2021 Kirk - The moment of truth

Ill settle the debate for you guys..Kirk is not the reason we are .500 this year and we are likely .300 without him THIS YEAR. It can also be true that moving on from Kirk and starting over with a rookie QB contract can possibly get us closer to the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl. If you dont think both things can be true then im going to assume you are just anti kirk or a kirk stan.

You should add drafting a rookie QB could more likely than win a Superbowl lead to wasting the end of Dalvin's and Thielen's prime, and lead to pissing Jefferson off and him requesting a trade at some point....

It's a possibility...

Don't like Kirk? Fine whatever... But bring me the next retread at fair value you shouldn't need the next Mahomes to compete for a championship when you have the weapons we have...

Out of that list Id honestly only be concerned with pissing off Jefferson but even then no one player is bigger than the team since no ONE player is going to win us a championship. I get its a tough call to make but in 2018 when Kirk was brought in this meant Super Bowl or bust every year. So anything short is a failure, no its not completely on Kirk I mean a failure to the Minnesota Vikings from the water boy to the Wilfs. Yes every teams ultimate goal should be a super bowl and realistically your all failures if you don't win it, so lets say this meant we should be contending for one every year. 3/4 years later here we are and 1 playoff win to show for and only 1 playoff appearance during that time. Here we are doubling and tripling down each year for nothing and sitting at 7-7 and most likely not going to another playoff. At some point you need to pull the plug. Do you really think it is just a new coaching staff that brings us over the top? Zims time is 100% done with and im over him but I dont think a new coach is going to immediately make us contenders next year with this team, going to be a transition either way so why not start over at the highest paid position as well. The only question with Kirk is his contract, if he wants to play on the Vikings on say 25 million a year max im all for it, show you want to win. Kirk Cousins at 45 million a year is a no go for me, you could get a cheaper option and use the money to fill other holes. Again im not blaming Kirk at all this teams failure is not his fault by any means. Football is a team sport you need to be firing on all cylinders, which we clearly arent.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 10:57:32 GMT -6 pinfante79 and andhesloose28 like this

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 22, 2021 10:57:32 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 10:30:34 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

Ill settle the debate for you guys..Kirk is not the reason we are .500 this year and we are likely .300 without him THIS YEAR. It can also be true that moving on from Kirk and starting over with a rookie QB contract can possibly get us closer to the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl. If you dont think both things can be true then im going to assume you are just anti kirk or a kirk stan.

You should add drafting a rookie QB could more likely than win a Superbowl lead to wasting the end of Dalvin's and Thielen's prime, and lead to pissing Jefferson off and him requesting a trade at some point....

It's a possibility...

Don't like Kirk? Fine whatever... But bring me the next retread at fair value you shouldn't need the next Mahomes to compete for a championship when you have the weapons we have...

Don't look, but when KC won the Super Bowl with Mahomes they had the 7th ranked defense. What am I thinkng, it doesn't matter. It's not like Brady had the 8th ranked defense last year. Wait, he did. Nevermind. It's all the QB. Not like KC doesn't have the 8th ranked defense this year. Wait, they do. What am I thinking. See, the QB makes the defense better. Unless it's Rodgers the last 12 years. He wasn't able to elevate his defense over the hump into the top 10 until this year.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:00:56 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 11:00:56 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 9:58:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Dec 22, 2021 9:40:18 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

You keep telling yourself that. You have the same mindset as those who said Teddy was a winner because the defense bailed him out. Yet when he goes to another team that doesn’t have the same defense all of a sudden he isn’t so good. If you don’t understand that dynamic on a football team then I can’t help or have a rational conversation

And you have the mindset that despite Cousins having a better defense than Teddy ever had here and still only managing to win 8 and 11 games, somehow Cousins has been held back by the D while Teddy was carried by it. You talk about how important Cousins is, and how risky it is to move on from him without having a really good QB to replace him, while simultaneously downplaying his impact on winning games. Just a strange thought process that doesn't make any sense.

Wait- if you are trying to make a case that the Vikings defense has been better during the time Kirk has been here than it was when Teddy was playing then we can’t have an honest discussion

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:11:22 GMT -6 FSUVike likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 22, 2021 11:11:22 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 11:00:56 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Dec 22, 2021 9:58:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

And you have the mindset that despite Cousins having a better defense than Teddy ever had here and still only managing to win 8 and 11 games, somehow Cousins has been held back by the D while Teddy was carried by it. You talk about how important Cousins is, and how risky it is to move on from him without having a really good QB to replace him, while simultaneously downplaying his impact on winning games. Just a strange thought process that doesn't make any sense.

Wait- if you are trying to make a case that the Vikings defense has been better during the time Kirk has been here than it was when Teddy was playing then we can’t have an honest discussion

I am making the case the first two seasons Kirk was here the defense was MUCH better, which is why I called out the win totals in those two years as opposed to the last two. If you can't read an entire post without commenting on it we can't have an honest discussion.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:13:16 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 11:13:16 GMT -6

Ill settle the debate for you guys..Kirk is not the reason we are .500 this year and we are likely .300 without him THIS YEAR. It can also be true that moving on from Kirk and starting over with a rookie QB contract can possibly get us closer to the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl. If you dont think both things can be true then im going to assume you are just anti kirk or a kirk stan.

We did draft a QB last year. Mond seems to be the prototypical QB that fans want so an alternative is to keep Kirk as the benchmark and if Mond can beat cousins out for the spot next year then give him the job and trade Kirk.

Once Mond beats him out fair and square it takes away his bargaining chip and he will be more likely to rework his contract so another team can sign him.

I mean that seems like the best route. If it’s so easy to replace him with someone better then just keep him until it happens.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:15:07 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 11:15:07 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 11:11:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Dec 22, 2021 11:00:56 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Wait- if you are trying to make a case that the Vikings defense has been better during the time Kirk has been here than it was when Teddy was playing then we can’t have an honest discussion

I am making the case the first two seasons Kirk was here the defense was MUCH better, which is why I called out the win totals in those two years as opposed to the last two. If you can't read an entire post without commenting on it we can't have an honest discussion.

You are going to be in small company if you believe that.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:18:46 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 22, 2021 11:18:46 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 11:13:16 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Ill settle the debate for you guys..Kirk is not the reason we are .500 this year and we are likely .300 without him THIS YEAR. It can also be true that moving on from Kirk and starting over with a rookie QB contract can possibly get us closer to the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl. If you dont think both things can be true then im going to assume you are just anti kirk or a kirk stan.

We did draft a QB last year. Mond seems to be the prototypical QB that fans want so an alternative is to keep Kirk as the benchmark and if Mond can beat cousins out for the spot next year then give him the job and trade Kirk.

Once Mond beats him out fair and square it takes away his bargaining chip and he will be more likely to rework his contract so another team can sign him.

I mean that seems like the best route. If it’s so easy to replace him with someone better then just keep him until it happens.

This is where ppl have the wrong mindset..No one is saying that your going to replace Kirk with someone better..odds are most likely even if its a first rounder he probably will not be as good as Kirk. Everyone has a price though. I loved when we brought in Kirk from that 2017 team it was a clear upgrade over Case, but here we are today with nothing to show. Its either take a pay cut or move on. Cant keep doubling down each year. Im hoping Mond can be that guy, that would make things a lot easier but since he cant even sniff QB2 this year and didnt show anything in preseason not going to get my hopes up.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -6

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Post by andhesloose28 on Dec 22, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 10:57:32 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Dec 22, 2021 10:30:34 GMT -6 pinfante79 said:

You should add drafting a rookie QB could more likely than win a Superbowl lead to wasting the end of Dalvin's and Thielen's prime, and lead to pissing Jefferson off and him requesting a trade at some point....

It's a possibility...

Don't like Kirk? Fine whatever... But bring me the next retread at fair value you shouldn't need the next Mahomes to compete for a championship when you have the weapons we have...

Don't look, but when KC won the Super Bowl with Mahomes they had the 7th ranked defense. What am I thinkng, it doesn't matter. It's not like Brady had the 8th ranked defense last year. Wait, he did. Nevermind. It's all the QB. Not like KC doesn't have the 8th ranked defense this year. Wait, they do. What am I thinking. See, the QB makes the defense better. Unless it's Rodgers the last 12 years. He wasn't able to elevate his defense over the hump into the top 10 until this year.

Bingo you get its a team game. So much praise/hate is put on the QB its comical. My only knock on Kirk right now is his contract. Do you continue to keep paying him top dollar and hanging on to this "dream" that our TEAM is a contender? I get it we have the talent on offense but the defense is pretty far behind to be a legit team. No Mond or whoever our next QB may not be as good as Kirk but you have to pull the plug and make a huge decision at some point to get over that hump. You look at the broncos, thats a perfect team to grab Kirk, they have the defense in place and weapons on offense. Right now Teddy and Lock are holding them back big time. I really dont know the solution to this team, and im not trying to sound like its on Kirk by any means. Id get rid of Kirk, Zim and Rick if I had a choice. Enough is enough you need new eyes and direction here.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:30:30 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 22, 2021 11:30:30 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 9:58:17 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

And you have the mindset that despite Cousins having a better defense than Teddy ever had here and still only managing to win 8 and 11 games, somehow Cousins has been held back by the D while Teddy was carried by it. You talk about how important Cousins is, and how risky it is to move on from him without having a really good QB to replace him, while simultaneously downplaying his impact on winning games. Just a strange thought process that doesn't make any sense.

Currently the Vikings defense in ppg this year is 23rd. Last year it was 29. Teddy had 11 and 5. Kirks first two years it was 9 and 5. Green Bays defense is currently 10th. Last year it was 13th and the year before 9th. A 23rd ranked defense will get you to .500 if you are lucky. Put Tom Brady on the Lions and they maybe go to .500. But alas, the defense doesn't matter. Only QB play matters in wins.

See when Teddy had the Number 5 defense the Vikings went 11-5 and lost a WC. When Cousins had the number 5 they went 10-6 and lost the Division playoff game.

So I'm wondering where is that better defense that Cousins has this year compared to Teddy?

Vikings defense is allowing around 25 ppg right now. That's a .500 team. It doesn't matter who the QB is. When Brady's defense gives up 25 ppg or more he is a .433 QB. But again I digress into stats that don't really matter when it comes to discussing win's and losses involving QB's.

Called it. The PPG stat is flawed stat. PPD excludes points by the D on offense, and points given up by the offense on D and doesn't punish offenses that have a high TOP and get fewer chances to score and it doesn't punish defenses for having to defend extra drives because their offense struggles to remain on the field.

Defensive PPD
2021: Currently 22, but will jump up after Monday's game
2020: 28th
2019: 6th
2018: 3rd
2017: 2nd
2016: 7th
2015: 13th
2014: 18th

And just for the record, the Viking's D has not given up 25 ppg, the Vikings as a whole, defense, STs and offense have given up 24.4.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:32:47 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 22, 2021 11:32:47 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 11:15:07 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

Dec 22, 2021 11:11:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I am making the case the first two seasons Kirk was here the defense was MUCH better, which is why I called out the win totals in those two years as opposed to the last two. If you can't read an entire post without commenting on it we can't have an honest discussion.

You are going to be in small company if you believe that.

I am going to be right if I believe that.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:35:20 GMT -6

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Post by suncoastvike on Dec 22, 2021 11:35:20 GMT -6

Currently the Vikings defense in ppg this year is 23rd. Last year it was 29. Teddy had 11 and 5. Kirks first two years it was 9 and 5. Green Bays defense is currently 10th. Last year it was 13th and the year before 9th. A 23rd ranked defense will get you to .500 if you are lucky. Put Tom Brady on the Lions and they maybe go to .500. But alas, the defense doesn't matter. Only QB play matters in wins.

See when Teddy had the Number 5 defense the Vikings went 11-5 and lost a WC. When Cousins had the number 5 they went 10-6 and lost the Division playoff game.

So I'm wondering where is that better defense that Cousins has this year compared to Teddy?

Vikings defense is allowing around 25 ppg right now. That's a .500 team. It doesn't matter who the QB is. When Brady's defense gives up 25 ppg or more he is a .433 QB. But again I digress into stats that don't really matter when it comes to discussing win's and losses involving QB's.

Called it. The PPG stat is flawed stat. PPD excludes points by the D on offense, and points given up by the offense on D and doesn't punish offenses that have a high TOP and get fewer chances to score and it doesn't punish defenses for having to defend extra drives because their offensquickly.mes to remain on the field.

Defensive PPD
2021: Currently 22, but will jump up after Monday's game
2020: 28th
2019: 6th
2018: 3rd
2017: 2nd
2016: 7th
2015: 13th
2014: 18th

And just for the record, the Viking's D has not given up 25 ppg, the Vikings as a whole, defense, STs and offense have given up 24.4.

Makes sense. But...they still do look kinda bad at the wrong times. It's not just how much but when as well.

If being a Viking fan was easy ~ everyone would do it.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:39:38 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 11:39:38 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 11:18:46 GMT -6 andhesloose28 said:

Dec 22, 2021 11:13:16 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said:

We did draft a QB last year. Mond seems to be the prototypical QB that fans want so an alternative is to keep Kirk as the benchmark and if Mond can beat cousins out for the spot next year then give him the job and trade Kirk.

Once Mond beats him out fair and square it takes away his bargaining chip and he will be more likely to rework his contract so another team can sign him.

I mean that seems like the best route. If it’s so easy to replace him with someone better then just keep him until it happens.

This is where ppl have the wrong mindset..No one is saying that your going to replace Kirk with someone better..odds are most likely even if its a first rounder he probably will not be as good as Kirk. Everyone has a price though. I loved when we brought in Kirk from that 2017 team it was a clear upgrade over Case, but here we are today with nothing to show. Its either take a pay cut or move on. Cant keep doubling down each year. Im hoping Mond can be that guy, that would make things a lot easier but since he cant even sniff QB2 this year and didnt show anything in preseason not going to get my hopes up.

But the mindset that led us to bring him in was that Case wasn’t good enough even with that elite defense to win a SB. That we were just a better QB away. The problem is that a better QB costs you money. That’s why we had to pay for Cousins. It’s because we suck at evaluating and developing QBs. Period. So we paid.

But the other side of the equation was that we had an elite defense and the expectation was that the defense would remain elite because Zimstone was a CB guru and an elite defensive mastermind. So while the offense is finally starting to look legitimate ( it will be elite if they ever get a decent OL) the defense has eroded and Zimstone has not developed new talent who can play at the level they did 4 years ago and that is the cause of the re ord.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:40:34 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 22, 2021 11:40:34 GMT -6

Currently the Vikings defense in ppg this year is 23rd. Last year it was 29. Teddy had 11 and 5. Kirks first two years it was 9 and 5. Green Bays defense is currently 10th. Last year it was 13th and the year before 9th. A 23rd ranked defense will get you to .500 if you are lucky. Put Tom Brady on the Lions and they maybe go to .500. But alas, the defense doesn't matter. Only QB play matters in wins.

See when Teddy had the Number 5 defense the Vikings went 11-5 and lost a WC. When Cousins had the number 5 they went 10-6 and lost the Division playoff game.

So I'm wondering where is that better defense that Cousins has this year compared to Teddy?

Vikings defense is allowing around 25 ppg right now. That's a .500 team. It doesn't matter who the QB is. When Brady's defense gives up 25 ppg or more he is a .433 QB. But again I digress into stats that don't really matter when it comes to discussing win's and losses involving QB's.

Called it. The PPG stat is flawed stat. PPD excludes points by the D on offense, and points given up by the offense on D and doesn't punish offenses that have a high TOP and get fewer chances to score and it doesn't punish defenses for having to defend extra drives because their offense struggles to remain on the field.

Defensive PPD
2021: Currently 22, but will jump up after Monday's game
2020: 28th
2019: 6th
2018: 3rd
2017: 2nd
2016: 7th
2015: 13th
2014: 18th

And just for the record, the Viking's D has not given up 25 ppg, the Vikings as a whole, defense, STs and offense have given up 24.4.

So the Vikings as a whole have given up the points. But when it comes down to Cousins win/loss record, it's all on him. Got it. See the problem. One hand people want to argue one thing, but when it comes to the QB, his record is based soley on his play. Interesting how that works.

So tell us. What's the Offensive PPD the last 7 years?

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 11:57:42 GMT -6 via mobile pinfante79 likes this

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Post by PurpleFloyd on Dec 22, 2021 11:57:42 GMT -6

Currently the Vikings defense in ppg this year is 23rd. Last year it was 29. Teddy had 11 and 5. Kirks first two years it was 9 and 5. Green Bays defense is currently 10th. Last year it was 13th and the year before 9th. A 23rd ranked defense will get you to .500 if you are lucky. Put Tom Brady on the Lions and they maybe go to .500. But alas, the defense doesn't matter. Only QB play matters in wins.

See when Teddy had the Number 5 defense the Vikings went 11-5 and lost a WC. When Cousins had the number 5 they went 10-6 and lost the Division playoff game.

So I'm wondering where is that better defense that Cousins has this year compared to Teddy?

Vikings defense is allowing around 25 ppg right now. That's a .500 team. It doesn't matter who the QB is. When Brady's defense gives up 25 ppg or more he is a .433 QB. But again I digress into stats that don't really matter when it comes to discussing win's and losses involving QB's.

Called it. The PPG stat is flawed stat. PPD excludes points by the D on offense, and points given up by the offense on D and doesn't punish offenses that have a high TOP and get fewer chances to score and it doesn't punish defenses for having to defend extra drives because their offense struggles to remain on the field.

Defensive PPD
2021: Currently 22, but will jump up after Monday's game
2020: 28th
2019: 6th
2018: 3rd
2017: 2nd
2016: 7th
2015: 13th
2014: 18th

And just for the record, the Viking's D has not given up 25 ppg, the Vikings as a whole, defense, STs and offense have given up 24.4.

One thing about stats is if you spend enough time you can make them say anything you want them to.

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2021 Kirk - The moment of truth Dec 22, 2021 12:08:53 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 22, 2021 12:08:53 GMT -6

Dec 22, 2021 11:57:42 GMT -6 PurpleFloyd said: