N'Keal Harry

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 11:36:14 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Jul 13, 2021 11:36:14 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2021 10:38:49 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jul 12, 2021 19:47:34 GMT -6 Drank said:

Let me try to be clearer.. If Hunter go down we screwed. The other end spot I don't think so and Weatherly is alright. I see high upside with Wonnum, Jones, Robinson as real high end caliber players. I trust all those guys more than Beebe, Bisi, or any of the other WR. I will hold off saying ISM doesn't have upside, but the other WRs 👎🏾 Besides maybe ISM Doo Doo on paper to me after the big 2. Where I question would they make many teams 53 opening day.

When you add in relying on 2 rookies on the OL and Dozier a inch from playing. Weatherly is better than Dozier I would rather him the weak link on defense than Dozier the weak link on offense, Dozier is unplayable if we trying to be good. We have more depth on defense position for position than offense IMO.

Yes to all, and what nags me is that this "great offseason" might actually be a case of stealing some expensive parts from the offense and using the cap space to buy a bunch of one-year-bargain guys for the defense. Waiving our starting LT (Reiff) - suicidal for most NFL teams, and our nominal replacement is Rashod Hill. Maybe Darrisaw will be a revelation, but it worries me how many teams passed on him. And everyone seems unconcerned about losing Rudolph - but if the OL isn't improved, won't his blocking be missed, if not his receiving? I'm just not convinced 6-3, 250-lb Tyler Conklin is going to do all that 6-6, 265-lb Rudolph did.

to be fair, Rudy was never a good blocker... but yes, I get your point. Lots of 1 year contracts on defense simply puts us back to 2020 in 2022.

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 12:24:32 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 12:24:32 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2021 10:38:49 GMT -6 Jor-El said:

Jul 12, 2021 19:47:34 GMT -6 Drank said:

Let me try to be clearer.. If Hunter go down we screwed. The other end spot I don't think so and Weatherly is alright. I see high upside with Wonnum, Jones, Robinson as real high end caliber players. I trust all those guys more than Beebe, Bisi, or any of the other WR. I will hold off saying ISM doesn't have upside, but the other WRs 👎🏾 Besides maybe ISM Doo Doo on paper to me after the big 2. Where I question would they make many teams 53 opening day.

When you add in relying on 2 rookies on the OL and Dozier a inch from playing. Weatherly is better than Dozier I would rather him the weak link on defense than Dozier the weak link on offense, Dozier is unplayable if we trying to be good. We have more depth on defense position for position than offense IMO.

Yes to all, and what nags me is that this "great offseason" might actually be a case of stealing some expensive parts from the offense and using the cap space to buy a bunch of one-year-bargain guys for the defense. Waiving our starting LT (Reiff) - suicidal for most NFL teams, and our nominal replacement is Rashod Hill. Maybe Darrisaw will be a revelation, but it worries me how many teams passed on him. And everyone seems unconcerned about losing Rudolph - but if the OL isn't improved, won't his blocking be missed, if not his receiving? I'm just not convinced 6-3, 250-lb Tyler Conklin is going to do all that 6-6, 265-lb Rudolph did.

Interesting points, I am not to worried about TE. I have faith in Irv and Conklin. We use both though, so it connects with WR. Instead on WRs we use 2 TEs. We thin after the two TEs who both will be like starters playing a lot. So actually maybe I should be more worried at TE like you said.

We have JJ, Thielen, Irv, and Conklin as our pass catchers. With no proven depth behind any of those 4. Could a unknown step up sure but it's risky. So that is 4 guys we relying on not to miss games. Plus the OL depth issues. There is a great chance when you hoping multiple guys stay healthy then one on DE. Also add in the fact of law of averages we didn't have many injuries on offense last year.

I like Darrisaw and Davis, but they are rookies, it may take them a bit and they may struggle some early.Plus that is another spot with no depth that you hoping no injuries. It is just highly unlikely all these guys stay healthy. On defense we more equipped to handle guys missing games, which is the nature of the game. Hill I am not to concerned with he can play if needed. So OT is fine. It is the interior that bothers me.

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2021 12:31:47 GMT -6 by Deleted

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 13:12:27 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 13:12:27 GMT -6

Let's breakdown a few positions so we see it as it is as a whole from top to bottom and compare. There is no question we double and tripled down clear down to #9 CB. While we might not even have a good #3 at WR unless ISM save us. What in the eff Boyd, Hand and Smith like our 6,7,8 CBs and I would take them over Beebe our current #3 WRs

1. JJ vs PP- PP may not be at his peak, but still starter caliber: advantage JJ
2. Thielen vs Dantzler- Cam has a chance to rise soon and this might be Breeland starting we deep: advantage Thielen
3. Beebe vs Mack- Mack is solid in the slot: advantage Mack
4. Bisi vs Breeland- Again Breeland is a proven starter and could very well be #2 and this Cam either way: advantage Breeland/Cam
5. ISM vs Gladney- Gladney may or may not play. Won't matter much I see him as the #5 regardless of if he is cleared or not: advantage Gladney and ISM is the one guy I think could be the #3 at WR. Gladney locked in at #5 IMO at best speaks to the depth levels
6. Osborn vs Hand- I like Hand more: advantage Hand , if Gladney is out and I moved Hand up I still would favor Hand at #5
7'Chisena vs Boyd- We way down at #7 spot still NFL caliber CBs weak WRs you catch my drift: advantage Boyd
8.Proehl vs Smith- Again Tye Smith has played in this league right now he get's the: advantage Smith
9. Whop vs Nickerson- see above: advantage Nickerson who has played
10.Mitchell vs Mabin/Henderson wash just now getting to shots in the dark at CB.

Like I been said this pisses me off about Zim and this is his doing. Only caring about his defense and saying f*ck the offense. All these CBs and shaky ass depth at WRs. So his group can kick the WRs ass all over the field in practice besides a few JJ and Thielen. The talent depth difference is ridiculous. Put something back on the offense sh*t. Add another WR to offset some of my concerns. Every team likes guys and then the real season starts and you find yourself with injuries and shorthanded prepare for that. Wouldn't you rather get a guy in now instead of September? So he can learn the playbook and get connected with Kirk for when the real bullets fly.

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2021 13:39:20 GMT -6 by Deleted

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 13:39:34 GMT -6 Jor-El likes this

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Post by Uncle on Jul 13, 2021 13:39:34 GMT -6

While there's no doubting that the 2021 CB unit is deeper than the WR room, I'm thinking the line of thought w/ the Vikings coaching staff is that if they can get the 2021 defense playing at the level the 2017 defense was, then they don't need to have a deep WR core.

Here are the 2017 Vikings leading receivers:

Thielen: 91 rec, 1,276 yds, 4 TD
Diggs: 64 rec, 849 yds, 8 TD
Rudolph: 57 rec, 532 yds, 8 TD
McKinnon: 41 rec, 421 yds, 2 TD
Treadwell: 20 rec, 200 yds, 0 TD
J Wright: 18 rec, 198 yds, 2 TD

So past the "big 2" in Thielen & Diggs, the 3rd and 4th-leading WR's (in terms of receptions) in 2017 were Rudy and McKinnon. the WR3 / WR4 spots only garnered 38 rec and less than 400 yds the entire season. And that's with Diggs going down 2 games that season, too (he only played/started in 14 games in 2017).

Of course, the big elephant in the room is Zimmer/Patterson getting the 2021 Vikings defense back to the ballpark of the 2017 defense....that, and Irv Smith stepping up in 2021 to take Rudy's 57 rec, 500+ yds and 8 TD's.

We've been discussing all offseason long about the question-marks of that line of thought considering the 2017 Vikings defense was "built" from 2014-2016 and some key pieces of the 2021 Vikings defense is made-up of some of those 2014-2016 parts with some 1-2 yr "rentals" sprinkled in there. Can those short-term "rentals" gel w/ the 2014-2016 "core" players to recreate that 2017 Vikings defense?

If so, then WR3 and WR4 become somewhat low priorities in terms of offensive receptions if Smith/Conklin and Cook/Mattison can replace the production of Rudy & McKinnon from 2017....

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 13:55:16 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 13:55:16 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2021 13:39:34 GMT -6 Uncle said:

While there's no doubting that the 2021 CB unit is deeper than the WR room, I'm thinking the line of thought w/ the Vikings coaching staff is that if they can get the 2021 defense playing at the level the 2017 defense was, then they don't need to have a deep WR core.

Here are the 2017 Vikings leading receivers:

Thielen: 91 rec, 1,276 yds, 4 TD
Diggs: 64 rec, 849 yds, 8 TD
Rudolph: 57 rec, 532 yds, 8 TD
McKinnon: 41 rec, 421 yds, 2 TD
Treadwell: 20 rec, 200 yds, 0 TD
J Wright: 18 rec, 198 yds, 2 TD

So past the "big 2" in Thielen & Diggs, the 3rd and 4th-leading WR's (in terms of receptions) in 2017 were Rudy and McKinnon. the WR3 / WR4 spots only garnered 38 rec and less than 400 yds the entire season. And that's with Diggs going down 2 games that season, too (he only played/started in 14 games in 2017).

Of course, the big elephant in the room is Zimmer/Patterson getting the 2021 Vikings defense back to the ballpark of the 2017 defense....that, and Irv Smith stepping up in 2021 to take Rudy's 57 rec, 500+ yds and 8 TD's.

We've been discussing all offseason long about the question-marks of that line of thought considering the 2017 Vikings defense was "built" from 2014-2016 and some key pieces of the 2021 Vikings defense is made-up of some of those 2014-2016 parts with some 1-2 yr "rentals" sprinkled in there. Can those short-term "rentals" gel w/ the 2014-2016 "core" players to recreate that 2017 Vikings defense?

If so, then WR3 and WR4 become somewhat low priorities in terms of offensive receptions if Smith/Conklin and Cook/Mattison can replace the production of Rudy & McKinnon from 2017....

They are wrong. Now I agree with the defense moves. My argument is not that it is also add to offense. Those teams didn't field Super Bowl teams. We not trying to get to those levels we trying to pass those levels to be champs.

It is the probability of a injury and not adding a more sure proven guy to offset the all in approach we seem to be doing especially on defense. We prepared for the injuries that are bound to happen at most spots on defense. Not so much on offense and the likelihood we stay so healthy on offense is not promising. The starters are fine, even though I would love to add a few more 3 WR sets in as well if healthy. But if any of the top 2 WRs or top 2 TEs miss significant time we will have issues. I mean ISM may be it I just want more depth. I have heard mixed things about ISM attitude.

This vanilla only two WRs make us too predictable, mix in both 2 TE set and 3 WR sets and ball out. I mean it is 2021 thicking the playbook. You are allowed to run multiple sets on offense and different personal to confuse and give the defense more to worry about. The key is to keep defenses off-balance and not knowing what you want to do and when.

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 14:36:18 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 14:36:18 GMT -6

It's almost that time though. It is what it is now, just given my opinion. We have to live with what guys we have. Maybe we stay healthy or every unknown back up is the right guy at #3 WR and the OL. I have my doubts, but I have no choice, but to hope they are right.

The problem is if those issues pop up I have a right to b*tch and complain about their stupidity, because I see it a 100 miles a way. I don't want to here the excuse that how could Zim and Rick control the injuries that it is beyond their control. All they have to do is look at the depth chart to see it. This don't necessarily mean a season ender neither. All it takes is a few games to make or miss the playoffs or wild card or home field advantage.

Not saying Westbrook or more depth on the OL could hold up 16 games without a huge drop off most teams can't lose their best for 12 games and be the same. A guy like Westbrook if healthy combined with ISM though could keep you good for like 3 games, which could be the difference in a seasons big picture. Same with a guy like Easton instead of Blowzier. A guy that can play adequate football if need be for a few games and still give you a chance. I don't like the eggs in one basket approach. Especially when you have money and options to add a few more depth upgrades, who can help you in stretches.

Then the added wrinkles that a #3 like Westbrook or Fitz could bring along with 2 TEs and Cook/Mattison gives you more bullets in the chamber for 17 games plus hopefully playoffs. It's a long season a marathon not a sprint. You have to be prepared as much as possible for the long grind.

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2021 14:40:18 GMT -6 by Deleted

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 14:54:43 GMT -6

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Post by Uncle on Jul 13, 2021 14:54:43 GMT -6

Those teams didn't field Super Bowl teams. We not trying to get to those levels we trying to pass those levels to be champs.

Totally agree Drank . The problems is that the "bar" doesn't seem to be raised that high for those in the Front Office because we keep hearing that we want to get back to the playoffs. Just making the playoffs in 2021 shouldn't be the bar of success, IMO...

This vanilla only two WRs make us too predictable, mix in both 2 TE set and 3 WR sets and ball out. I mean it is 2021 thicking the playbook. You are allowed to run multiple sets on offense and different personal to confuse and give the defense more to worry about. The key is to keep defenses off-balance and not knowing what you want to do and when.

As most people know that have followed me for a while, I've been stating offseason-after-offseason that the single biggest offseason change that can improve the Vikings chances for success is Zimmer improving as a Gameday Head Coach...and that involves not only the defense but the mindset to allow the offense to function outside of the run-run-pass mentality. In 2017, when Cook went down, Shurmur called a really "balanced" offense between using both McKinnon & Murray in the running game and just enough Thielen/Diggs/Rudy in the passing game to keep opposing defenses off-balance enough to sustain drives and score points - all the while using someone like Case Keenum at the point.

So Zimmer giving up the defensive play-calling responsibilities, improving his Gameday Head Coaching abilities and embracing 21st-Century offensive football philosophies (the same way "Old School" college coaches Nick Saban and Ed Orgeron have done) would do so much more than whatever depth piece we could acquire at this point.

While I agree that a few more depth pieces would be nice - be it Dede Westbrook, Justin Houston etc - the overall talent is mostly there on the roster...and aside from avoiding significant injuries, the biggest thing keeping the team back is Zimmer himself, IMO.

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N'Keal Harry Jul 13, 2021 15:12:06 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 15:12:06 GMT -6

Jul 13, 2021 14:54:43 GMT -6 Uncle said:

Those teams didn't field Super Bowl teams. We not trying to get to those levels we trying to pass those levels to be champs.

Totally agree Drank . The problems is that the "bar" doesn't seem to be raised that high for those in the Front Office because we keep hearing that we want to get back to the playoffs. Just making the playoffs in 2021 shouldn't be the bar of success, IMO...

This vanilla only two WRs make us too predictable, mix in both 2 TE set and 3 WR sets and ball out. I mean it is 2021 thicking the playbook. You are allowed to run multiple sets on offense and different personal to confuse and give the defense more to worry about. The key is to keep defenses off-balance and not knowing what you want to do and when.

As most people know that have followed me for a while, I've been stating offseason-after-offseason that the single biggest offseason change that can improve the Vikings chances for success is Zimmer improving as a Gameday Head Coach...and that involves not only the defense but the mindset to allow the offense to function outside of the run-run-pass mentality. In 2017, when Cook went down, Shurmur called a really "balanced" offense between using both McKinnon & Murray in the running game and just enough Thielen/Diggs/Rudy in the passing game to keep opposing defenses off-balance enough to sustain drives and score points - all the while using someone like Case Keenum at the point.

So Zimmer giving up the defensive play-calling responsibilities, improving his Gameday Head Coaching abilities and embracing 21st-Century offensive football philosophies (the same way "Old School" college coaches Nick Saban and Ed Orgeron have done) would do so much more than whatever depth piece we could acquire at this point.

While I agree that a few more depth pieces would be nice - be it Dede Westbrook, Justin Houston etc - the overall talent is mostly there on the roster...and aside from avoiding significant injuries, the biggest thing keeping the team back is Zimmer himself, IMO.

Absolutely, I agree 💯 percent. Zim has to allow us to open up and be more balanced, unpredictable, and explosive. You are spot on and Saban is a fantastic example for adjusting Unc.

We are close and I see talent that is why I am being so hard on them. This a big year we need balance for sure. Shumer did a excellent job. Unc even on your punter issue yes. We could use a upgrade there, we need as many upgrades as possible. We know how hard it is when we get to the big boys.

Our expectations as a fan base needs to rise we have plenty of talent. Can't wait to see us bro, we just a few weeks away from go time SKOL. Yes Houston would be nice too. We loyal and been waiting patiently, I am ready for lift off let's shock the world, add as much talent as we can and field as strong as a 53 as possible for the long battle nice post.

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2021 15:15:55 GMT -6 by Deleted