Top Tier QB's

mngopher35
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Top Tier QB's May 11, 2022 18:51:21 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on May 11, 2022 18:51:21 GMT -6

May 11, 2022 17:32:46 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

May 11, 2022 9:14:19 GMT -6 mngopher35 said:

The issue is we have been sold that bringing him in was to take the next step/be a legitimate super bowl contender. Not have an extremely outside chance of winning, we were making the NFC championship game the year before he got here. We have repeatedly overpaid without him living up to it and the team success falling off big since. If we go 8-9 like you say it was still a wasted opportunity to clear cap space, get extra draft capital, youth movement etc. and we just wasted year #5 since this experiment began. That isn't all on Kwesi but it's a very long time for a franchise to seemingly be content with mediocrity and he chose to take a similar approach himself.

then what's another year. We wasted a chance to do what? go 6-11 and roll the dice on our next franchise QB in the 2023 draft? Assuming they get that right, see you in 3 more years before we start winning again. Assuming they're wrong then they reset the cap after this year, get some draft capital, reset the cap in 2024 and we're a year behind going after that QBOTF crapshoot in the draft.

For me, that's a big whoopty doo. I've been watching them bungle this up for 40 years. What's one more? I wasn't convinced Cousins was the right guy for Zimmer from day 1. I'm actually more convinced that KOC has a better chance to get something out of him that Zimmer couldn't. I thought the way they handled kirk and his contacts the last 4 years and it's impact on the cap was stupid. This year it'll be about the least obtrusive it's been and next year even better. If people got duped into thinking it was going to work then I don't know what to say.

There's a difference between being optimistic and being blind to reality. I have more hope for this season than any of the past four. Do I think we're gonna win a super bowl? probably not. But I have to say that my level of optimism for finding our QBOTF and turning the team into a winner over the next 3 years post Kirk is probably less than what I feel is a chance for the team to actually win something with kirk. The former is just really really hard. Something that every bad team is constantly struggling with. Something that this franchise has never really been able to do.

You can follow the template of what has worked in the past for some teams more often but it's not like there are any guarantees. What is guaranteed is that you can't win if you don't make the playoffs.

And so my feeling is, what if the new crew is right. What if there is more blood to get from this turnip? Every option is what if. I'll take the one that's closer to something I can enjoy than not.

Well we don't know it's another year, it looks like two given contracts handed out. I also wouldn't be overly surprised at this point if the new regime is scapegoated after those two years are up and he gets an extension lol. It's a similar problem as if we had kept Zimmer or Rick basically, we are just wasting time (and in this case extra resources to help build up a better team).

We were one game away from the SB and people were all claiming a better QB could get us there. Everyone was being sold on that idea very clearly we could get there that was the entire point of bringing him in lol. Those are the expectations and if you don't believe they should be then there is no point in defending going this route. I don't get how you think fans were duped into believing Cousins could get a NFC championship game team lead by Keenum over the hump while also defending keeping Cousins haha. It makes no sense unless you are just content with mediocrity.

As I said I agree they can get more out of him but that has to do with how little we have done since he got here. The real question is are they legitimately going to compete for a super bowl? If they are right then that is awesome and congrats, they truly were smarter than most out there. Choosing to triple down on this approach means that they get the blame if not though. Hopefully they are smart enough to realize the mistake after one year but the decisions this year aren't promising in that regard.

I have been a fan a long time as well but I don't think that just because we haven't won in the past means we should just let bad decisions slide now. I actually care about this team and hope they do win one day despite the history. So the issue with any amount of time, let alone 5 or 6 years (unless they extend again), is he can't get us there. That's always been the main issue with Kirk, especially given the money he gets.

Last Edit: May 11, 2022 19:03:03 GMT -6 by mngopher35

Purple Pain
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Top Tier QB's May 12, 2022 10:08:03 GMT -6

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Post by Purple Pain on May 12, 2022 10:08:03 GMT -6

Guess who PFF's most underrated player is for the Vikings?

Guess!!!

MINNESOTA VIKINGS: QB KIRK COUSINS
By virtually any measure, Cousins has vastly outperformed any reasonable expectations the Vikings could have had for him when they signed him from Washington. He has been a consistent top-10 quarterback over that time and seems to be slowly improving with each passing season. This has tracked, unfortunately for him, with the Vikings falling away from contention as a real threat to win a Super Bowl, and so Cousins doesn’t get the respect his play deserves. He may never be one of the game’s truly elite passers, but he’s right at the top of the next tier, and most of the arguments thrown at him don’t hold up tremendously well to deep scrutiny. Over the past three seasons, including the playoffs, Cousins carries a 90.5 PFF passing grade — tied for fifth in the league.

Link:

www.pff.com/news/nfl-most-underrated-player-32-nfl-teams-2022

Reignman
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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 11:50:04 GMT -6

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Post by Reignman on May 13, 2022 11:50:04 GMT -6

Kirk is in the "you can win with them" category?? Based on what? Maybe if the goal is to win 8-9 games. If the goal is to win a championship then he's definitely just a placeholder. The "proven winner" category must be based on just 1 season, then Ryan and Watson fit, maybe, and Kirk wouldn't. Watson is still a stretch because he hasn't really done more than Cousins. He only has one 11 win season, and one playoff win, and he's barely above .500 at 28-25. Him and Cousins are definitely winners in the negotiating room however.

May 7, 2022 22:56:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Keep believing it's Brady. How is it that New Englands Defense was better than Tampa's the last 2 years? I thought it was Brady making that defense better?

Wait, weren't you the guy always saying it was the Patriots D that won all those Super Bowls and not Tom Brady? Then why didn't the Patriots win the Super Bowl these past 2 years without Tom, despite having the better D? *whistle*

May 7, 2022 1:37:47 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Sloter could do what Dilfer did. amirite Reignman?

To be fair, anyone could do what Dilfer did. The eventual 2022 USFL MVP would probably do it better though. *thumb_up*

May 8, 2022 11:21:40 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

So how does a QB make the defene better? You can't have it both ways.

Looks like this has been answered 52 times over, including by myself in so many other threads, but the bottom line is, a good QB helps a defense in terms of time of possession, limiting how many opportunities the opposing offense gets to move the ball against them, but a good defense doesn't necessarily help a QB because the QB still has to go out there and make plays. For example, if a good defense keeps the opposing offense off the field giving their own QB more opportunities, the QB could still throw 30 INT's, go 3-n-out a lot, and have a low rating.

May 8, 2022 17:17:42 GMT -6 Danchat said:

A great QB will usually make his defense better (less turnovers, taking up time of possession) and a great defense can make the offense look better (giving their offense more chances, generating turnovers and short fields).

Exactly, a great QB will automatically help the defense based on all the things you've mentioned. Emphasis on "help" because the defense could still be bad, but it would have been worse had their QB not kept them off the field. A great defense giving a QB more opportunities, doesn't automatically make him better because if he's a bad QB then he just gets more opportunities to be bad lol.

May 11, 2022 0:47:05 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

amen to this. There are plenty of Cousins types who have won a SB or at least helped the team to a deep playoff run. I'd rather have a slim chance at winning a super bowl and end up 8-9 than go 6-11 and have no shot at the playoffs whatsoever. What is that? Like three draft spots?

Sure, a slim chance is better than none, but what if slim is holding your team back from trying to find something better? Why are we content with slim? You don't have to settle for slim. I'd rather roll the dice and try to find something better than slim. That could mean you end up with something worse, but do we have faith in management finding the right players or not? If we have faith, then why wouldn't you want them rolling the dice? If you're content with slim then your fear tells me you don't have faith.

May 12, 2022 10:08:03 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Guess who PFF's most underrated player is for the Vikings?

Well you have to be disappointing to be underrated don't you? *whistle*

And no, Cousins isn't underrated, he's exactly where he should be until he proves otherwise. He's done jack squat in his career where it matters.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 14:33:55 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on May 13, 2022 14:33:55 GMT -6

May 12, 2022 10:08:03 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Guess who PFF's most underrated player is for the Vikings?

Guess!!!

MINNESOTA VIKINGS: QB KIRK COUSINS
By virtually any measure, Cousins has vastly outperformed any reasonable expectations the Vikings could have had for him when they signed him from Washington. He has been a consistent top-10 quarterback over that time and seems to be slowly improving with each passing season. This has tracked, unfortunately for him, with the Vikings falling away from contention as a real threat to win a Super Bowl, and so Cousins doesn’t get the respect his play deserves. He may never be one of the game’s truly elite passers, but he’s right at the top of the next tier, and most of the arguments thrown at him don’t hold up tremendously well to deep scrutiny. Over the past three seasons, including the playoffs, Cousins carries a 90.5 PFF passing grade — tied for fifth in the league.

Link:

www.pff.com/news/nfl-most-underrated-player-32-nfl-teams-2022

Some of the article is complete BS. Cousins isn't a consistent top 10 QB, he is top 12 and he hasn't vastly outperformed in any meaningful way outside of outperforming his ability to get the team to pay him lots of guaranteed money.

However, it is tough to argue for any other player on the team being underrated. Most of the Viking's players are either on their downside of their careers and likely overrated (Kendricks, Smith,Smith, PP, Cook, Thielen), don't matter, or are highly regarded and tough to argue they are underrated (JJ and Hunter).

So by default, Kirk Cousins gets to be underrated as one of the few starting QBs presumed to be available this offseason no team even attempted to trade for.

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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 14:42:22 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on May 13, 2022 14:42:22 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 11:50:04 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Kirk is in the "you can win with them" category?? Based on what? Maybe if the goal is to win 8-9 games. If the goal is to win a championship then he's definitely just a placeholder. The "proven winner" category must be based on just 1 season, then Ryan and Watson fit, maybe, and Kirk wouldn't. Watson is still a stretch because he hasn't really done more than Cousins. He only has one 11 win season, and one playoff win, and he's barely above .500 at 28-25. Him and Cousins are definitely winners in the negotiating room however.

May 7, 2022 22:56:09 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Keep believing it's Brady. How is it that New Englands Defense was better than Tampa's the last 2 years? I thought it was Brady making that defense better?

Wait, weren't you the guy always saying it was the Patriots D that won all those Super Bowls and not Tom Brady? Then why didn't the Patriots win the Super Bowl these past 2 years without Tom, despite having the better D? *whistle*

May 7, 2022 1:37:47 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Sloter could do what Dilfer did. amirite Reignman ?

To be fair, anyone could do what Dilfer did. The eventual 2022 USFL MVP would probably do it better though. *thumb_up*

May 8, 2022 11:21:40 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

So how does a QB make the defene better? You can't have it both ways.

Looks like this has been answered 52 times over, including by myself in so many other threads, but the bottom line is, a good QB helps a defense in terms of time of possession, limiting how many opportunities the opposing offense gets to move the ball against them, but a good defense doesn't necessarily help a QB because the QB still has to go out there and make plays. For example, if a good defense keeps the opposing offense off the field giving their own QB more opportunities, the QB could still throw 30 INT's, go 3-n-out a lot, and have a low rating.

May 8, 2022 17:17:42 GMT -6 Danchat said:

A great QB will usually make his defense better (less turnovers, taking up time of possession) and a great defense can make the offense look better (giving their offense more chances, generating turnovers and short fields).

Exactly, a great QB will automatically help the defense based on all the things you've mentioned. Emphasis on "help" because the defense could still be bad, but it would have been worse had their QB not kept them off the field. A great defense giving a QB more opportunities, doesn't automatically make him better because if he's a bad QB then he just gets more opportunities to be bad lol.

May 11, 2022 0:47:05 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

amen to this. There are plenty of Cousins types who have won a SB or at least helped the team to a deep playoff run. I'd rather have a slim chance at winning a super bowl and end up 8-9 than go 6-11 and have no shot at the playoffs whatsoever. What is that? Like three draft spots?

Sure, a slim chance is better than none, but what if slim is holding your team back from trying to find something better? Why are we content with slim? You don't have to settle for slim. I'd rather roll the dice and try to find something better than slim. That could mean you end up with something worse, but do we have faith in management finding the right players or not? If we have faith, then why wouldn't you want them rolling the dice? If you're content with slim then your fear tells me you don't have faith.

May 12, 2022 10:08:03 GMT -6 Purple Pain said:

Guess who PFF's most underrated player is for the Vikings?

Well you have to be disappointing to be underrated don't you? *whistle*

And no, Cousins isn't underrated, he's exactly where he should be until he proves otherwise. He's done jack squat in his career where it matters.

The time of possesion story is not backed up by the data with New England. Only about 8 times in the last 18 years did they win the TOP during the year. Many times they were below 30:00 or right at 30 minutes.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

whoskmoon Content Creator Posts: 8,860 Likes: 7,213	Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 14:52:32 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by whoskmoon on May 13, 2022 14:52:32 GMT -6 May 13, 2022 14:42:22 GMT -6 Raptorman said: The time of possesion story is not backed up by the data with New England. Pretty sure the data backs up that teams will score more points the more chances they have to score.

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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 15:04:50 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on May 13, 2022 15:04:50 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 14:33:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

So by default, Kirk Cousins gets to be underrated as one of the few starting QBs presumed to be available this offseason no team even attempted to trade for.

Well, we do have to rely on rumors to determine whether that is true or not (it sounded like the Browns and Colts had offers on the table, while the Panthers didn't and the Broncos never considered him) and then the rumors that the Wilfs weren't going to let KAM trade him unless they landed someone on par with Watson or Wilson... it's hard to say conclusively whether that is true. It is true that no NFL team views him as highly as PFF or the Vikings would have gotten packages with 1st rounders plus more.

As for an underrated player, I'd say Armon Watts since most people don't know who he is and he filled in the old Tom Johnson role rather well. He doesn't have a clear fitting spot in the 3-4 defense, but if they go 4 DL in nickel packages, he'll do fine as the 3T.

Last Edit: May 13, 2022 15:06:39 GMT -6 by Danchat

Raptorman
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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 16:21:13 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on May 13, 2022 16:21:13 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 14:52:32 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

May 13, 2022 14:42:22 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

The time of possesion story is not backed up by the data with New England.

Pretty sure the data backs up that teams will score more points the more chances they have to score.

Yet the time of possesion argument is just the oppisite. It's saying that the they are holding on to the ball longer. And, each team can, at the most, possess the ball only 17 times more than the teams they play during the season. And only have one more possession each game.

You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, you are harmless.

dauntessmallhands
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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 18:50:09 GMT -6 Reignman and vikingpwr like this

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Post by dauntessmallhands on May 13, 2022 18:50:09 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 11:50:04 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Sure, a slim chance is better than none, but what if slim is holding your team back from trying to find something better? Why are we content with slim? You don't have to settle for slim. I'd rather roll the dice and try to find something better than slim. That could mean you end up with something worse, but do we have faith in management finding the right players or not? If we have faith, then why wouldn't you want them rolling the dice? If you're content with slim then your fear tells me you don't have faith.

you had to know the obvious counter to what you're saying when writing this. If you have faith in management then why not have faith in what they're doing now. That they believe they can make Kirk better. That they believe they can make the rest of the roster better. That they believe that adding a few pieces will improve the team.

and my ultimate point is what are they being held back from. Losing for three years? for five years? for ten years if they whiff on the right QB?

I have faith that what they're doing now might work. I have faith that if they move in a different direction next year they can do so and be no worse for wear. Show a little optimism even if they're not doing it the way you'd have done it.

And you can always lose. You can always 'rebuild'. I'll give the new guys a shot or two at what they think might work before that. And whether it does or not, we can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya for the next half decade or decade or two decades as we watch the inevitable. Which is what every franchise does. Pray and pray that they can get that franchise altering QB. With the first pick or the 10th pick or the 40th pick.

How many franchise altering QB's have we drafted and developed? Even though the one we have now isn't, I'll take the bird in the hand for the next year or two.

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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 20:22:17 GMT -6 mngopher35 likes this

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Post by Reignman on May 13, 2022 20:22:17 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 18:50:09 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

How many franchise altering QB's have we drafted and developed? Even though the one we have now isn't, I'll take the bird in the hand for the next year or two.

I'm at a stage in my fanaticism where there's no distinction between 4-13 and 9-8 lol. If you're never going to win a championship with Mr. 9-8, then why waste your time? Eventually he's going to retire and you're going to have to look for the next QB anyway, so why not get a head start on that now? I'd rather be sitting at 5-12 knowing my team is at least trying to do something and maybe working toward a championship, than see it waste away at 9-8, believing it's content with mediocrity. It's hard to have faith in them knowing they think they can fix Kirk and even come close to sniffing a championship with him. If they can't figure out something that obvious by now, I can only wonder what else they might be getting wrong. Based on this offseason, it seems like they're getting a lot wrong. The no trade clause for example, Harbaugh, Mannion, Bradbury, the 1st round trade with Detroit, just to name a few.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

dauntessmallhands
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Top Tier QB's May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 vikingpwr likes this

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Post by dauntessmallhands on May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 20:22:17 GMT -6 Reignman said:

May 13, 2022 18:50:09 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

How many franchise altering QB's have we drafted and developed? Even though the one we have now isn't, I'll take the bird in the hand for the next year or two.

I'm at a stage in my fanaticism where there's no distinction between 4-13 and 9-8 lol. If you're never going to win a championship with Mr. 9-8, then why waste your time? Eventually he's going to retire and you're going to have to look for the next QB anyway, so why not get a head start on that now? I'd rather be sitting at 5-12 knowing my team is at least trying to do something and maybe working toward a championship, than see it waste away at 9-8, believing it's content with mediocrity. It's hard to have faith in them knowing they think they can fix Kirk and even come close to sniffing a championship with him. If they can't figure out something that obvious by now, I can only wonder what else they might be getting wrong. Based on this offseason, it seems like they're getting a lot wrong. The no trade clause for example, Harbaugh, Mannion, Bradbury, the 1st round trade with Detroit, just to name a few.

why do you not have to have Cousins to get the next guy? You talked about having faith and then you talk about going 9-8 as if it's a foregone conclusion. Have some faith. Getting to the playoffs is never a waste of time. The Bengals were 10-7 last year and went to the super bowl. Check out their stud QB's performance in the second half of the playoff games and in particular the 4th quarter. They're not trying to fix kirk. No one is going to turn him into Aaron Rodgers. They're trying to optimize his ability. Big difference and something Zimmer wasn't able to do because he was too pigheaded. It's seems like they're getting a lot wrong? Based on what? You don't even know how this is going to go and I don't either. Your assumptions are based on your PTSD from years of failure. No one can help us with that. If you want to assume that none of what they're doing is going to work because you think it's the same then go ahead. I'll choose to give them a chance. The odds are that you'll be right but why would I want to live like that. I'm gonna try to find joy in this. Not look for reasons to allow for misery. But you do you.

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Top Tier QB's May 14, 2022 6:31:00 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by whoskmoon on May 14, 2022 6:31:00 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 15:04:50 GMT -6 Danchat said:

May 13, 2022 14:33:55 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

So by default, Kirk Cousins gets to be underrated as one of the few starting QBs presumed to be available this offseason no team even attempted to trade for.

Well, we do have to rely on rumors to determine whether that is true or not (it sounded like the Browns and Colts had offers on the table, while the Panthers didn't and the Broncos never considered him) and then the rumors that the Wilfs weren't going to let KAM trade him unless they landed someone on par with Watson or Wilson... it's hard to say conclusively whether that is true. It is true that no NFL team views him as highly as PFF or the Vikings would have gotten packages with 1st rounders plus more.

As for an underrated player, I'd say Armon Watts since most people don't know who he is and he filled in the old Tom Johnson role rather well. He doesn't have a clear fitting spot in the 3-4 defense, but if they go 4 DL in nickel packages, he'll do fine as the 3T.

Watts could be fine or he could be another Tom Johnson like you said, a guy who only has success because of the Zimmer defensive scheme.

Either way he falls in the does not matter category for me. His presence will not make a significant impact, good or bad, on the team.

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Top Tier QB's May 14, 2022 13:39:08 GMT -6 via mobile Reignman likes this

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Post by FSUVike on May 14, 2022 13:39:08 GMT -6

I disagree with the takes on Watts. He can be a DE on passing downs when Donatell is in a 3-4. And continue to be the 3T on passing downs in 4-2-5.

And he needs to produce. I don't have much faith in Tomlinson providing any sort of consistent pressure. Phillips is almost purely a run stuffer. Lynch may get more pressure by kicking back to the position he played at Baylor as a 3-4 DE, but that's not guaranteed. Otomewo is too raw of a pass rusher to project as helping at all this year. Twyman is an undersized 3T and may not even fit the scheme. Stevenson actually intrigues me but he's an UDFA.

If Watts doesn't produce or someone from that group I just covered doesn't take a major step forward then it's solely up to Hunter and Z to get pressure on the QB. Z will definitely get plenty of it from inside, just as he did a few years back when he eviscerated Minnesota's IOL to rack up something like 34 pressures.

But you can't keep Z on the inside all the time. He won't hold up. And whomever is on the Edge when he slides inside will be unlikely to produce much at all if it's not a Linebacker.

I like Hicks coming off the Edge in sets where Z starts off on the interior, be it standing up or with a hand in the dirt. But you can't do that too often because it obviously vacates a zone.

Any way you slice it the majority of 4-2-5 looks on obvious passing downs will have Hunter on one end and Z on the other. Which means someone needs to be providing pressure on the interior from the down 4. And right now the number one candidate is Watts. So he's actually very important, IMO.

The other reason he (or someone else) providing consistent pressure is what happens if Z or Hunter gets hurt. I don't believe Wonnum will ever be anything other than a massive reach. He's logged tons of snaps and is as bad at generating pressure on a consistent basis as Bradbury is at stopping it. Yes, DJ Wonnum is as bad as Garrett Bradbury. Actually, he's worse. At least Garrett can run block. DJ is awful at setting the edge against the run.

The rest of the cast doesn't inspire. Jones? Yawn. Robinson? Too raw. Maybe, though (shrugging)? Willekes? Try hard guy but probably that's it. Vilain? Hmmm.

Hmmm. Luiji Vilain. I know he's an UDFA and I'm doom and gloom like Morbo reading the news to you Earthlings but this kid actually intrigues me. Like way more than my homeristic rooting for Janarius. Almost as much as my nearly-unjustified (but not totally) mancrush on ISM.

Still, if an UDFA is a legit dark horse for best shot at replacing some of Z or Hunter's production that tells you a lot about the competition he's facing as a Rookie.

If Donatell can't replace the Edge pressure AND he's not getting any consistent pressure from the interior then he's going to have to blitz a lot just like Zimmer had to the last few seasons. Which puts too much pressure on Old Man Peterson, the Needle and M.A.S.H. to cover against a pretty good group of Receivers this season (minus GB, lol).

Granted, having 3 good Safeties will help. And a Slot CB that shouldn't be the inarguably worst one in the League last year. So will markedly better run defense to put opponents in more obvious passing downs. But none of those improvements will be enough to prevent Hunter or Z going down having a seismic affect on the Defense as a whole.

And this is why I hate picking a Guard in the 2nd with Bonitto and Jackson sitting there. Both are simply far better prospects than anything currently on the Roster at Depth Edge. Is Ingram far better than Reed or Davis squared?

Bottom line is that in my estimation this Team only has 2 pass rushers that can consistently be counted on to provide pressure. And if one of them goes down for an extended period of time things will likely get ugly. Again.

Last Edit: May 14, 2022 13:43:27 GMT -6 by FSUVike

mngopher35
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Top Tier QB's May 14, 2022 14:51:53 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by mngopher35 on May 14, 2022 14:51:53 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 20:22:17 GMT -6 Reignman said:

May 13, 2022 18:50:09 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

How many franchise altering QB's have we drafted and developed? Even though the one we have now isn't, I'll take the bird in the hand for the next year or two.

I'm at a stage in my fanaticism where there's no distinction between 4-13 and 9-8 lol. If you're never going to win a championship with Mr. 9-8, then why waste your time? Eventually he's going to retire and you're going to have to look for the next QB anyway, so why not get a head start on that now? I'd rather be sitting at 5-12 knowing my team is at least trying to do something and maybe working toward a championship, than see it waste away at 9-8, believing it's content with mediocrity. It's hard to have faith in them knowing they think they can fix Kirk and even come close to sniffing a championship with him. If they can't figure out something that obvious by now, I can only wonder what else they might be getting wrong. Based on this offseason, it seems like they're getting a lot wrong. The no trade clause for example, Harbaugh, Mannion, Bradbury, the 1st round trade with Detroit, just to name a few.

I won't go quite as far as no distinction in those outcomes but I don't overly care about mediocre seasons without much future hope so mostly agree with that idea. A higher pick is much better than being stuck with the same old middling results over and over. Part of it for me has to do with already seeing most of this core together for years and it failing (especially since Cousins) to the point it destroyed the last regime (that got us to the nfc championship game).

The question of how many franchise altering QB's have we drafted and developed is related to the answer of another question imo. How many time have we drafted and developed a top 10 QB? The answer is the same to both questions, 0. That is part of why having that higher pick matters in the end. It's why having more ammo in the following draft by acquiring more picks also matters so you can move up. In my lifetime the Vikings have never even tried to go the route of drafting a high level blue chip QB in the top 10 and develop them. Anyone asking this question needs to use context and the context explains exactly why drafting that high should be seen as important if you actually want that type of QB.

I agree this offseason has made me question the new regime, a lot of the shine has worn off with some of the decisions made. Kirk and the first round trade especially got a lot of deserved criticism from the mainstream. I do still have faith that it isn't as bad as it looks right now to most. I think ownership forced this route to a large extent. I think Kwesi can still learn from his mistakes in terms of the draft and I liked plenty outside of a couple moves. I have faith KOC can get us to 10-11 wins with how bad our schedule it. If they are content with that then we have a major problem though. At this point all we can do is wait and see.

Last Edit: May 14, 2022 14:52:51 GMT -6 by mngopher35

Reignman
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Top Tier QB's May 14, 2022 15:21:53 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Reignman on May 14, 2022 15:21:53 GMT -6

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

why do you not have to have Cousins to get the next guy?

I'm not saying you don't, but that has yet to happen, unless you want to count Mond. Instead of looking for the next guy we keep bringing Mannion back. I'm starting to believe Cousin and his agent negotiated Mannion into his contract lol.

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

You talked about having faith and then you talk about going 9-8 as if it's a foregone conclusion.

9-8 has been a foregone conclusion Kirks entire career, no matter what coaching staff he's had so why should I think anything differently this time? Fool me once ...

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Getting to the playoffs is never a waste of time.

No, but merely getting to the playoffs shouldn't be the goal here. There are ways to make your path through the playoffs easier and I'm not convinced the Vikings are interested in taking the necessary chances to make that happen. They've said so themselves, just get in and anything can happen. "Competitive rebuild" is code for stay in the 7th seed hunt at any cost.

Everything they've done so far has reeked of maintaining the mediocrity status quo because the "at least we're not Detroit" fan base doesn't have higher expectations. Ownership doesn't care about winning championships, it cares about making money, and if it can do that at 9-8, you're going to get a big old helping of 9-8. The Wilves are making plenty of money at 9-8 and their bi-annual run at the 7th seed, and the fans seem perfectly content with that formula too, so why mess with it? It's the fans duty to motivate ownership if they want a championship. I'm doing my part while some of you ask for another helping of 9-8.

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

The Bengals were 10-7 last year and went to the super bowl. Check out their stud QB's performance in the second half of the playoff games and in particular the 4th quarter.

Lol their stud QB performance? Yeah, sounds exactly like Kirk Cousins. Welcome to the problem. We've never gotten a stud performance out of Cousins at any point in his career, but people suddenly think they're going to get a stud performance out of him to rival Joe Burrow? Imagine Cousins getting sacked 9 times in a playoff game like Burrow did against the Titans. When has Cousins led a 18 point comeback against a tough opponent on the road like Burrow in KC?

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

They're not trying to fix kirk. No one is going to turn him into Aaron Rodgers. They're trying to optimize his ability.

What ability? The ability where he needs to be surrounded by a great supporting cast that can carry him to a Super Bowl lol? Tough to do when he's eating a lot of the salary cap. If they wanted to maximize his ability, then why did they neglect his biggest weakness, the IOL?

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Big difference and something Zimmer wasn't able to do because he was too pigheaded.

People haven't been paying attention if they think Zimmer and the play calling explain everything that was wrong with Cousins the last 4 years. First of all, you gotta ignore how Cousins wasn't any better his 3 years as a starter before Zimmer when he worked with a lot of great offensive minds. Second of all, it's not the play calling that makes Cousins not able to handle pressure. Kubiak wasn't calling all the checkdowns to Ham on 3rd down. The play calling isn't why we lost to Cooper Rush on SNF. Thirdly, why are we ignoring what Cousins own receivers think of him? Diggs wanted out, Rudolph never mentioned him in his goodbye, Thielen has had words with him, JJ has shown his frustration. Then there was that super secret closed door meeting where anonymous "team leaders" called Cousins their dog, which nobody put their name to publicly.

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

It's seems like they're getting a lot wrong? Based on what?

Did you miss my list lol? "The no trade clause for example, Harbaugh, Mannion, Bradbury, the 1st round trade with Detroit, just to name a few." All objectively wrong.

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

Your assumptions are based on your PTSD from years of failure.

Guilty, as charged. *blush*

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

If you want to assume that none of what they're doing is going to work because you think it's the same then go ahead.

Well I'm doing more than assuming, and history is on my side. 61 years of history.

May 13, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6 dauntessmallhands said:

I'm gonna try to find joy in this. Not look for reasons to allow for misery.

Brah, I'm trying to find joy in this, why do you think I spend this much time complaining lol? The problem is, the Vikings aren't doing us any favors. Some of you seem to find joy in 9 wins a year, and the 8 competitive losses, and the bi-annual playoff appearance. Oooo we were so close again weren't we guys

? That's part of the problem.

I'm well past that phase. Championship or bust, and there are much better ways to win a championship than whatever the hell the Vikings are trying to do. It's not because I think I know more than they do, it's because I've seen what other teams have done to win championships and it doesn't look like this. This is what it looks like when a team is trying to maintain it's very comfortable status quo.

There's only one thing this franchise can do to upset the low expectations fan base, and that's to end up like Detroit. Which could happen if you take the wrong chances. Unfortunately you need to take chances to win championships, so I'm sure you can see the dilemma they're in. It's pretty clear to me they're banking on status quo and hoping they get lucking one of these times like the Giants did that one time.

If you want championships, raise your expectations, otherwise yeah, good luck finding as much joy as you can in another 9-8 season.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.