[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins

whoskmoon
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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 11:22:39 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Feb 25, 2022 22:21:28 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

When was he ever the victim?

When he was coming off a four year fourth round pick rookie contract and Snyder refused to give him a market based long term extension. He had to play that fourth year with no guarantees and then only received a guaranteed one year franchise tag contract (twice). If he had been seriously injured during his fourth year, he wouldn't have received his well earned rewards. Fortunately, it had a happy ending for Kirk and a miserable ending for whatever that team calls itself these days. How many different starting QBs have they had since then?

Snyder was supposed to shell out big bucks for a guy who was coming off a season where he was benched for Colt McCoy? In what world?

Cousins preferred playing on the franchise tag.

I believe the franchise tag can be your friend,” Cousins said on ESPN on Thursday. “I don't think it's something to be disappointed with. I think it enables you to be well-compensated, and deservedly so, for the upcoming seaso

Bruce Allen: Redskins offered Kirk Cousins $53 million, but he prefers franchise tag

He was never the victim of anything. He was given the opportunity to prove his worth in his 4th season and then was compensated too highly, fully guaranteed, for the rest of his career.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 12:15:02 GMT -6

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Post by NoresemanSam on Feb 26, 2022 12:15:02 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 11:40:49 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

They've had just as many playoff appearances in the 4 years since as we have. Generally hovering right around 7 wins. What did we gain that they lost?

I know that some credit a team's entire success/failure to the QB (except when it's the GM's fault, or when it's the HC's fault, or.....), but I'm not among them. We gained much higher QB performance than they have had.

"There is no one most valuable Viking. There are 40 most valuable Vikings" - Joe Kapp upon refusing to accept the team MVP award

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 12:16:44 GMT -6

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Post by NoresemanSam on Feb 26, 2022 12:16:44 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

He was never the victim of anything. He was given the opportunity to prove his worth in his 4th season and then was compensated too highly, fully guaranteed, for the rest of his career.

Well (again), we'll just have to agree to disagree. IIRC, you couldn't even agree with that the last time I threw it out there.... *makeitstop*

"There is no one most valuable Viking. There are 40 most valuable Vikings" - Joe Kapp upon refusing to accept the team MVP award

suncoastvike
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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 13:00:14 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Feb 26, 2022 13:00:14 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 12:15:02 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Feb 26, 2022 11:40:49 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

They've had just as many playoff appearances in the 4 years since as we have. Generally hovering right around 7 wins. What did we gain that they lost?

I know that some credit a team's entire success/failure to the QB (except when it's the GM's fault, or when it's the HC's fault, or.....), but I'm not among them. We gained much higher QB performance than they have had.

I don't disagree. I think Kirk is a good QB but overall we were a better team before him. Washington aside from the 3-13 season right after he left has been on par with us mostly. Fringe playoff team around 7 wins. However, they went from a 3-13 team to hovering around .500. We went from a 13-3 team to do the same.
Not sure if either team reached their goals.
Not sure one can't make a case that we fell further though. Considering where both teams started.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 13:33:30 GMT -6

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Post by NoresemanSam on Feb 26, 2022 13:33:30 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I believe the franchise tag can be your friend,” Cousins said on ESPN on Thursday. “I don't think it's something to be disappointed with. I think it enables you to be well-compensated, and deservedly so, for the upcoming seaso

The fact that he took the high road rather than whining like a spoiled brat doesn't mean he liked it.

Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Bruce Allen: Redskins offered Kirk Cousins $53 million, but he prefers franchise tag

Translation: He preferred to play a year or two under the franchise tag rather than take a low ball offer from a stupid team. In the end, it was the more profitable road to take. The man is not an idiot and he bet on himself (and won).

"There is no one most valuable Viking. There are 40 most valuable Vikings" - Joe Kapp upon refusing to accept the team MVP award

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 18:15:47 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Feb 26, 2022 18:15:47 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 13:33:30 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I believe the franchise tag can be your friend,” Cousins said on ESPN on Thursday. “I don't think it's something to be disappointed with. I think it enables you to be well-compensated, and deservedly so, for the upcoming seaso

The fact that he took the high road rather than whining like a spoiled brat doesn't mean he liked it.

Feb 26, 2022 12:00:20 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Bruce Allen: Redskins offered Kirk Cousins $53 million, but he prefers franchise tag

Translation: He preferred to play a year or two under the franchise tag rather than take a low ball offer from a stupid team. In the end, it was the more profitable road to take. The man is not an idiot and he bet on himself (and won).

So in other words he was never the victim and instead has done a really good job of working the system to his favor.

Good for him I suppose, bad for my favorite team.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 19:31:36 GMT -6

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Post by NoresemanSam on Feb 26, 2022 19:31:36 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 18:15:47 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

So in other words he was never the victim and instead has done a really good job of working the system to his favor.

Yep. My use of the word "victim" was (obviously?) hyperbole. I'm happier to see a fine Christian family man make a fortune off of this silly game than a thug who beats innocent people. Dopy me....

"There is no one most valuable Viking. There are 40 most valuable Vikings" - Joe Kapp upon refusing to accept the team MVP award

suncoastvike
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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 26, 2022 19:55:03 GMT -6 andhesloose28 likes this

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Post by suncoastvike on Feb 26, 2022 19:55:03 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 19:31:36 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Feb 26, 2022 18:15:47 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

So in other words he was never the victim and instead has done a really good job of working the system to his favor.

Yep. My use of the word "victim" was (obviously?) hyperbole. I'm happier to see a fine Christian family man make a fortune off of this silly game than a thug who beats innocent people. Dopy me....

No problem for me either...as long as he's working some other team for that max contract. Paying him that elite money didn't work for us. Won't bother with blame or not. Simply just didn't work. One winning record in 4 years regardless.
He was certainly under paid at the beginning of his career. Then we made him among the top paid. He can appreciate that or screw him. Work that magic elsewhere.
We need a more complete team. If he needs a more complete portfolio then move on.
My problem is, as you said earlier, he never showed concern with betting on himself over longer contracts. I worry he's going to look at that one year $45 million dollar remaining and say...nah I good with this then hitting the market again. That just sets our rebuild back a year. In that case I will be happy watching him pack his family and his bibles in his crappy van driving out of town. See ya Brother Loves Traveling Salvation Show.

Last Edit: Feb 26, 2022 19:57:29 GMT -6 by suncoastvike

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 28, 2022 8:36:02 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Feb 28, 2022 8:36:02 GMT -6

Feb 26, 2022 19:55:03 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Feb 26, 2022 19:31:36 GMT -6 NoresemanSam said:

Yep. My use of the word "victim" was (obviously?) hyperbole. I'm happier to see a fine Christian family man make a fortune off of this silly game than a thug who beats innocent people. Dopy me....

He was certainly under paid at the beginning of his career.

When he was on his rookie deal? That is true for most starters.

He certainly wasn't underpaid after that deal. He was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016 and the 3rd highest in 2017. The guy has worked the system from the minute his rookie contract ended even if it meant costing his team the ability to sign free agents or keep players. He cares more about winning the contract game than winning NFL games, and that is NOT what every QB does. If they did we would see star QBs switching teams far more frequently than they do since there is always another team out there that is willing to pay more, and not necessarily a bad team like the Jets either.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Feb 28, 2022 10:41:06 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Feb 28, 2022 10:41:06 GMT -6

Feb 28, 2022 8:36:02 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Feb 26, 2022 19:55:03 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

He was certainly under paid at the beginning of his career.

When he was on his rookie deal? That is true for most starters.

He certainly wasn't underpaid after that deal. He was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016 and the 3rd highest in 2017. The guy has worked the system from the minute his rookie contract ended even if it meant costing his team the ability to sign free agents or keep players. He cares more about winning the contract game than winning NFL games, and that is NOT what every QB does. If they did we would see star QBs switching teams far more frequently than they do since there is always another team out there that is willing to pay more, and not necessarily a bad team like the Jets either.

Then why did you delete the rest of my post? Isn't that what I said. We made him a top paid QB. After not getting extended by Washington on his 4th rounder rookie deal and twice tagged. We gave him a sweetheart deal. If you ask me he owes us now not us him. However it is his career and he can play this anyway he feels. I can feel he's being greedy seeing what the Vikings gave him the same as you. I think I will be feeling the same about him this time next year as well.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Mar 1, 2022 20:46:16 GMT -6 NoresemanSam and dauntessmallhands like this

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Post by MidwinterViking on Mar 1, 2022 20:46:16 GMT -6

A lot of the Cousins discussion comes down to "if he's paid a reasonable rate". But a problem I have had is: what is the market rate for QBs? Guys sign deal in different years with different salary caps for different lengths.

I took a list of current QBs on veteran deals then compared what their deal would be if they signed the exact same deal but on the 2022 salary cap of $208.2M. I also added the first 2 deals Cousins signed with the Vikings.

Looking at this I could argue a market rate for Cousins is anywhere from $34M per year (Just above Stafford and below his 2020 rate for lack of playoff appearances) to $38M (he's clearly better than Goff and Wentz, but below Wilson). Even if he got $40M per year that's higher than I think he's worth but would be clearly below the Mahomes / Allen / Prescott tier; and I don't think $2-3M a year will have a large impact on a $208M cap.

Food for thought as you think about what number you might expect to see on a potential Cousins extension.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Mar 2, 2022 9:45:20 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by ukvikings on Mar 2, 2022 9:45:20 GMT -6

Mar 1, 2022 20:46:16 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

A lot of the Cousins discussion comes down to "if he's paid a reasonable rate". But a problem I have had is: what is the market rate for QBs? Guys sign deal in different years with different salary caps for different lengths.

I took a list of current QBs on veteran deals then compared what their deal would be if they signed the exact same deal but on the 2022 salary cap of $208.2M. I also added the first 2 deals Cousins signed with the Vikings.

Looking at this I could argue a market rate for Cousins is anywhere from $34M per year (Just above Stafford and below his 2020 rate for lack of playoff appearances) to $38M (he's clearly better than Goff and Wentz, but below Wilson). Even if he got $40M per year that's higher than I think he's worth but would be clearly below the Mahomes / Allen / Prescott tier; and I don't think $2-3M a year will have a large impact on a $208M cap.

Food for thought as you think about what number you might expect to see on a potential Cousins extension.

I think you hit the nail on the head with those numbers. Whether it’s here or elsewhere I bet it’s between 34 and 38 mill on an extension. The question is do you want to be on the bottom of that list as a franchise. You could argue yes as Ryan T was a 1 seed, Jimmy G and Stafford were in the NFC title game this year, etc. Or you could say no, those guys aren’t worth that as there is such a significant drop from the top of the list that the 10-15 mill cap difference isn’t worth it.

Last Edit: Mar 2, 2022 9:46:09 GMT -6 by ukvikings

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Mar 2, 2022 10:04:36 GMT -6 Danchat and suncoastvike like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Mar 2, 2022 10:04:36 GMT -6

Mar 1, 2022 20:46:16 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

A lot of the Cousins discussion comes down to "if he's paid a reasonable rate". But a problem I have had is: what is the market rate for QBs? Guys sign deal in different years with different salary caps for different lengths.

I took a list of current QBs on veteran deals then compared what their deal would be if they signed the exact same deal but on the 2022 salary cap of $208.2M. I also added the first 2 deals Cousins signed with the Vikings.

Looking at this I could argue a market rate for Cousins is anywhere from $34M per year (Just above Stafford and below his 2020 rate for lack of playoff appearances) to $38M (he's clearly better than Goff and Wentz, but below Wilson). Even if he got $40M per year that's higher than I think he's worth but would be clearly below the Mahomes / Allen / Prescott tier; and I don't think $2-3M a year will have a large impact on a $208M cap.

Food for thought as you think about what number you might expect to see on a potential Cousins extension.

These numbers don't work because the contracts aren't of equal length.

Cousins in the 5 years he is under contract with the Vikings will make the second most of any player in the entire NFL. 500K less than Wilson. That is the context behind his deals, not what Mahomes will be making in 2031.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Mar 2, 2022 11:01:19 GMT -6 NoresemanSam likes this

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Post by MidwinterViking on Mar 2, 2022 11:01:19 GMT -6

Mar 2, 2022 9:45:20 GMT -6 ukvikings said:

Mar 1, 2022 20:46:16 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

A lot of the Cousins discussion comes down to "if he's paid a reasonable rate". But a problem I have had is: what is the market rate for QBs? Guys sign deal in different years with different salary caps for different lengths.

I took a list of current QBs on veteran deals then compared what their deal would be if they signed the exact same deal but on the 2022 salary cap of $208.2M. I also added the first 2 deals Cousins signed with the Vikings.

Looking at this I could argue a market rate for Cousins is anywhere from $34M per year (Just above Stafford and below his 2020 rate for lack of playoff appearances) to $38M (he's clearly better than Goff and Wentz, but below Wilson). Even if he got $40M per year that's higher than I think he's worth but would be clearly below the Mahomes / Allen / Prescott tier; and I don't think $2-3M a year will have a large impact on a $208M cap.

Food for thought as you think about what number you might expect to see on a potential Cousins extension.

I think you hit the nail on the head with those numbers. Whether it’s here or elsewhere I bet it’s between 34 and 38 mill on an extension. The question is do you want to be on the bottom of that list as a franchise. You could argue yes as Ryan T was a 1 seed, Jimmy G and Stafford were in the NFC title game this year, etc. Or you could say no, those guys aren’t worth that as there is such a significant drop from the top of the list that the 10-15 mill cap difference isn’t worth it.

My take from the list was that there is much less variation in QB contracts than I expected to see. The numbers for the most part seem to line up with how I would slot guys with a few exceptions. Goff looks out of place now, but at the time he had a 33 wins, 2 Pro Bowls and Super Bowl appearance in the 3 seasons prior to his contract; so some inflated numbers for him are understandable. Rodgers looks underpaid, but that has been apparent for a few years.

As far as where on the list a team falls, I break it into 3 categories:
- Is on the list now (I think every team would like to be higher if they could find a guy).
- Will be on the list soon when they pay their rookie.
- Wishes they were on the list.

I don't want to fall into the trap of saying "I think I could build team with Carr + $15M vs Mahomes" because that makes it seem like a team gets to pick which QB they have off a menu. When in reality, they just have to find a QB by any means necessary.

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[OC] Let's Play Pay Kirk Cousins Mar 2, 2022 11:25:43 GMT -6 ukvikings likes this

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Post by suncoastvike on Mar 2, 2022 11:25:43 GMT -6

Mar 2, 2022 10:04:36 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Mar 1, 2022 20:46:16 GMT -6 MidwinterViking said:

A lot of the Cousins discussion comes down to "if he's paid a reasonable rate". But a problem I have had is: what is the market rate for QBs? Guys sign deal in different years with different salary caps for different lengths.

I took a list of current QBs on veteran deals then compared what their deal would be if they signed the exact same deal but on the 2022 salary cap of $208.2M. I also added the first 2 deals Cousins signed with the Vikings.

Looking at this I could argue a market rate for Cousins is anywhere from $34M per year (Just above Stafford and below his 2020 rate for lack of playoff appearances) to $38M (he's clearly better than Goff and Wentz, but below Wilson). Even if he got $40M per year that's higher than I think he's worth but would be clearly below the Mahomes / Allen / Prescott tier; and I don't think $2-3M a year will have a large impact on a $208M cap.

Food for thought as you think about what number you might expect to see on a potential Cousins extension.

These numbers don't work because the contracts aren't of equal length.

Cousins in the 5 years he is under contract with the Vikings will make the second most of any player in the entire NFL. 500K less than Wilson. That is the context behind his deals, not what Mahomes will be making in 2031.

That was my read too. I don't understand the logic of needing to rework his contract every year. These others signed contracts that you at least get a few years. We are right back to where we were just last year. Doesn't seem the same at all.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.