Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason

kirko8
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by kirko8 on Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6

1) Kwesi's first choice was not KOC so we cannot give him too much credit for KOC working out although we have no idea what he thought of other candidates other than Harbough who was his first choice (and we don't know if Harbaugh does better than KOC)

2) Kwesi's non-draft trade and pick ups were excellent (for the most part). Tonga and Shelly were excellent pick ups. The trade for Hockenson was excellent (maybe the Lions GM who he is friendly with wanted to help him after the draft debacle or maybe he fleeced him whatever I give Kwesi top grades). The only thing that drops him a tiny bit here is not signing Linval and/or Suh. The Eagles run defense has gone improved from something like 30 to 15 since these signings. Both those guys were begging us to sign him surprising he didn't get a least one we got lucky with Tonga.

3) Yes I realize you need to wait 3 years before you can know if a draft was a bust or at least that is "conventional wisdom" but you can tell certain things that will let you know your draft was a debacle during year one. There are quality starters all around the NFL playing right now that Kwesi passed on and he could have drafted from where we were even after the trades let alone before the trades.

You need a draft to replenish a team's future as well as with a few picks especially top picks to start or be key backups at worse. Rick did a pretty good job the last few years he did quite a bit to replenish and get starters (and yes he had some busts that's normal).

You want to draft a S why not draft Hamilton that is the best S and was seen by some as top 5 or even a possible number 1 pick. But to pass on Hamilton and take a lesser S Cine (who plays in a different defence then you run) AND give a Division Opponent one of the best IF not the best WR in the draft is NOT worth it that's really dumb UNLESS you get a haul back say a #1 pick next year minimum which he didn't.

Ravens have a history of drafting well and they jumped on Hamilton then traded back into the draft and got C (a position of need for the Vikings even if Bradbury is okay this year which he still was not despite what people say you don't pay a lot of money for a player like him when his deal is up the following year you want a rookie contract C. which Ravens got. So there is an example of staying where you are trading UP and getting 2 positions filled for years and getting 2 players who will help your team this year.

Another thing Kwesi could have done similar to the Ravens approach trade UP to grab an elite WR (the guy the Jets drafted) or elite CB (the guy the Jets drafted) in that case you give up a lot but you come up with a day 1 starter in a position of need (the higher you are drafting the less likely the bust). See Hamilton vs Cine.

The problem with Cine he doesn't fit the scheme and he did not play well at all he could not even be a back up let alone starter. He could not beat out Josh. There is something else your #1 draft pick should NEVER be playing on ST. The chance of an injury on ST is too great for your top players to play there but again he was so bad they wanted to have him play somewhere and they risked him on ST. If he was starter or back up quality he would have never been on ST.

The problem with Booth is again you gave your Division opponent exactly what they need a very good WR - Watson is far from a bust he was called after Game 1 - he is a key player on the team even has a 40 yard run for a TD. You helped the Pack when you didn't have to because Booth was NOT worth the pick. NEVER draft injury prone players. A few teams passed on him due to injuries they were smart we were not. I have no problem if someone is falling to draft them say Booth fell to 3rd round 4th round etc... but you don't draft him at that spot AND again give your Division Rival a starting player (WR at position of need). Like Cine Booth absolutely sucked out there Shelly was better than him and then the oft injured Booth got injured again.

So these top 2 picks really hurt this team in 2 ways they are not very good players and might never be due to talent and/or health issues AND you gave division opponents very good if not great starting players. When they say don't trade in the division it applies to helping out a team. The Hockenson trade is an example DET gave us a starter for future draft picks that is a dumb move on Detroit's part. Detroit failed okay get rid of Hockenson but take less to get him out of the Divison even out of the Conference.

I wouldn't even care as much about the draft day trades if he had done it out of the division and really out of the conference take less! Because if worst case scenario happens and your picks bust your helping someone you play 2 times or could play in playoffs and 1 time a season and hurting yourself. EVEN if both guys are day 1 starters it is stil break even because they got 2 day 1 starters too. Make no sense. This is an example of someone outsmarting themselves. Sometimes you put aside analytics for common sense.

As for the rest of the draft: they played Ingram all year he didn't play well a lot of lineman do play well in the first year you wonder if they played him because they needed to make that draft look bettter... if he plays like this next year he is a bust. He is not good enough to be a starting Guard for a good to great NFL team. He is not playing where he was picked level and OL picked lower are playing better.

Evans looked ok as a backup unfortunate he has concussion issue. Asamoah is fast but is pretty lost out there looks like backup too. With the WR issues not sure why Nailor not given a chance unless he looks bad. The saviour of this draft class might be Ty Chandler if he can be starter. But we could have had some of these players and Hamilton and one of the non-injury prone CBs AND most important 2 of our division rivals would be weaker not stronger.

Anyway, I am very worried about his next draft. He is smart but some smart people do not learn from their mistakes but repeat them.

Last Edit: Dec 30, 2022 14:54:08 GMT -6 by kirko8

Krauser
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 30, 2022 18:08:41 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 3 more like this

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Post by Krauser on Dec 30, 2022 18:08:41 GMT -6

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Harbough who was his first choice

In your imagination?

Harbaugh reportedly wanted the Vikings job but acted like it was his for the taking. The Vikings interviewed him and several others (the finalists were O'Connell, Harbaugh, Raheem Morris and Patrick Graham) but never made him an offer. Here's a long well-reported article on the process: theathletic.com/3108906/2022/02/03/from-jim-harbaugh-to-kevin-oconnell-an-inside-look-at-a-shocking-day-amid-the-vikings-coaching-search/

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

You want to draft a S why not draft Hamilton that is the best S and was seen by some as top 5 or even a possible number 1 pick. But to pass on Hamilton and take a lesser S Cine (who plays in a different defence then you run)

Hamilton isn't even playing FS for the Ravens. They tried him in deep coverage at the beginning of the year and he was a disaster (especially in the Dolphins comeback win). Hamilton's been playing mostly on. 3rd downs and in passing situations, as a slot/apex defender, more of a SS/LB hybrid. Closest fit to that role in the Vikings scheme would be Chandon Sullivan's position.

Cine did play in a similar 2-high scheme at Georgia, and was considered a perfect scheme fit for the Vikings by people who know what they're talking about. Here's Arif: theathletic.com/3298768/2022/05/09/lewis-cine-vikings-film-breakdown/

It’s notable that the Georgia defense often started many of its defensive looks in a two-high shell — or two safeties deep — often signaling Cover 2 or Cover 4 on the back end. But it would transition to a number of looks out of that, including single-high looks with either three or one deep zone as well as mixed coverages.

That’s important because something like that will be the expectation for the defense run by Vikings defensive coordinator Ed Donatell. He comes from a lineage that showed more two-high looks than any other school of defense in the NFL. The Vikings will likely continue that tradition and show two-high looks before transitioning into other defenses after the snap.

Commitment to that defensive ideology requires an athletic baseline at safety that most teams don’t have. From that two-high spot, both safeties on the field need to be able to either get deep or to the line of scrimmage quickly to fulfill their various responsibilities from play to play. Cine clearly has that capability.

And a typical pre-snap 2-high look for the Bulldogs:

...note that Cine is lined up 12 yards deep -- because he has the speed to play deep coverage from this position -- not 20-25 yards deep where Bynum typically is.

I think Cine would've been starting by now for the Vikings if it not for his injury.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

There is something else your #1 draft pick should NEVER be playing on ST. The chance of an injury on ST is too great for your top players to play there but again he was so bad they wanted to have him play somewhere and they risked him on ST. If he was starter or back up quality he would have never been on ST.

A lot of rookies play special teams, even first round picks.

Rookies with more special teams snaps than Cine's 34 snaps, before his injury: Kyle Hamilton (246 snaps -- over half as many as his 438 snaps on defense), Daxton Hill, Jermaine Johnson, Quay Walker, Sauce Gardner, Nakobe Dean, Isiah Pacheco, Troy Andersen, Martin Emerson, Devin Lloyd, etc. The Lions are even reportedly planning to use Jameson Williams as a gunner, but that hasn't happened yet.

It's just a very common part of the game. It was bad luck Cine ended up breaking his leg on a sketchy turf field in London, but it's nothing more than that.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

traded back into the draft and got C (a position of need for the Vikings even if Bradbury is okay this year which he still was not despite what people say you don't pay a lot of money for a player like him when his deal is up the following year you want a rookie contract C. which Ravens got.

The Ravens traded away their WR1 for the pick they used on Linderbaum. Who would the Vikings have traded to get a pick in the first round?

KJ Osborn has more receiving yards than any of the Ravens WRs. You sure that was a smart trade?

Linderbaum's pass blocking this year has been every bit as bad as Bradbury's was in his rookie season, for similar reasons (he's small).

Bradbury has actually played well this year.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

He is not good enough to be a starting Guard for a good to great NFL team. He is not playing where he was picked level and OL picked lower are playing better.

Ingram's playing about as well as Zion Johnson, who was drafted in the 1st round and is starting for the Chargers, who are going to the playoffs.

He's been better than Cole Strange, who was drafted in the 1st round by the Patriots, who are still in the mix for the playoffs.

He's been better than Kenyon Green, who was a 1st round pick, and Luke Goedeke, who was drafted before him in the 2nd and started for the Bucs for the first half of the year.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Asamoah is fast but is pretty lost out there looks like backup too.

Asamoah's played quite a bit the last few games and I haven't noticed him looking lost.

There was one snap at the end of the Bears game (in his first appearance in a regular season game on defense) where Asamoah was late to react to a checkdown and missed the tackle in space. One of the Vikings media guys said he "looked lost". And that's been repeated by fans ever since.

But he's actually showing good awareness of his coverage and gap responsibilities in the last 3 game when he's been playing more. He is undersized but he's been able to fight off OL blocks at least some of the time. And he's very quick and explosive, credited for one forced fumble and maybe should've had 2 (the Pittman fumble in the Colts game that was blown dead for forward progress).

I think he'll be starting next year.

Last Edit: Dec 30, 2022 18:09:56 GMT -6 by Krauser

kirko8
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 31, 2022 0:29:32 GMT -6

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Post by kirko8 on Dec 31, 2022 0:29:32 GMT -6

Reports indicated Kwesi was behind bringing Harbaugh in you can google it.

Sullivan is terrible I'd take Hamilton over him. An S/LB type would be a good fit given our LBs. Look again on Asamoah even on that great play he was beaten.

You can nitpick my points and you might be right. But there were lots of players starting in the NFL or backing up in the NFL we could have taken at 13 and NOT given DET a very good WR likewise, we could have taken any number of rookie starters and back ups and NOT given GB a very good WR.

We all talk about Spielman's misses but he did hit on a lot of players. I remember Denny despite misses hitting on a lot.

I can accept misses but NOT giving other teams in our division high picks and hoping they miss while we miss that is just dumb and brutal. The Hockenson trade was dumb for DET because they are taking a chance on picks while we get a proven Pro Bowler who is young. Honestly there is such a thing as outsmarting yourself. Cine and Booth both looked terrible and couldn't even be back up #1s let alone start. And Booth is injury prone.

Just use simple logic and it's hard to screw up first round picks. The problem with picks like these is they leave you the same gaps in the future. This team really needs so much. Sullivan has to go if Hamilton replaces him great and if we took a non injury plagued CB that's another spot fixed so we don't have to draft a CB next draft. We have holes at S and CB again cause we can't count on Cine or Booth they were brought in to fix the D this year. Also, if you pick at 13 whoever you get is likely to not bust the lower you go the greater the bust chance.

You have to play off quality vs quantity I would never give up 1 2 3 (unless for a young proven Pro Bowler) I have no problem trading a 4 for two 5s. BUT NEVER WITHIN THE DIVISION unless you are doing the fleecing like we did with DET.

Danchat
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 31, 2022 0:43:44 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Danchat on Dec 31, 2022 0:43:44 GMT -6

Dec 31, 2022 0:29:32 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Reports indicated Kwesi was behind bringing Harbaugh in you can google it.

Kwesi is the reason why Harbaugh got a chance at an interview, but it was reported that they were very confident after O'Connell's second interview, and it was his job to lose. Perhaps Jim was KAM's #1 candidate, but he wasn't for Wilfs & Co who were in charge of the HC search. You shouldn't consider O'Connell to be solely KAM's hire because it was ultimately the search team's decision, KAM joined that team part of the way through and suggested Harbaugh and Patrick Graham as HC options, but he was not the lead guy (apparently that was COO Andrew Miller).

On Hamilton, the Vikings could certainly use him right now, but I find it questionable to spend the #12 pick on a LB/S who plays 50% of the snaps. Of course, the alternative of moving down 20 picks for a severe discount was a bad idea, I'm not giving them a pass on that one at all. I don't blame anyone for his injury, it was a fluke thing and guys sometimes get hurt playing ST, it happens.

Last Edit: Dec 31, 2022 0:44:21 GMT -6 by Danchat

dauntessmallhands
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 31, 2022 1:41:57 GMT -6

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Post by dauntessmallhands on Dec 31, 2022 1:41:57 GMT -6

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

we got lucky with Tonga.

why is it luck when he makes a good move and not bad luck when he makes a bad one? Tonga wasn't luck. He found a good player on the cheap.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

Rick did a pretty good job the last few years he did quite a bit to replenish and get starters (and yes he had some busts that's normal).

Boy I really have to squint my eyes to see that one. He completely whiffed A LOT imo. A big part of the reason this team is depth starved is because of his inability to get at least serviceable players on the 2nd and 3rd day. 2020 was probably his best work in that regard for some time. And then he went right back to boom or bust for 2021.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

a lot of lineman do play well in the first year

this has been a bit of a misstep by the FO in that he probably shouldn't be starting. It's kind of odd that they haven't given Reed a single snap. And while some do well, a lot don't, and in their first year, they rarely play as much as Ingram has.

Dec 30, 2022 14:51:27 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

AND most important 2 of our division rivals would be weaker not stronger.

that's not really a fair assumption. We have no idea who else they take instead. We might have Trent McDuffie or Kenyon Green or Jordan Davis. Green Bay may have still traded up for Watson or Detroit might have hit home runs on the picks they gave up. Could the vikings have gotten more in the Det trade? Arguably. But it's way presumptive to assume we made both of those teams better.

And I just want to make one more comment on Asamoah. There are plenty of very good LBers that are about his size. Not saying he'll become either one of these guys, but two of the best in Warner and Greemlaw play right next to each other on the best defense in football and they outweigh him by about 3 lbs each.

dauntessmallhands
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 31, 2022 1:56:59 GMT -6

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Post by dauntessmallhands on Dec 31, 2022 1:56:59 GMT -6

Dec 31, 2022 0:29:32 GMT -6 kirko8 said:

they were brought in to fix the D this year

no they weren't. they're draft picks that need some development and they'd both be getting a lot more PT (just like you're asking for of them) if not for injury.

stout93
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Thoughts on the initial roster, and Kwesi's first offseason Dec 31, 2022 9:20:30 GMT -6

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Post by stout93 on Dec 31, 2022 9:20:30 GMT -6