Extend Cousins or ... ?

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 15:29:39 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on Oct 2, 2023 15:29:39 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 15:14:29 GMT -6 VFL said:

Oct 2, 2023 13:48:06 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Cousins is so bad. Remember the Last Vikings QB who threw for 25+ TDS a year for 5 years in a row? You don't? Because there isn't one. Matter of fact the last MN QB who even threw 25+ TDs in a year was Favre. And before him, Culpepper. But the next QB will be better.

And that got the Vikings 1 playoff win in the wild card round through 6 years and a measly 2 playoff berths. But hey, claim dominance because Kirk tossed some TDs.

Was he claiming dominance or probably suggesting we shouldn't take Cousins for granted? We can acknowledge team failures the same time we praise individual stats. Heck, we have a whole thread each year dedicated to it: The Positives.

General thoughts:

I've decided that debating Cousins is like debating politics. Extremists on both sides constantly yelling at each other with their annoying pissing contests. No civil discourse to be found. It's all, "I'm right. You're stupid!" Yeah, thanks for that.

...meanwhile, the rest of us normal people, somewhere in the middle, just watch and shake our heads ... occasionally daring to chime in to promote civil discourse. But eventually, the yelling gets louder and louder. And we walk away.

Can we have a few more in the middle posters who want to promote civil discourse chime in once in a while? Fewer people with intense biases? Because the yelling is getting louder and louder! "Quit arguing, Mom and Dad! I'm trying to watch football here!"

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 15:31:12 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 15:42:33 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Oct 2, 2023 15:42:33 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 15:14:29 GMT -6 VFL said:

Oct 2, 2023 13:48:06 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Cousins is so bad. Remember the Last Vikings QB who threw for 25+ TDS a year for 5 years in a row? You don't? Because there isn't one. Matter of fact the last MN QB who even threw 25+ TDs in a year was Favre. And before him, Culpepper. But the next QB will be better.

And that got the Vikings 1 playoff win in the wild card round through 6 years and a measly 2 playoff berths. But hey, claim dominance because Kirk tossed some TDs.

So, tell us what got us all the other playoff spots if it wasn't the QB? Unless you really think that Fran and Joe took us to the Super Bowl.

You know, people today don't appreciate how dominate the Vikings defense was under Grant for most of those years. From 1968-1977 the Vikings defense averaged only 13 ppg given up. Even Funky could have won at QB. The Problem was that Joe and Fran couldn't get it done against the AFC teams in the Super Bowl. The Vikings had as more games over 25 ppg on defense the last two years than the Vikings did in that whole 10 year period. 18-11

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 17:01:24 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 18:08:44 GMT -6

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Post by VFL on Oct 2, 2023 18:08:44 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 15:29:39 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Oct 2, 2023 15:14:29 GMT -6 VFL said:

And that got the Vikings 1 playoff win in the wild card round through 6 years and a measly 2 playoff berths. But hey, claim dominance because Kirk tossed some TDs.

Was he claiming dominance or probably suggesting we shouldn't take Cousins for granted? We can acknowledge team failures the same time we praise individual stats. Heck, we have a whole thread each year dedicated to it: The Positives.

General thoughts:

I've decided that debating Cousins is like debating politics. Extremists on both sides constantly yelling at each other with their annoying pissing contests. No civil discourse to be found. It's all, "I'm right. You're stupid!" Yeah, thanks for that.

...meanwhile, the rest of us normal people, somewhere in the middle, just watch and shake our heads ... occasionally daring to chime in to promote civil discourse. But eventually, the yelling gets louder and louder. And we walk away.

Can we have a few more in the middle posters who want to promote civil discourse chime in once in a while? Fewer people with intense biases? Because the yelling is getting louder and louder! "Quit arguing, Mom and Dad! I'm trying to watch football here!"

Please accept my apologies for my opinions on Kirk not measuring up to your level of civility.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 18:16:10 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on Oct 2, 2023 18:16:10 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 18:08:44 GMT -6 VFL said:

Please accept my apologies for my opinions on Kirk not measuring up to your level of civility.

lol. That wasn't directed towards you. That was just me generally speaking. That's why I said "general thoughts" on the debate.

It's not as simple as...

...

Did the Vikings win the game where Kirk Cousins went 12/19, 139yds, 2TDs and 2INTs?

Yes. ✅

...and far too many people pretend it is and resort to oversimplification to try to prove something.

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 18:17:27 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 18:41:34 GMT -6

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Post by VFL on Oct 2, 2023 18:41:34 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 18:16:10 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Oct 2, 2023 18:08:44 GMT -6 VFL said:

Please accept my apologies for my opinions on Kirk not measuring up to your level of civility.

lol. That wasn't directed towards you. That was just me generally speaking. That's why I said "general thoughts" on the debate.

It's not as simple as...

...

Did the Vikings win the game where Kirk Cousins went 12/19, 139yds, 2TDs and 2INTs?

Yes. ✅

...and far too many people pretend it is and resort to oversimplification to try to prove something.

No worries!

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 18:44:37 GMT -6 by Funkytown: fixed quoting issues

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 19:42:48 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Oct 2, 2023 19:42:48 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 15:29:39 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

've decided that debating Cousins is like debating politics. Extremists on both sides constantly yelling at each other with their annoying pissing contests. No civil discourse to be found. It's all, "I'm right. You're stupid!" Yeah, thanks for that.

I see a bunch of people complaining about Cousins and a bunch of people complaining about complaining about Cousins for the most part. Is that like politics? Maybe?

Oct 2, 2023 15:29:39 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

..meanwhile, the rest of us normal people, somewhere in the middle, just watch and shake our heads

The normal, non-fan take on Cousins is that he is an average QB that you probably don't want to be QBing your team unless there are no other options. It is only here in MN when people's love of their team comes into play that you find anything different.

Oct 2, 2023 15:29:39 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Can we have a few more in the middle posters who want to promote civil discourse chime in once in a while?

I admit I have lost my temper in this thread, but it wasn't about Cousins, it was about a poster who refused to acknowledge multiplication was a valid form of mathematics. From what I have seen for the most part is you have a bunch of posters who want to complain about the most expensive player on the team not doing enough to make a very talented offense outside of the QB into anything special, and then a bunch of posters who make weak, emotionally charged and logically flawed arguments for why those other posters are wrong. That or they go on rants and call people morons or worse because they disagree with them about a QB.

The biggest tactic of these fans is to create a strawman and then argue that, because arguing the actual points being made is impossible. Something like this:

Oct 2, 2023 18:16:10 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

...and far too many people pretend it is and resort to oversimplification to try to prove something.

Seems to imply people are oversimplifying the wins and losses down to what the QB does and only that. Something that I have never once read anywhere on the internet. Ironically a gross oversimplification of the argument, but I know you would never post something like that, because you are so down the middle. *thumb_up*

Deleted Ghosted Member Posts: 0 Likes:	Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 20:09:04 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2023 20:09:04 GMT -6 I wonder if the other 30 teams’ fans that lose every year have this level of debate over the QB or if that’s uniquely us? Lol

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 20:10:49 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Oct 2, 2023 20:10:49 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 7:55:40 GMT -6 VFL said:

Oct 1, 2023 21:40:05 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Do you believe we would have improved the team from 2018 now if we kept Case or Teddy? How have both of them done without the defense we had here with them?

The team didn't improve under Kirk and he cost a whole lot more than the two you mentioned. I never was a Teddy fan and never claimed either of them to be great QBs. The FACT is that Keenum won a playoff game with that D. The FACT is the very next year, after multi-millions of dollars, Cousins didn't even make the playoffs with that D. I could care less how either one of them have done since their Minnesota days. I do care how Kirk has done while in Purple and quite frankly he has failed miserably for what he was brought in and paid to do.

If you think the offense and defense including coaches was the same in 2017 and 2018 except Kirk then I’m not sure we can have a reasonable dialogue.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 20:13:56 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Oct 2, 2023 20:13:56 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 10:03:05 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Oct 2, 2023 5:08:07 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Lol it’s actually come to this. Now, after years of Kirk isn’t good enough he has finally been good enough that those who irrationally hate him are morphing to being ok to have a lesser QB just to see him gone. I have to wonder sometimes what kind of bizarro world we live in where this mentality exists.

I have to wonder how many of these people would have been calling for the Vikings to move on from Fran in the 70’s because he was a stat padder who couldn’t win the big game.

What people are asking for now is to go back to what we have had at QB since Fran retired and anyone who understands team history understands how bad of an idea that is.

No, what we want is to go back to what we had with Tark, which is a far cry from what we have now.

The Vikings had arguably the worst QB situation they have ever had from 2012 to 2017, with their presumptive day 1 starter playing an average of 7.5 games a season over that time. Even with that they had more playoff success and did a better job scoring than Cousins has in his time here. There is no downside.

You want to go back to Teddy and TJ which is why you can’t be taken seriously.

Go dig up some stats

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 20:23:08 GMT -6 Funkytown and kmillard like this

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Post by Danchat on Oct 2, 2023 20:23:08 GMT -6

Meanwhile we're scoring only 22.5 points a game despite having one of the best offenses on paper...

Oct 2, 2023 20:09:04 GMT -6 jj said:

I wonder if the other 30 teams’ fans that lose every year have this level of debate over the QB or if that’s uniquely us? Lol

Nah, it's not just us.

Here's a Falcons-related tweet from some fans bickering about their QB situation. They traded Ryan going into his age 37 season which made some fans happy that they finally moved on (Ryan hadn't had a winning record since 2017, so they had went 4 straight losing seasons before trading him). They managed to downgrade to Marcus Mariota and Desmond Ridder, but what this guy is leaving out is the fact that Matt Ryan completely collapsed in Indy and would not be getting the Falcons anywhere. Also because he broke down so much physically that he retired and is a broadcaster now.

It's an interesting case study as the Falcons have removed all of Matt Ryan's money from the books so they were able to go sign some free agents to fix some of their holes, but they now have a QB problem. Perhaps they shouldn't have taken a QB in the mid 3rd round who had fallen because of accuracy issues - maybe should have taken a crack in the 1st round.

But back to your point - most if not all fanbases get like this when the QB gets paid the big bucks and the team is middling. It'll be interesting to see how the Chargers, Bengals, and Eagles fans react when their young QBs get into their expensive years of their contracts. Those Eagles fans wanted Carson Wentz gone very shortly after their SB run (and his borderline MVP season)...

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 20:28:14 GMT -6 by Danchat

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 20:29:38 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Oct 2, 2023 20:29:38 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 14:49:59 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Hmm. Getting spicy in here. Everyone needs to take a breath. Why so serious?!

Oct 1, 2023 20:55:54 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

Who hacked your account? What exactly is Cousins going to impart to a young QB that will take years to get? Kirk literally is the same QB now that he was in his first full year. Which vet taught Kirk, was it RGIII, who was drafted the same year and had a whopping 27 more starts and only 12 more wins than Kirk did over his first 3 years? In his first full year Kirk was 9-7, over 4000 yards, 29 TDs to 11 INT. His numbers have been remarkably similar every year since. There is very little evidence that he has learned much in the way of new skills or knowledge since his first full year of starting. He's the same guy, same stats, same results lol!

I would argue (OK I will) that the stuff Kirk can teach a young QB is the stuff we don't want our young QBs to know. They can learn it on their own, like Kirk did (or didn't, depending on your POV). If there is one thing Kirk definitely doesn't have, its any special knowledge about how to play winning football.

I'm not sure why you think anyone has hacked my account. I'm pretty consistent in arguing team game, complementary football, efficiency, intangibles, etc. Those were the exact same things I argued with Teddy. Remember how you and a bunch wanted vOlUmE sTaTs, though? Well, you have your volume stats, so what are you still griping about?

I just don't recall you being such a staunch defender of Kirk until about 48 hours ago. Maybe I had my eyes closed, I dunno.

I say it all the time, because some of us go way back. But you guys would've loved someone of Cousins' caliber when we had T-Jack (RIP), Rosenfels, Ponder, old AF McNabb, Cassel, Bridgewater, etc. Now that we have a really good quarterback who stays healthy, he's not good enough? Now we need a Mahomes?

He's an above average game manager, who does really dumb things at the worst time. I don't think that makes him really good. It makes him not quite good enough. I didn't spend all those years Ponder McNabb Cassel Bridgewater years jonesing for a QB who is not quite good enough. And even though we've been through this a hundred times its apparently necessary to point out again that as long as he's here we won't be finding that one who IS good enough.

I don't hate Kirk. I wish him well somewhere else, and I hope he proves me wrong when he's gone.

Yeah, okay, we all want Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. We all do. Heck, bring in Kelce and Swift, too. But guess what? It ain't happening. So, the other 31 teams have to find another way. If you believe in a quarterback, sure, shoot your shot. Go get your guy. Do your thing. But how many "sure thing" quarterbacks have we seen fail in the past decade? If Cousins was so easy to replace, he would've been replaced a long time ago. Fair?

See above. We don't even try, we just settle for 2nd best. If you want to be best, you have to keep trying new things when the old ones aren't working.

That's where most of us differ in opinion. We can all see that Cousins isn't 25 anymore and his time is coming to an end. We know he's not the future. We also know there isn't a window anymore. However, there is something to be said about developing a young QB. Unless he's an Andrew Luck or Caleb Williams, you're taking a big risk. It's that simple. My opinion is that you let him sit and learn from a good, veteran quarterback for a year or two if you have one on the roster.

Yah we been through that with Zimmer. You don't want to take risks, continuity and all that. You have to take risks. What would it have mattered if we tried out 6 different rookies the last 5 years and didn't go far in the playoffs? Isn't that what we accomplished anyway? Helllloooooooooooo lol?

Yeah, most teams go through quarterbacks like stores went through toilet paper in 2020, but if you have a franchise quarterback who a QBOTF can learn from, why not use that advantage? Every little advantage is crucial when it comes to football, especially playing the quarterback position. I'm not saying Love turns into anything special; heck, I hope he doesn't. But I like GB's approach. Love recently spoke about all that he learned from Rodgers about being a true professional - what it takes on a daily basis as far as preparation. That's not nothing. How do you measure that? I don't know. But again, we see a lot of "sure thing" quarterbacks and "freak athletes" who completely fizzle out in the NFL. Why? And how do we know a true leader/mentor couldn't have made a difference?

There are no sure things. That's your strawman, not mine. (Well other than Sloter, he was a sure thing lol). If we had a healthy Aaron Rodgers on our team, I'd be fine with rookies sitting behind him. Because (drumroll...suspense...distant bells...sound of wind whistling through the trees...)....because THATS the kind of QB we (that is, some of us) want to have!

I hear it all of the time. This is a new generation. They do things differently. They need this. They need that. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but it should be considered. And, also, it's laughable that you don't think Cousins has anything to offer. Are you joking? Again, how about the work ethic and preparation it takes a 4th-round quarterback to remain a starter in this league for a decade? That's not nothing. What about his body work that he does to stay on the field? Again, that's not nothing. He recently said he wished he had started doing that stuff when he was a lot younger, like Herbert, for example. These things aren't nothing. Hate on Cousins all you want, but he never had the benefit of being a first-rounder with a million chances. He made the most out of the opportunity he was given, and he hasn't looked back. Good for him.

That's a really good point, Kirk IS in fantastic shape and incredibly durable. A young QB definitely could learn from that aspect of Kirk's game. I would be thrilled if Kirk was promoted to QB conditioning coach. Hopefully before he loses all trade value, if he hasn't already.

As a "team game" proponent, I hate all quarterback contracts, so, there won't be an argument from me about that. But Cousins isn't the reason this team has failed in the past several years. Part of the issue? Sure.

See, we agree after all. Get rid of Kirk and everyone else who isn't up to the caliber we need to build our dynasty. :-*

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 21:19:56 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Funkytown on Oct 2, 2023 21:19:56 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 19:42:48 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Seems to imply people are oversimplifying the wins and losses down to what the QB does and only that. Something that I have never once read anywhere on the internet. Ironically a gross oversimplification of the argument, but I know you would never post something like that, because you are so down the middle. *thumb_up*

Triggered much? Hey man, if the shoe fits!

Weird that you're unfamiliar with the oversimplification that is "QB winz". It literally trends all. the. time. We see it regularly when discussing what makes a good/great quarterback, postseason success, etc.

Here is one from a week ago:

I also posted a three-part article a year or so ago - The Great Eight Debate: Are Wins a QB Stat?

But you've never read any of these things anywhere on the internet? Okay then, lol...

Some more examples:

Need I go on? Or do you believe it's on the internet now?

My point stands: QB Winz vs. team game takes center stage at nearly every KC debate. Fair enough. It's the extremists on both sides that make things crazy.

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 21:30:00 GMT -6 by Funkytown

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 2, 2023 21:34:46 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Oct 2, 2023 21:34:46 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 21:19:56 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Oct 2, 2023 19:42:48 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Seems to imply people are oversimplifying the wins and losses down to what the QB does and only that. Something that I have never once read anywhere on the internet. Ironically a gross oversimplification of the argument, but I know you would never post something like that, because you are so down the middle. *thumb_up*

Triggered much? Hey man, if the shoe fits!

Weird that you're unfamiliar with the oversimplification that is "QB winz". It literally trends all. the. time. We see it regularly when discussing what makes a good/great quarterback, postseason success, etc.

Here is one from a week ago:

I also posted a three-part article a year or so ago - The Great Eight Debate: Are Wins a QB Stat?

But you've never read any of these things anywhere on the internet? Okay then, lol...

Some more examples:

Need I go on? Or do you believe it's on the internet now?

My point stands: QB Winz vs. team game takes center stage at nearly every KC debate. Fair enough. It's the extremists on both sides that make things crazy.

Kirk has the same number of wins as Joe Burrow this year. And has played better

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 3, 2023 3:22:21 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Oct 3, 2023 3:22:21 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 19:42:48 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The normal, non-fan take on Cousins is that he is an average QB that you probably don't want to be QBing your team unless there are no other options. It is only here in MN when people's love of their team comes into play that you find anything different.

Name a QB that is above average other than Mahomes. And, no, Allen is not. Because if he was, the Bills would have won a Super Bowl by now. He's in his 5th year.

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Extend Cousins or ... ? Oct 3, 2023 4:44:24 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Oct 3, 2023 4:44:24 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2023 21:19:56 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Triggered much? Hey man, if the shoe fits!

Who said winning and losing can only be on the QB? Where in this thread or anywhere on the internet has that ever been uttered?

Maybe it is more complex than that?

You clearly have some sense of the QB's importance in winning when you said "Kirk is the only reason this team stayed afloat". That was you right?

If it helps, I don't think Kirk has a dramatic effect on the team's wins or losses outside of what his massive salary does to the team around him. He is just a guy along for the ride, which isn't good enough.