DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him?

whoskmoon
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 15:32:14 GMT -6 Funkytown and comet52 like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2021 15:32:14 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 14:20:06 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2021 12:52:10 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Did Watson go to a ready made 13 win team and drop them to 8, 10, then 7 wins or did Watson go to a 9 win team and take them to the playoffs 2 of his 3 full years starting?

The guy took the 27th ranked real scoring defense to the divisional round in his 2nd full season as a starter and got beat by a KC team that put up 51 points on that terrible defense despite him throwing for nearly 400 yards and scoring 3 TDs and his offense putting up 31. Cousins took the 28th ranked scoring defense to 7 wins and watching the playoffs from home. One has proven they can win 10+ games with a bad defense, the other needs a top 5 one to win 10 games.

Are you really trying to argue there isn't a huge difference between Cousins and Watson here?

Let me ask you:
What did Cousins do that made the 13-3 Vikings an 8-7-1 team the next year? Actual,tangible things HE did, that made them worse?
Or did the ready-made 2017 Vikings that won 13 games have a better defense (#1 Points allowed to #9)?
A better, more balanced scheme?
A season not disrupted by a mental health breakdown by one of your star DEs that causes him to miss 5 games?
A season in which your Head Coach is not bickering in the media about the fact the OC he hired wouldn't run the type of offense he wanted?

More turnovers and the QB's inability to handle playing behind a poor line like the previous QB was able too. That is the biggest reason the Vikings went from a SB contender to out of the playoffs. The defense didn't really decline much in 2018. They went from #2 in scoring efficiency (a stat that doesn't include the pick sixes and fumble sixes by Cousins in 2018) to #3. The biggest decline from 2017 to 2018 was the offense, and the biggest change on the offense was the QB. Sure we had a new OC who put more emphasis on the QB playing a bigger role on offense, but that should have worked if the QB was good enough to carry a bigger role. He wasn't.

Watson is better than Cousins, pretty much based only on mobility and age, because their passing stats are virtually identical and their contracts are both bad going forward (and Watson will only get more expensive). So, the only trade I make his Watson for Cousins and Houston gets a couple thirds, maybe a second next year. Do you think they take it?

Do you think anyone outside of a diehard purple koolaid drinking Viking fan would agree with you on this? Any GM, HC or player? Teams are offering multiple first round picks for Watson, and I don't believe there is a team in the NFL who would take on Cousins and his contract, despite Cousins and Watson's contract being not that different for any team that trades for them over the next 2 seasons. 21 million in 2021 and 35 million in 2022 for Cousins, 10 million and 35 million in 2022 for Watson.

The Vikings actually save 10 million over 2 years if they did manage a trade with Houston, btw. A MASSIVE upgrade at QB and you save cap. Everyone around the league knows this, which is why Houston wouldn't even consider the offer you proposed.

VikingsBoss
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 16:22:58 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown and MidwinterViking like this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Jan 31, 2021 16:22:58 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 15:32:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2021 14:20:06 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Let me ask you:
What did Cousins do that made the 13-3 Vikings an 8-7-1 team the next year? Actual,tangible things HE did, that made them worse?
Or did the ready-made 2017 Vikings that won 13 games have a better defense (#1 Points allowed to #9)?
A better, more balanced scheme?
A season not disrupted by a mental health breakdown by one of your star DEs that causes him to miss 5 games?
A season in which your Head Coach is not bickering in the media about the fact the OC he hired wouldn't run the type of offense he wanted?

More turnovers and the QB's inability to handle playing behind a poor line like the previous QB was able too. That is the biggest reason the Vikings went from a SB contender to out of the playoffs. The defense didn't really decline much in 2018. They went from #2 in scoring efficiency (a stat that doesn't include the pick sixes and fumble sixes by Cousins in 2018) to #3. The biggest decline from 2017 to 2018 was the offense, and the biggest change on the offense was the QB. Sure we had a new OC who put more emphasis on the QB playing a bigger role on offense, but that should have worked if the QB was good enough to carry a bigger role. He wasn't.

Watson is better than Cousins, pretty much based only on mobility and age, because their passing stats are virtually identical and their contracts are both bad going forward (and Watson will only get more expensive). So, the only trade I make his Watson for Cousins and Houston gets a couple thirds, maybe a second next year. Do you think they take it?

Do you think anyone outside of a diehard purple koolaid drinking Viking fan would agree with you on this? Any GM, HC or player? Teams are offering multiple first round picks for Watson, and I don't believe there is a team in the NFL who would take on Cousins and his contract, despite Cousins and Watson's contract being not that different for any team that trades for them over the next 2 seasons. 21 million in 2021 and 35 million in 2022 for Cousins, 10 million and 35 million in 2022 for Watson.

The Vikings actually save 10 million over 2 years if they did manage a trade with Houston, btw. A MASSIVE upgrade at QB and you save cap. Everyone around the league knows this, which is why Houston wouldn't even consider the offer you proposed.

I know Houston wouldn't take it. That is the point, I don't want Watson because he isn't a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins. So, I am not mortgaging my franchise's future for a slight upgrade at QB. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't go 4-12. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't blow 24-0 playoff leads.

If Watson is such a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins, what would the Vikings offense look like next year? They go from 26.9 ppg to what? 30? 4800 yards and 33 TDs for a 4-12 squad are his career bests. Put up his best numbers for his worst team? Pad Statford and Garbage Time Kirk Cousins indeed.

The whole point is moot because the Vikings don't have enough ammunition to trade for him anyway. Who really wants him, who feels QB is the last piece, or might be losing their guy AND has lots of picks and lots of cap room to build around him. Miami? The New York teams? The Bears? The 49ers? The Steelers? The Colts? What puts the Vikings in a position to be able to outbid any of those teams?

The only team LIKELY to get Deshaun Watson and be any good next year is Miami, because Miami was good this year-end Watson is better than Fitzpatrick and way better than Tagovailoa. Put a really good defense out there, and add Deshaun Watson to a below average offense? Make them average to good? Yeah Miami would make some noise next year.

The Jets will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.
The Giants will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.
The Texans, should they find a way to mollify him, will still suck, because we know Watson isn't good enough to change that.

And, if Kirk Cousins plays somewhere else next year? He'll throw for 4000 yards and 25-30 TDs, and his franchise's success will be largely determined by how good the pieces around him are. If he goes somewhere that just got a bunch of draft picks because of the Deshaun Watson trade, they'll probably be pretty good.

If he stays here, and the Vikings find a way to solidify the offensive line and Danielle Hunter and Michael Pierce can get the defense back to even average? They will probably be pretty good. And you don't even have to trade your next 4 #1 picks to do it.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2021 18:01:09 GMT -6 by VikingsBoss

The Cardinals have knocked the Vikings out of the playoffs! NO!-Paul Allen, December 28th, 2003

vikingpwr
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 16:58:27 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by vikingpwr on Jan 31, 2021 16:58:27 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 14:20:06 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Let me ask you:
What did Cousins do that made the 13-3 Vikings an 8-7-1 team the next year? Actual,tangible things HE did, that made them worse?
Or did the ready-made 2017 Vikings that won 13 games have a better defense (#1 Points allowed to #9)?
A better, more balanced scheme?
A season not disrupted by a mental health breakdown by one of your star DEs that causes him to miss 5 games?
A season in which your Head Coach is not bickering in the media about the fact the OC he hired wouldn't run the type of offense he wanted?

People have been claiming that the 2018 team was essentially the same team as the 2017 team for the longest time. I don't believe that is the case. Many teams don't stay the same like they did in the past. Especially before free agency was introduced 1993. And it's not just the players moving around, it's the coaches as well.

A few things you left out:
The 2017 OC Pat Shurmur was coaching the NY Giants in 2018. DeFilippo was our 2018 OC. BIG difference there.

The 2017 OL coach/run game coordinator Tony Sparano died right before the 2018 season. The OL coaches were Barone and Janocko. BIG difference there.

The 2017 starting RG Joe Berger retired. Mike Remmers was the RG in 2018.

The 2017 starting LG Nick Easton suffered a neck injury in training camp and was put on injured reserve the 2018 season. Tom Compton was the starting LG in 2018.

Terence Newman didn't play in 2018....he was a DB coach. Check out his 2017 PFF grade....

2017 starting SS Andrew Sendejo played only 5 games in 2018. Check out his 2017 PFF grade. Kearse and Iloka filled in.

The 2017 kicker, punter and holder all changed in 2018......FWIW

I'm sure I missed a few others, but my point still stands, Cousins didn't just show up and play for the 13-3 2017 Viking team in 2018. He's was a definitely a upgrade from Case Keenum but far from the missing piece to a SB contending team.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2021 17:01:24 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

justonebeforeidie
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 17:05:13 GMT -6

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Post by justonebeforeidie on Jan 31, 2021 17:05:13 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 16:22:58 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2021 15:32:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

More turnovers and the QB's inability to handle playing behind a poor line like the previous QB was able too. That is the biggest reason the Vikings went from a SB contender to out of the playoffs. The defense didn't really decline much in 2018. They went from #2 in scoring efficiency (a stat that doesn't include the pick sixes and fumble sixes by Cousins in 2018) to #3. The biggest decline from 2017 to 2018 was the offense, and the biggest change on the offense was the QB. Sure we had a new OC who put more emphasis on the QB playing a bigger role on offense, but that should have worked if the QB was good enough to carry a bigger role. He wasn't.

Do you think anyone outside of a diehard purple koolaid drinking Viking fan would agree with you on this? Any GM, HC or player? Teams are offering multiple first round picks for Watson, and I don't believe there is a team in the NFL who would take on Cousins and his contract, despite Cousins and Watson's contract being not that different for any team that trades for them over the next 2 seasons. 21 million in 2021 and 35 million in 2022 for Cousins, 10 million and 35 million in 2022 for Watson.

The Vikings actually save 10 million over 2 years if they did manage a trade with Houston, btw. A MASSIVE upgrade at QB and you save cap. Everyone around the league knows this, which is why Houston wouldn't even consider the offer you proposed.

I know Houston wouldn't take it. That is the point, I don't want Watson because he isn't a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins. So, I am not mortgaging my franchise's future for a slight upgrade at QB. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't go 4-12. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't blow 24-0 playoff leads.

If Watson is such a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins, what would the Vikings offense look like next year? They go from 26.9 ppg to what? 30? 4800 yards and 33 TDs for a 4-12 squad are his career bests. Put up his best numbers for his worst team? Pad Statford and Garbage Time Kirk Cousins indeed.

The whole point is moot because the Vikings don't have enough ammunition to trade for him anyway. Who really wants him, who feels QB is the last piece, or might be losing their guy AND has lots of picks and lots of cap room to build around him. Miami? The New York teams? The Bears? The 49ers? The Steelers? The Colts? What puts the Vikings in a position to be able to outbid any of those teams?

The only team LIKEKY to get Deshaun Watson and be any good next year is Miami, because Miami was good this year-end Watson is better than Fitzpatrick and way better than Tagovailoa. Put a really good defense out there, and add Deshaun Watson to a below average offense? Make them average to good? Yeah Miami would make some noise next year.

The Jets will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.
The Giants will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.
The Texans, should they find a way to mollify him, will still suck, because we know Watson isn't good enough to change that.

And, if Kirk Cousins plays somewhere else next year? He'll throw for 4000 yards and 25-30 TDs, and his franchise's success will be largely determined by how good the pieces around him are. If he goes somewhere that just got a bunch of draft picks because of the Deshaun Watson trade, they'll probably be pretty good.

If he stays here, and the Vikings find a way to solidify the offensive line and Danielle Hunter and Michael Pierce can get the defense back to even average? They will probably be pretty good. And you don't even have to trade your next 4 #1 picks to do it.

He is massive upgrade...Just mobility and pocket awareness alone..Not to mention a leader on off the field

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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 18:05:38 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown likes this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Jan 31, 2021 18:05:38 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 17:05:13 GMT -6 justonebeforeidie said:

Jan 31, 2021 16:22:58 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

I know Houston wouldn't take it. That is the point, I don't want Watson because he isn't a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins. So, I am not mortgaging my franchise's future for a slight upgrade at QB. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't go 4-12. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't blow 24-0 playoff leads.

If Watson is such a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins, what would the Vikings offense look like next year? They go from 26.9 ppg to what? 30? 4800 yards and 33 TDs for a 4-12 squad are his career bests. Put up his best numbers for his worst team? Pad Statford and Garbage Time Kirk Cousins indeed.

The whole point is moot because the Vikings don't have enough ammunition to trade for him anyway. Who really wants him, who feels QB is the last piece, or might be losing their guy AND has lots of picks and lots of cap room to build around him. Miami? The New York teams? The Bears? The 49ers? The Steelers? The Colts? What puts the Vikings in a position to be able to outbid any of those teams?

The only team LIKEKY to get Deshaun Watson and be any good next year is Miami, because Miami was good this year-end Watson is better than Fitzpatrick and way better than Tagovailoa. Put a really good defense out there, and add Deshaun Watson to a below average offense? Make them average to good? Yeah Miami would make some noise next year.

The Jets will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.
The Giants will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.
The Texans, should they find a way to mollify him, will still suck, because we know Watson isn't good enough to change that.

And, if Kirk Cousins plays somewhere else next year? He'll throw for 4000 yards and 25-30 TDs, and his franchise's success will be largely determined by how good the pieces around him are. If he goes somewhere that just got a bunch of draft picks because of the Deshaun Watson trade, they'll probably be pretty good.

If he stays here, and the Vikings find a way to solidify the offensive line and Danielle Hunter and Michael Pierce can get the defense back to even average? They will probably be pretty good. And you don't even have to trade your next 4 #1 picks to do it.

He is massive upgrade...Just mobility and pocket awareness alone..Not to mention a leader on off the field

Leaders don't demand trades.

The Cardinals have knocked the Vikings out of the playoffs! NO!-Paul Allen, December 28th, 2003

justonebeforeidie
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 18:10:09 GMT -6

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Post by justonebeforeidie on Jan 31, 2021 18:10:09 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 18:05:38 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2021 17:05:13 GMT -6 justonebeforeidie said:

He is massive upgrade...Just mobility and pocket awareness alone..Not to mention a leader on off the field

Leaders don't demand trades.

Leaders do if they get back stabbed by ownership mgmt etc.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2021 18:11:40 GMT -6 by justonebeforeidie

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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 18:26:10 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown likes this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Jan 31, 2021 18:26:10 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 18:10:09 GMT -6 justonebeforeidie said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:05:38 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Leaders don't demand trades.

Leaders do if they get back stabbed by ownership mgmt etc.

No. You can be justified in your actions, but you cannot claim to be a leader of a locker room while you are demanding you be moved out of that locker room.

The Cardinals have knocked the Vikings out of the playoffs! NO!-Paul Allen, December 28th, 2003

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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 18:40:04 GMT -6

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Post by justonebeforeidie on Jan 31, 2021 18:40:04 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 18:26:10 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2021 18:10:09 GMT -6 justonebeforeidie said:

Leaders do if they get back stabbed by ownership mgmt etc.

No. You can be justified in your actions, but you cannot claim to be a leader of a locker room while you are demanding you be moved out of that locker room.

Or you can lead by example...in this case

justonebeforeidie Practice Squad Posts: 132 Likes: 85	DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 18:55:52 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by justonebeforeidie on Jan 31, 2021 18:55:52 GMT -6 houston.sportsmap.com/heres-how-deshaun-watson-is-taking-another-step-as-the-leader-of-the-texans

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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 19:30:07 GMT -6 via mobile Danchat likes this

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Post by wxman91 on Jan 31, 2021 19:30:07 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 16:58:27 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Jan 31, 2021 14:20:06 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Let me ask you:
What did Cousins do that made the 13-3 Vikings an 8-7-1 team the next year? Actual,tangible things HE did, that made them worse?
Or did the ready-made 2017 Vikings that won 13 games have a better defense (#1 Points allowed to #9)?
A better, more balanced scheme?
A season not disrupted by a mental health breakdown by one of your star DEs that causes him to miss 5 games?
A season in which your Head Coach is not bickering in the media about the fact the OC he hired wouldn't run the type of offense he wanted?

People have been claiming that the 2018 team was essentially the same team as the 2017 team for the longest time. I don't believe that is the case. Many teams don't stay the same like they did in the past. Especially before free agency was introduced 1993. And it's not just the players moving around, it's the coaches as well.

A few things you left out:
The 2017 OC Pat Shurmur was coaching the NY Giants in 2018. DeFilippo was our 2018 OC. BIG difference there.

The 2017 OL coach/run game coordinator Tony Sparano died right before the 2018 season. The OL coaches were Barone and Janocko. BIG difference there.

The 2017 starting RG Joe Berger retired. Mike Remmers was the RG in 2018.

The 2017 starting LG Nick Easton suffered a neck injury in training camp and was put on injured reserve the 2018 season. Tom Compton was the starting LG in 2018.

Terence Newman didn't play in 2018....he was a DB coach. Check out his 2017 PFF grade....

2017 starting SS Andrew Sendejo played only 5 games in 2018. Check out his 2017 PFF grade. Kearse and Iloka filled in.

The 2017 kicker, punter and holder all changed in 2018......FWIW

I'm sure I missed a few others, but my point still stands, Cousins didn't just show up and play for the 13-3 2017 Viking team in 2018. He's was a definitely a upgrade from Case Keenum but far from the missing piece to a SB contending team.

2017 was the only season in the last, what, 8 years that the OL was decent at the T position (Reiff/Remmers) and the interior (Berger/Easton). It wasn’t just Keenum running around. It all fell apart when Easton went down, they tried Remmers on the inside, and Berger retired.

By the way, Mike Remmers is the starting LT in the Super Bowl next weekend. Maybe our dipsh*t coaches shouldn’t have moved him inside.

whoskmoon
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 19:41:24 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2021 19:41:24 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 16:22:58 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2021 15:32:14 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

More turnovers and the QB's inability to handle playing behind a poor line like the previous QB was able too. That is the biggest reason the Vikings went from a SB contender to out of the playoffs. The defense didn't really decline much in 2018. They went from #2 in scoring efficiency (a stat that doesn't include the pick sixes and fumble sixes by Cousins in 2018) to #3. The biggest decline from 2017 to 2018 was the offense, and the biggest change on the offense was the QB. Sure we had a new OC who put more emphasis on the QB playing a bigger role on offense, but that should have worked if the QB was good enough to carry a bigger role. He wasn't.

Do you think anyone outside of a diehard purple koolaid drinking Viking fan would agree with you on this? Any GM, HC or player? Teams are offering multiple first round picks for Watson, and I don't believe there is a team in the NFL who would take on Cousins and his contract, despite Cousins and Watson's contract being not that different for any team that trades for them over the next 2 seasons. 21 million in 2021 and 35 million in 2022 for Cousins, 10 million and 35 million in 2022 for Watson.

The Vikings actually save 10 million over 2 years if they did manage a trade with Houston, btw. A MASSIVE upgrade at QB and you save cap. Everyone around the league knows this, which is why Houston wouldn't even consider the offer you proposed.

I know Houston wouldn't take it. That is the point, I don't want Watson because he isn't a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins. So, I am not mortgaging my franchise's future for a slight upgrade at QB. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't go 4-12. Massive upgrades over Cousins don't blow 24-0 playoff leads.

If Watson is such a MASSIVE upgrade over Cousins, what would the Vikings offense look like next year? They go from 26.9 ppg to what? 30? 4800 yards and 33 TDs for a 4-12 squad are his career bests. Put up his best numbers for his worst team? Pad Statford and Garbage Time Kirk Cousins indeed.

Watson didn't blow a 24-0 playoff lead, his defense did when they gave up 51. I also don't remember Cousin's teammates ever apologizing to him for wasting one of his seasons like Watson's teammate did to him when he went 4-12.

If he were on the Vikings their offense would go from 10th to top 5 and most importantly be a good playoff offense instead of just a good regular season offense. One that can beat good defenses instead of beat up on one of the easiest defensive schedules in the NFL like we did this year. This team would instantly jump to being in the conversation for winning the NFC North instead of hoping for a 9 win WC spot like we will be next year. To top that off we would have the best or 2nd best QB in the NFC in the playoffs. Instead of being the underdog at QB in the playoffs people would be talking about our QB advantage for once. That matters, it matters a lot.

The whole point is moot because the Vikings don't have enough ammunition to trade for him anyway. Who really wants him, who feels QB is the last piece, or might be losing their guy AND has lots of picks and lots of cap room to build around him. Miami? The New York teams? The Bears? The 49ers? The Steelers? The Colts? What puts the Vikings in a position to be able to outbid any of those teams?

The only team LIKELY to get Deshaun Watson and be any good next year is Miami, because Miami was good this year-end Watson is better than Fitzpatrick and way better than Tagovailoa. Put a really good defense out there, and add Deshaun Watson to a below average offense? Make them average to good? Yeah Miami would make some noise next year.

The Jets will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.

The Giants will still suck and Watson isn't good enough to change that.

The Texans, should they find a way to mollify him, will still suck, because we know Watson isn't good enough to change that.

And, if Kirk Cousins plays somewhere else next year? He'll throw for 4000 yards and 25-30 TDs, and his franchise's success will be largely determined by how good the pieces around him are. If he goes somewhere that just got a bunch of draft picks because of the Deshaun Watson trade, they'll probably be pretty good.

If he stays here, and the Vikings find a way to solidify the offensive line and Danielle Hunter and Michael Pierce can get the defense back to even average? They will probably be pretty good. And you don't even have to trade your next 4 #1 picks to do it.

If the defense is average our ceiling is 9 wins. Cook's body won't hold up if he continues to be the focus of the offense and Cousins has proven he can't succeed when he is the focus. He just isn't good enough. Watson is. Every GM, HC and player in the NFL knows this which is why a 1st and Cousins isn't enough for Houston. If Cousins were as close to Watson as you seem to think he is, that should be enough, but it isn't close.

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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 19:42:27 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2021 19:42:27 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 19:30:07 GMT -6 wxman91 said:

Jan 31, 2021 16:58:27 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

People have been claiming that the 2018 team was essentially the same team as the 2017 team for the longest time. I don't believe that is the case. Many teams don't stay the same like they did in the past. Especially before free agency was introduced 1993. And it's not just the players moving around, it's the coaches as well.

A few things you left out:
The 2017 OC Pat Shurmur was coaching the NY Giants in 2018. DeFilippo was our 2018 OC. BIG difference there.

The 2017 OL coach/run game coordinator Tony Sparano died right before the 2018 season. The OL coaches were Barone and Janocko. BIG difference there.

The 2017 starting RG Joe Berger retired. Mike Remmers was the RG in 2018.

The 2017 starting LG Nick Easton suffered a neck injury in training camp and was put on injured reserve the 2018 season. Tom Compton was the starting LG in 2018.

Terence Newman didn't play in 2018....he was a DB coach. Check out his 2017 PFF grade....

2017 starting SS Andrew Sendejo played only 5 games in 2018. Check out his 2017 PFF grade. Kearse and Iloka filled in.

The 2017 kicker, punter and holder all changed in 2018......FWIW

I'm sure I missed a few others, but my point still stands, Cousins didn't just show up and play for the 13-3 2017 Viking team in 2018. He's was a definitely a upgrade from Case Keenum but far from the missing piece to a SB contending team.

2017 was the only season in the last, what, 8 years that the OL was decent at the T position (Reiff/Remmers) and the interior (Berger/Easton). It wasn’t just Keenum running around. It all fell apart when Easton went down, they tried Remmers on the inside, and Berger retired.

By the way, Mike Remmers is the starting LT in the Super Bowl next weekend. Maybe our dipsh*t coaches shouldn’t have moved him inside.

Weird, cause 2017 saw Keenum getting pressured more than 2018 Cousins despite Keenum getting rid of the ball much quicker. How does that happen with a superior line?

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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 19:56:41 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2021 19:56:41 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 16:58:27 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Jan 31, 2021 14:20:06 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Let me ask you:
What did Cousins do that made the 13-3 Vikings an 8-7-1 team the next year? Actual,tangible things HE did, that made them worse?
Or did the ready-made 2017 Vikings that won 13 games have a better defense (#1 Points allowed to #9)?
A better, more balanced scheme?
A season not disrupted by a mental health breakdown by one of your star DEs that causes him to miss 5 games?
A season in which your Head Coach is not bickering in the media about the fact the OC he hired wouldn't run the type of offense he wanted?

People have been claiming that the 2018 team was essentially the same team as the 2017 team for the longest time. I don't believe that is the case. Many teams don't stay the same like they did in the past. Especially before free agency was introduced 1993. And it's not just the players moving around, it's the coaches as well.

A few things you left out:
The 2017 OC Pat Shurmur was coaching the NY Giants in 2018. DeFilippo was our 2018 OC. BIG difference there.

The 2017 OL coach/run game coordinator Tony Sparano died right before the 2018 season. The OL coaches were Barone and Janocko. BIG difference there.

The 2017 starting RG Joe Berger retired. Mike Remmers was the RG in 2018.

The 2017 starting LG Nick Easton suffered a neck injury in training camp and was put on injured reserve the 2018 season. Tom Compton was the starting LG in 2018.

Terence Newman didn't play in 2018....he was a DB coach. Check out his 2017 PFF grade....

2017 starting SS Andrew Sendejo played only 5 games in 2018. Check out his 2017 PFF grade. Kearse and Iloka filled in.

The 2017 kicker, punter and holder all changed in 2018......FWIW

I'm sure I missed a few others, but my point still stands, Cousins didn't just show up and play for the 13-3 2017 Viking team in 2018. He's was a definitely a upgrade from Case Keenum but far from the missing piece to a SB contending team.

You forgot that we also got Cook back and upgraded at the 3 tech and FS with Anthony Harris being the 3rd highest graded safety in the NFL in 2018 over 11 games. Outside of a couple of games early in the season, the defense was playing at the same level as 2017. They lost us the Rams and got us a tie against the Pack, and I will even throw in the Buffalo game even though the offense contributed just as much to that loss.

That is 3 games, but we dropped 4.5 from the previous year. This, despite a significantly easier strength of schedule according to www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/index.htm.

An impact QB like Watson would have had that 2018 Vikings team as the 1 or 2 seed. They were good enough outside of QB to make a legit run.

Cousins didn't get them to the playoffs because he just doesn't have an impact on wins and losses they way really good QBs do. That is the difference between him and Watson. One makes his team better. One doesn't.

Danchat
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 22:33:22 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Jan 31, 2021 22:33:22 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 19:42:27 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Weird, cause 2017 saw Keenum getting pressured more than 2018 Cousins despite Keenum getting rid of the ball much quicker. How does that happen with a superior line?

I don't think that's true... I'm going to do some investigating on this. That doesn't seem to line up with this:

Per PFF

Vikings team pass block grade and rank since 2014:

2014: 72.4 (23rd)
2015: 67.9 (28th)
2016: 64.7 (30th)
2017: 71.9 (17th)
2018: 63.6 (27th)
2019: 63.0 (27th)
2020: 55.5 (29th)

I don't wish to drag this topic too far off the Watson thread, but here's a bit of digging I did:

(pressures from PFF's database)

I've been pitching the idea that the 2017 offensive line was considerably better than the 2018 variant, and as for pass blocking, the 2017 offensive line was clearly better. Please note that I only examined the O-line, and not the TEs/HB/blaming the QB for pressure - my intention is to focus just the offensive line - so it's possible the other positions made the pass blocking worse. The 2017 was not awful, especially as they enabled our run game of McKinnon & Murray to be a surprisingly good one. The interior of Easton-Elflein-Berger was pretty good.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2021 22:33:44 GMT -6 by Danchat

vikingpwr
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DeShaun Watson - Should we trade for him? Jan 31, 2021 22:44:41 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Jan 31, 2021 22:44:41 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2021 19:30:07 GMT -6 wxman91 said:

2017 was the only season in the last, what, 8 years that the OL was decent at the T position (Reiff/Remmers) and the interior (Berger/Easton). It wasn’t just Keenum running around. It all fell apart when Easton went down, they tried Remmers on the inside, and Berger retired.

By the way, Mike Remmers is the starting LT in the Super Bowl next weekend. Maybe our dipsh*t coaches shouldn’t have moved him inside.

The thing about Easton and Berger that gets lost in the whole scheme of things...they were both very versatile. No, they weren't pro bowlers as such but they both played center and guard. Rookie C Elflein got A LOT of help with those two. Call me old-fashion, but when it comes to offensive and defensive lines I'm a firm believer of that old saying, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" Reiff and Remmers played at their best natural positions and it worked. F the ranking, the 2017 OL was a decent unit and played well enough with our backup QB and backup RBs at the time to win 13 games. Shurmur and Sparano got the best out of what was available. Once Easton fractured his ankle in the 15th game against the Packers (16-0 win) the chemistry changed on the OL IMO. They started Remmers at LG And Hill at RT against the Saints and Eagles. It doesn't really matter........the Eagles beat the chit out of our D in the NFCCG. It's a shame we didn't have Sparano and most of that 2017 OL to start in 2018. Oh well.........

The last time Remmers was in a SB he got abused by the Denver D. Maybe he'll have better luck next weekend on the other side of the OL.........