I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike

whoskmoon
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 21, 2021 17:10:08 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Oct 21, 2021 17:10:08 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 13:44:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Oct 21, 2021 12:40:31 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

The QB still only has 7 wins against playoff teams in the entirety of his 6+ season career. That is not close enough to be a championship level QB. We do have the WRs, run game and Oline that are either championship level or close enough and we have the defense that is championship level.

We all know his history.
Which is why I included... and skill positions. He doesn't have to elevate those guys. They are already pretty good. Kirk is better then average this year. Compared to the previous 10 years far better. Like legitimate dare I say. I don't think you can put many of the losses this year on him. You think this defense has out played his level? I say they are too inconsistent to be called close too championship level.
This puts me in the rare and uncomfortable position of having to defend Kirk. So I'm giving credit he is do only. Don't get hung up on it. He has this year finally reached the level I hoped he could be when brought in. Now we have to see if he can maintain it. In my opinion any hope we have is him doing what he's been doing. Spreading the ball around and continuing to put us in positions to win. Not a comfortable feeling either. However so far he's doing his job well.

Sorry didn't want to make you defend Cousins.

suncoastvike
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 21, 2021 18:08:21 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Oct 21, 2021 18:08:21 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 17:10:08 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Oct 21, 2021 13:44:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

We all know his history.
Which is why I included... and skill positions. He doesn't have to elevate those guys. They are already pretty good. Kirk is better then average this year. Compared to the previous 10 years far better. Like legitimate dare I say. I don't think you can put many of the losses this year on him. You think this defense has out played his level? I say they are too inconsistent to be called close too championship level.
This puts me in the rare and uncomfortable position of having to defend Kirk. So I'm giving credit he is do only. Don't get hung up on it. He has this year finally reached the level I hoped he could be when brought in. Now we have to see if he can maintain it. In my opinion any hope we have is him doing what he's been doing. Spreading the ball around and continuing to put us in positions to win. Not a comfortable feeling either. However so far he's doing his job well.

Sorry didn't want to make you defend Cousins.

I got through it ok. I wouldn't mind having to defend him all year. I guess it would get easier if he can maintain this level.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

Reignman
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 21, 2021 19:23:41 GMT -6 Longship likes this

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Post by Reignman on Oct 21, 2021 19:23:41 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 12:01:24 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

There are two people and two people only who have it figured out. Beyond that? Find someone who at least puts you in the conversation every year. Start there.

That's all we're asking for, to find someone who "puts you in the conversation every year". However, I think some of us are talking about an entirely different conversation. Because some of you seem to be content with the 9-7 conversation every year. I mean 3 playoff appearances and 2 wins in 8 seasons? That's the wrong conversation.

Oct 21, 2021 13:44:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

You think this defense has out played his level? I say they are too inconsistent to be called close too championship level.

I know overall Kirk has put up some good numbers this year, but I feel like I'm watching a different QB than the rest of you who seem to think he's in the MVP conversation lol. Cousins seems to disappear for long stretches every game. He makes up for it by getting hot at other stretches, and getting us in FG range against prevent on the final drive before someone fumbles or misses a FG. Kirk has been just as inconsistent as the D. To be fair, a lot of it could probably be put on Zimferior and baby Kubes not allowing him to maintain a rhythm. Because we gotta soak the clock on every 3 point lead.

Oct 21, 2021 10:42:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Super sarcastic, but I do think some fans don't realize that above average isn't good enough.

Lol ok you had me worried with that first post. Well played. *notworthy*

Unless you were being serious then, and now you're being super sarcastic. *skeptic*

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

Oracle Bone Diviner
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 21, 2021 19:41:51 GMT -6 Reignman, comet52, and 1 more like this

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Oct 21, 2021 19:41:51 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 9:28:58 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Oct 20, 2021 22:15:07 GMT -6 Reignman said:

I can appreciate the analysis, but I gave up on Iron Mike in 2016, BEFORE he got a one-time bonus from the football gods which he labeled "Case's Horseshoe" which he then turned into "Mike's Horsepoop".

You can tell a lot about a man by observing his behavior and all the goofy behavior in 2016 added up to No Sale for this fan. And I had been a believer up until then . If the organization was smart it would have recognized this and cut loose from him, but their ignorance is our bliss, or more accurately our misery as fans.

So 5 years later we have a mountain of stats to "prove" what was obvious 5 years ago to anyone capable of taking a critical look at the man. And on we go with Mediocre Mike and Slick Rick and win now and it's our year and we want to believe more than we want to take an honest look at what we're doing over at TCO.

Yeah he failed the sniff test years ago, and this little factual smackdown won't win over anyone from the alternate reality crowd. Maybe if he had used the Nemisystem...

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Will
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 21, 2021 19:53:16 GMT -6

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Post by Will on Oct 21, 2021 19:53:16 GMT -6

Without an elite QB or an elite defense, it is hard to win a Super Bowl. With a mediocre coach, it is impossible without a strong pass rush and an OK QB. It also takes health.

It is not impossible for Zimmer, but it is highly unlikely. This year, the O-line has to develop and some young defenders such as Wonnum need to improve. Griffen is unlikely to maintain his current level. Given the next 5 games, it will be an accomplishment to go 3-2. That means the Vikings are closer to a .500 team than a contender. That is not very good when you have an expensive QB and great offensive skill players.The offense should be better.

Who is more responsible for the offense underachieving:

A. Conservative Zimmer or

B. Inexperienced Kubiak?

Last Edit: Oct 21, 2021 19:57:03 GMT -6 by Will

Reignman
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 21, 2021 20:16:41 GMT -6

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Post by Reignman on Oct 21, 2021 20:16:41 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 9:28:58 GMT -6 comet52 said:

So 5 years later we have a mountain of stats to "prove" what was obvious 5 years ago to anyone capable of taking a critical look at the man.

Oct 21, 2021 19:41:51 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

Yeah he failed the sniff test years ago, and this little factual smackdown won't win over anyone from the alternate reality crowd.

C'mon guys, this obviously wasn't for the critical thinking crowd lol. It's for those slow learners at the back of the short bus.

Oct 21, 2021 19:41:51 GMT -6 Oracle Bone Diviner said:

Maybe if he had used the Nemisystem...

Who says that version isn't coming after this version stews a little bit? The Nemsisytem has it's flaws too however. Like Zimferior getting credit for beating an above .500 opponent because the Panthers were 3-2. I'm guessing we'd see the same results with either system.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

suncoastvike
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 22, 2021 1:47:20 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Oct 22, 2021 1:47:20 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 19:23:41 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Oct 21, 2021 12:01:24 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

There are two people and two people only who have it figured out. Beyond that? Find someone who at least puts you in the conversation every year. Start there.

That's all we're asking for, to find someone who "puts you in the conversation every year". However, I think some of us are talking about an entirely different conversation. Because some of you seem to be content with the 9-7 conversation every year. I mean 3 playoff appearances and 2 wins in 8 seasons? That's the wrong conversation.

Oct 21, 2021 13:44:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

You think this defense has out played his level? I say they are too inconsistent to be called close too championship level.

I know overall Kirk has put up some good numbers this year, but I feel like I'm watching a different QB than the rest of you who seem to think he's in the MVP conversation lol. Cousins seems to disappear for long stretches every game. He makes up for it by getting hot at other stretches, and getting us in FG range against prevent on the final drive before someone fumbles or misses a FG. Kirk has been just as inconsistent as the D. To be fair, a lot of it could probably be put on Zimferior and baby Kubes not allowing him to maintain a rhythm. Because we gotta soak the clock on every 3 point lead.

Oct 21, 2021 10:42:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Super sarcastic, but I do think some fans don't realize that above average isn't good enough.

Lol ok you had me worried with that first post. Well played. *notworthy*

Unless you were being serious then, and now you're being super sarcastic. *skeptic*

Well begrudgingly giving him credit for earning his pay is a long way from MVP talk.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

whoskmoon
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 22, 2021 6:11:03 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Oct 22, 2021 6:11:03 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 19:23:41 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Oct 21, 2021 13:44:38 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

You think this defense has out played his level? I say they are too inconsistent to be called close too championship level.

I know overall Kirk has put up some good numbers this year, but I feel like I'm watching a different QB than the rest of you who seem to think he's in the MVP conversation lol. Cousins seems to disappear for long stretches every game. He makes up for it by getting hot at other stretches, and getting us in FG range against prevent on the final drive before someone fumbles or misses a FG. Kirk has been just as inconsistent as the D. To be fair, a lot of it could probably be put on Zimferior and baby Kubes not allowing him to maintain a rhythm. Because we gotta soak the clock on every 3 point lead.

The offensive numbers back up what you are seeing about Kirk and I have a guess as to what the issue is. It is the same issue we had in 2016 with Sam Bradford.

When presented with an open receiver 1-5 yards downfield he locks into them almost immediately and sees nothing else. This is fine for a while where that type of efficient, safe play works before the defense adjusts, but eventually those types of plays begin to pick up fewer and fewer yards and just don't work by the second half.

This has been an issue with Kirk in the past, typically against better defenses, but it seems like he has become that type of QB full time now. It isn't until Kubiak removes those short routes as an option for Kirk, when they need to move quickly down the field, that he finally starts to see JJ and Thielen wide open beyond 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

2016 was an extreme version of this. Philly showed the NFL why they traded up for Wentz and put film out there of exactly how to stop Bradford: 3rd and 7, leave a guy open 5 yards short of the sticks and he will throw it there every time. 1 and 10, show a front where Bradford knows he can pick up 2 on a quick hitter to the underneath route and he will throw it there every time.

It is tunnel vision quarterbacking at its worst.

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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 22, 2021 6:48:16 GMT -6 Longship likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Oct 22, 2021 6:48:16 GMT -6

Oct 21, 2021 10:42:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Oct 21, 2021 10:14:54 GMT -6 suncoastvike said:

Sarcasm??? I hope.

Or I have to disagree. Above average might get you in the playoffs but get killed there. Where are all these about average championship teams? I guess great is technically above average...way above it. I don't recall alot just above average teams winning it all.

Super sarcastic, but I do think some fans don't realize that above average isn't good enough. Yes it can be much worse and yes, the odds are that you will get worse if you make a change, but to win it all you have to take that chance.

I'm not sure I'd call him above average to be honest. He's good enough to stay employed, but that's really about it.

comet52 Hall of Fame Candidate Posts: 7,078 Likes: 8,706	I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 23, 2021 9:58:43 GMT -6 Reignman, Longship, and 1 more like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by comet52 on Oct 23, 2021 9:58:43 GMT -6 Meaty Ogre Mike deserves another chance. Sincerely, The Wilf Bros.
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TAFKASP
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I Was Wrong About Mediocre Mike Oct 23, 2021 10:12:13 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by TAFKASP on Oct 23, 2021 10:12:13 GMT -6

Oct 20, 2021 22:15:07 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Soak it in because I rarely admit when I'm wrong ... mainly because I'm rarely wrong xD, but yep, this was one of those times, so I'm here to take my lumps.

I took a closer look, and it turns I'm giving him too much credit with his new moniker. I apologize. He's not even mediocre, he's just really good at padding his wins against inferior opponents.

Sure, overall he's mediocre, as evident by this chart where he's ranked 9th out of the 18 coaches who have coached at least 80 games from 2014-2020.

RK                    W- L-T   PCT
 1. Bill Belichick   81-31-0  .723
 2. Andy Reid        80-32-0  .714
 3. Pete Carroll     74-37-1  .665
    Mike Tomlin      74-37-1  .665
 5. Sean Payton      70-42-0  .625
 6. Bruce Arians     57-38-1  .599
 7. John Harbaugh    67-45-0  .598
 8. Jason Garrett    56-40-0  .583
 9. Mike Zimmer      64-47-1  .576
    18 coach average          .572
10. Ron Rivera       58-49-1  .542
11. Mike McCarthy    49-42-1  .538
12. Doug Pederson    42-37-1  .531
13. Marvin Lewis     41-37-2  .525
14. Bill O'Brien     52-48-0  .520
15. Dan Quinn        43-42-0  .506
16. Jay Gruden       35-49-1  .418
17. Adam Gase        32-48-0  .400
18. Doug Marrone     32-50-0  .390

But the goal here is to win championships and by that standard, the only standard, he can only wish he was at least mediocre. Lets break it down and rank him against these same 18 coaches in categories that might be indicative of ones ability to fill a trophy case.

                                                         18    NFL
CATEGORY                             W- L-T   PCT RANK   AVG   AVG
against teams above .500:           14-34-0  .292 15th  .395  .323
against eventual division winners:   7-20-0  .259 12th  .325  .276
against eventual playoff teams:     13-32-0  .289 15th  .374  .305
against teams that were better:      8-31-0  .205 17th  .279  .253
actual playoff win pct:              2- 3-0  .400 11th  .518  .500
actual playoff wins:                      2  tied 11th   3.3   1.9

Now here's where the magic happens ... how he lead me into a false belief of mediocrity.

against teams below .500:           47- 8-1  .848  2nd  .737  .672
against non-playoff teams:          51-15-1  .769  3rd  .688  .622
against teams that were worse:      55-13-1  .804  2nd  .756  .747

Impressive! Oh yeah, and "against teams that were better/worse", that simply goes by who finished the season with the better record, not who had the better record at the time of the game. The Nemesis-tem is not in play for this exercise.

In the categories that matter, he's even below the NFL average, in every category. Zimmer is similar to those handful of guys at the bottom of the 18. Not a good group to be associated with. The only difference is Zimmer is just better at beating Detroit than they are. AKA does just enough to save his job. Cuz Vikings!!! If there's one thing we can't accuse him of, it's playing down to the competition. Well he does, but he still manages to somehow win those games.

Can anyone honestly look at all those .200 records and believe this guy is going to win 3-4 consecutive games in Jan/Feb any time soon? Because I don't know if you guys have heard, but they don't allow to many of those below .500 teams into the playoffs. Misleading Mike can't even hold double digit 4th quarter leads against the likes of Goff or Darnold.

And for the fun of it, the 18 against each other. And remember, the 18 aren't necessarily the best 18, just the 18 who managed to stay employed long enough to make the list the past 7 seasons. Regular season only, 2014-2020.

                                      vs Zim
RK                    W- L-T   PCT     W-L-T
 1. Andy Reid        28-12-0  .700     1-1-0
 2. Pete Carroll     36-16-1  .689     4-0-0
 3. Bill Belichick   33-15-0  .688     2-0-0
 4. Sean Payton      36-21-0  .632     3-1-0
 5. Mike Tomlin      34-24-0  .586     1-0-0
 6. Jason Garrett    26-23-0  .531     1-1-0
 7. Ron Rivera       30-28-1  .517     1-2-0
 8. Mike Zimmer      24-23-1  .510
 9. John Harbaugh    27-29-0  .482     0-1-0
10. Dan Quinn        23-26-0  .469     0-3-0
11. Bill O'Brien     20-26-0  .435     0-2-0
12. Doug Pederson    19-26-0  .422     1-2-0
13. Bruce Arians     17-24-1  .417     2-1-0
14. Mike McCarthy    19-27-1  .415     5-5-1
15. Marvin Lewis     16-25-2  .395     0-1-0
16. Doug Marrone     12-21-0  .364     1-1-0
17. Jay Gruden       14-30-1  .322     1-2-0
18. Adam Gase         7-25-0  .219     0-1-0

That's the first time I've been surprised. I expected him to be near the bottom of this list, but he holds his own against some of the other guys who manage to find ways to hold onto their job. The bad news is, he's mediocre here too. Yeah sorry, Matt Patricia didn't qualify.

Ok I think I got it. Zimferior! Because he's an inferior solution to the empty trophy case problem. Nailed it! I heard someone refer to him as Zimrod too, which got a chuckle outa me xD.

Hey speaking of monikers Spielman's name might work fine just as it is for him.

spiel:

a long or fast speech or story, typically one intended as a means of persuasion or as an excuse but regarded with skepticism or contempt by those who hear it.

Yeah, sounds about right.

Was doing this what you always dreamed of for retirement? LOL

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