk issue as many want to move on from other vets for similar reasons but he simply hasn’t lived up to his contract or the initial expectations. There really is no reason to keep him around unless you feel the need to maintain mediocrity at all costs. Even if we don’t have an immediate replacement and take a step back it still gives us a better chance/more assets to build the roster back up.

It’s also funny to tell people wanting to move on from cousins it’s irrational etc then say we should also move on from JJ. He’s a young superstar that actually is a top tier talent. Moving on from cousins is because he hasn’t been a top tier talent despite being paid at that level over the last 5 years and is at the point of his career he is likely going to be declining. That’s a very logical approach and it’s why people also talk about moving on from guys like Kendrick’s, smith, Thielen, Cook etc. It’s just with Kirk for some reason people all of a sudden pretend we can’t possibly make those types of decisions for the future.

Last Edit: Mar 4, 2023 10:13:36 GMT -6 by mngopher35